Talk:Investiture Controversy

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TERRIBLE[edit]

This article is awful - like a bad A-level paper but with too many errors. THe claims in the opening paragraph are laughable. Please, can someone who knows something about this topic write a new piece?

Edits by 147.226.216.174[edit]

Reverted edits. None of the footnotes are accurate, I checked the books in question using Amazon Look Inside and they are bogus refrences. On further research found that the text is copyvio's from other websites. I'm curious if 147.226.216.174 will chime in here and explain why this was done, the intent seemed to be good, but the footnotes and copyrighted are clearly misleading. --Stbalbach 03:47, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Added a section on the English investiture controversy. Many elusive circumlocutions in bureaucratspeak need to be made more crisp and informative in this sometimes flaccid report. --Wetman 1 July 2005 20:35 (UTC)

WTF? "In addition, the Holy Roman Emperor had the special ability to appoint the pope". This line is nonsense and should be removed. The Bishops of Rome had been elected by the citizenry of the City up until 1059, when Nicholas II restricted the privilege to the Cardinal Priests of the Church. Solicitr (talk) 06:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
This claim was inserted by Wetman again, uncited and pointing to his pet proprietary church article, so I removed it again. Requires a verifiable and reliable source if it's going to stick. --Geoff Capp (talk) 00:16, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

"holy father"[edit]

I would like this article to include information on the rcc's pope's title. If someone can do that in wikipedia standard that would be nice.

The origin of the Roman Catholic title according to http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0038.html was "born" during the Investiture Controversy.

The qualifier “holy” underlines the spiritual dimension of this fatherhood exercised in the name of God; and we have already said that it does not imply a moral judgment on the person of the Pope. The expression “Holy Father” was born in the time of the controversy over lay investiture, and it seemed normal that in its becoming common usage in the acts of the chancery, the Roman Curia had then wished to underscore the spiritual and supernatural level of the mission of the Pope by adding the adjective “holy” — to defend implicitly the superiority of papal power over imperial power.
What is the connection of the assumed title with the Investiture Controversy? Isn't this part of the broader program discussed (badly so far) at Gregorian Reform? --Wetman 17:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Edits by 66.235.44.73[edit]

There is NO WAY that the Gregorian Reforms, begun in 1056, are not connected with the Great Schism of 1054. Indeed, the reason behind the Great Schism was Rome's aggressive assertion of Papal Primacy which the Greek Orthodox world could not stomach. This smacks of the very Papal Absolutism characterizing the Gregorian Reforms! Thus, it seems unambiguously clear beyond all doubt that in this period of the 1050s, a Papal Absolutism party took final control of the RCC, leading to a break with the Orthodox East (1054), the absolutist Gregorian Reforms (1056+), the crushing of then-Orthodox England (1066) still in communion with the Greek East, and the Investiture Controversy (1075+), and even the First Crusade (1095). During this period, the RCC aggressively shed all restraints to its absolutist powers and proclaimed itself the inerrant avatar of Almighty God on Earth for all peoples, to wit, Global Ruler. These assertions alienated all of its neighbors, leading to conflicts with the Orthodox World, England, Germany, and the Muslim World.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.235.44.73 (talkcontribs) .

Dominium mundi[edit]

Hi, I came across the article Dominium mundi at the list of requests for cleanup after translation. I know absolutely nothing about this topic, but as I worked on the lead section, I came across a few other articles (this one, Separation of church and state (medieval), and others) that seemed to overlap with it in various ways. I think it would be really helpful if someone with knowledge of the history of this period would take a look at the article and see if perhaps parts of it (or all of it) could be merged. - AdelaMae (talk - contribs) 06:56, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

An improvement walk (not an improvement drive)[edit]

  • I plan to chip in bits 'n pieces to this article, a little bit here and there over a longish time period. I knew nothing about this topic before encountering this article & so will be learning as I go. All and sundry who watch this page are cordially invited to let me know where I err. Later! Ling.Nut (talk) 13:39, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm gonna play with the WP:LEDE here in talk, 'cause I don't wanna completely uglify the article. I'll just be adding scraps and thoughts, and referencing them as best as I can. All or most of the footnotes would be moved to the body text of the article (and out of the lede) if/when this gets moved onto the article page... Don't take whatever you see below as anything other than a working scratchpad of thoughts:

The Investiture Controversy or Investiture Contest was the most significant conflict between Church and state in medieval Europe.

[NOTE: Oh... there wasn't any separation before then, and in fact, not before the 13th century... needs to be reworded].

In the 11th and 12th centuries, a series of popes challenged the authority of European monarchies over control of appointments, or investitures, of church officials such as bishops and abbots. Although the principal conflict began in 1075 between Pope Gregory VII and Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor, a brief but significant struggle over investiture also occurred between Henry I of England and the papacy of Paschal II in the years 1103 to 1107, and the issue played a minor role in the struggles between church and state in France as well. The entire controversy was finally resolved by the Concordat of Worms in 1122.

In the Holy Roman Empire, there was no clear separation between church and state... the High Churchmen had control over lands and money. They were literate and educated, and were an important administrative force of the empire,[1] and a counterbalance against the rebellious barons. Control over investiture, then, amounted to control over a significant income flow and a large amount of territory (more than one-third the empire)[2]...

By undercutting the Imperial power established by the Salian emperors, the controversy led to nearly 50 years of civil war in Germany, the triumph of the great dukes and abbots, and the disintegration of the Holy Roman Empire from which Germany would not recover until the unification of Germany in the 19th century.{{dooby-ooby-oobius}}

  1. ^ Spruyt 1996, p.48
  2. ^ Bishop 2001, p. 48
  • Bishop, Morris (2001). The Middle Ages. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. ISBN 061805703X.
  • Spruyt, Hendrik (1996). The sovereign state and its competitors: an analysis of systems change. Princeton University Press. ISBN 0691029105.

investiture... alive and well in China[edit]

Wow, I didn't know this:

Removal[edit]

I removed the following sentence: This radical departure from the balance of power of the Early Middle Ages, among the other Gregorian reforms, eliminated the practice of investiture, the divinely-appointed monarch's right to invest a ..."

There are four problems with that text:

  • the word "radical" implies that the changes were an innovation rather than a repudiation of uncanonical practices
  • "Balance of power": that a king should be one - the only one! - to appoint bishops in his realm doesn't look like balanced to me, more like something totally imbalanced. Sure, there was a time when the Papacy claimed total supremacy as under Boniface VIII (at least rhetorically) but what one can see in the aftermath of the Investiture Controversy was not an imbalanced distrubution of power but rather one balance two sides.
  • "eliminated the practice of investiture" - it did eliminate "lay investiture", not investiture as such, which strictly speaking cannot be eliminated.
  • "the divinely-appointed monarch's right to invest" both informs the reader that the monarch was appointed by God and that he had that right - both are quite contentious claims.

12:32, 20 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deposuit (talkcontribs)

.... a cat? ...[edit]

This article currently has a picture of a cat, described as a "medieval king" by the caption - this is clearly wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.144.197 (talk) 00:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Syntax[edit]

...their first step was to forcibly gain the papacy from the control of the emperor.

Gain? Do we mean "wrest" or "remove"? Sca (talk) 00:21, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Nobility leader[edit]

What is a "nobility leader"? The term is used twice in this article, but I can't find any evidence that it is English. Whatever it really means, I'm thinking it must be something wikilinkable. Ntsimp (talk) 20:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)