Talk:Intervocalic alveolar flapping

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Linguistics / Phonetics   
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Linguistics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Phonetics Task Force.
 

[ɾ] [ɹ]

Hi. I am thinking of flapping as a type of assimilation in that the [-continuant] feature of /t/ & /d/ is assimilating to the [+cont] feature of the surrounding vowels. So, something like the "openness" of the vowels is influencing the duration of the closure and the strength of the tongue articulatory movement. Perhaps not assimilation in a canonical sense, but still seems rather so to me. Thoughts? — ishwar  (SPEAK) 18:49, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)

The problem is that |[ɾ]}} is probably still [-cont] (that's the most likely distinction between it and |[ɹ]}}, which is [+cont]). If flapping is caused by spreading a feature, the only possible feature would be [+sonorant], but since that's a major class feature, most theories of feature geometry won't allow it to spread except in total assimilation. I think it's preferable to treat flapping as a kind of lenition in a weak metrical position. --Angr 19:58, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hmm. That's interesting. Thanks for the note. Cheers! — ishwar  (SPEAK) 23:44, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)

Consonant Mutation in Turkish the same[edit]

Don't know if this really fits. I'm not a linguist but...

Isn't this known as consonant mutation? This happens alot in Turkish, with which I am very familiar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.139.241.33 (talk) 10:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

Removal of my notes[edit]

Angr, I thought it was fair to note the other mergers, so nobody gets confused. Any thoughts anybody?Cameron Nedland 13:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

As I said in my edit summary, I thought mentioning those mergers in this context is more likely to confuse people, not less likely. AFAIK all accents that have flapping also have the mergers in question; in fact, very few modern English accents don't. —Angr 14:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, you're right. I just wanted to help, it wasn't vandalism.Cameron Nedland 13:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I never thought it was vandalism! I hope I didn't give the impression I thought it was! I knew it was a good-faith edit; I just disagreed with its usefulness. —Angr 14:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, my bad! I, just thought it might be confusing to someone who doesn't have the vowel mergers to see those listed as homophones. I remember once reading that broad and rod don't rhyme, (in my accent they do) and I was pretty damn confused because no one clarified what accent they were talking about.Cameron Nedland 18:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Flapping after /l/[edit]

Do some people really pronounce faculty as [fækəɫɾi]? I'm an American linguist, and it seems to me I've never heard it and can when I try it it sounds totally foreign. Isn't this a mistake?

Hmm... for me (also American), it's more like [fækəɫdi] than [fækəɫɾi], but it's definitely not [fækəɫti] except in careful speech. —Angr 04:55, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
It almost depends on who I'm talking to, idk why though...Cameron Nedland 22:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I think I always pronounce it [fækəɫti] but I might not notice it if someone flaps the /t/. Maybe there's a better, more universal example. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I pronounce it with a t but the flap doesn't sound wrong to me. And [fækəɫdi] sounds off to me but substituting d for t seems pretty common. Maybe voiced consonants are easier to say between vowels or something.--66.153.117.118 (talk) 21:51, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

According to OED the flap T is [d][edit]

Oxford English Dictionary is using [d] for the flap t in the US English, and not [ɾ].

Protozoa entry in OED — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.71.88 (talk) 09:54, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Yup. What the OED doesn't understand about American English would fill volumes. Angr (talk) 10:37, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

This is impenetrable to the layperson[edit]

I'm taking a flying guess here, having been linked thru from an equally ill-exposited part of the [Shibboleth] article, that the subject of all this is how some dialets would pronounce the example words more closely to "Budder, Barder, Faculdy" (to British ears, or others that pronounce an intermediate T as "T")?

Is there a chance of putting a brief note to this effect (as well as pointing out that it's only an approximation, I suppose) in the main text so that the article makes at least a little sense without having to pull up and continually refer to (or learn... haha) the IPA list? I'm not a linguist, I've tried getting with it and it just doesn't stick.

Not sure where exactly to put it without starting a massive flamewar over my edit, so I'm leaving it as a suggestion for now. I'll let the experts figure it out ;-)

Thanks 87.114.113.143 (talk) 12:17, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

nt = nn???[edit]

I'm not a linguist, just an educated native speaker of American English. Still, I have to ask, where do people pronounce "banter" the same as "banner"? Likewise center/sinner, minty/mini, minty/many, planter/planner, and winter/winner. I've lived in 4 different areas of the US and traveled to most of the states. The only places I've been where these words are even close are places that I would characterize has having a string regional accent. You won't find anyone on national TV or Radio pronouncing those words the same unless they are a character in a fictional work or a "real person" from one of the regional dialect areas that have this trait.

I'd like for there to be at least a disclaimer noting that these "Homophonous pairs" are not necessarily homophonous across the majority of US speakers. At best I'd delete them entirely.

However, since I'm not close to expert on this topic, I'll leave it to someone who knows better to do the actual edit.

Jgro (talk) 05:29, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

The American South. It happens elsewhere too, I'm sure. The article says it's more often in rapid speech, so if someone says "Jesus is the [ˈsɪɾ̃ɚ] of our lives" and you ask them to repeat themselves, they'll say "Jesus is the [ˈsɪntɚ] of our lives" without the flapping. Still, it's pretty informal, so that would explain why you don't hear it on TV. — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 11:39, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Still, flapping, especially after n, isn't thoroughgoing in all places where it's conceivable. I'm enough of a southerner to make winter a homophone of winner, and likewise center and "senner" (I don't do the ɛ to ɪ before n thing), but I would never flap in rare words like banter or polymorphemic words like minty and planter. I think some of these sample homophones are hypothetical, not confirmed. Angr (talk) 21:41, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect examples?[edit]

I'm no linguist, but the examples in this passage seem completely nonsensical to me:

Flapping/tapping does not occur in most dialects when the /t/ or /d/ immediately precedes a stressed vowel, as in retail, but can flap/tap in this environment when it spans a word boundary, as in got it[ɡɑɾɪt]

The statement itself is basically true—a /t/ or /d/ before a stressed syllable is usually not flapped. But the examples don't seem to illustrate this at all. In both retail and got it, the stress is normally on the first syllable—the one preceding the /t/. Thus, these aren't actually examples of /t/ preceding a stressed syllable. Am I missing something? It seems like retail should be replaced with something like attempt or baton, and got it should be replaced with something like got over. Does anyone disagree with this change? —Caesura(t) 02:01, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Your suggestion sounds right to me. — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 12:42, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
OK, I've replaced those two examples. —Caesura(t) 19:18, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Flap vs tap transcription[edit]

Wasn't [ɽ] retroflex? If so, is the representation with symbols useful at all, or the recent edit by that IPA with 177 as first number would not be a better transcription of a flap? I believe it is about both alveolar sounds. Lguipontes (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I think technically the IPA doesn't make a distinction, so what 177 included was non-standard. Still, ɽ isn't correct either. — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 16:58, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
So, in your opinion, we should use the non-standard symbol, or none at all? Lguipontes (talk) 12:08, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
I'd say none at all. Flap consonant claims "For linguists that do make the distinction, the alveolar tap is transcribed as a fish-hook ar, [ɾ], while the flap is transcribed as a small capital dee, [ᴅ], which is not recognized by the IPA", but the claim is unsourced. AFAIK [ᴅ] is just the Americanist notation for [ɾ], and neither symbol is uniquely either a flap or a tap. Angr (talk) 12:19, 4 September 2012 (UTC)