Talk:Irish-Scots

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2 December 2005. The result of the discussion was keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Articles for Lithuanian Scots and Polish Scots[edit]

Irish Scots, Jewish Scots and Italian Scots have been well covered, I believe it's time for articles regarding Polish and Lithuanian settlement in Scotland. It's not hard to find articles on the internet about both communities, the BBC have an excellent article on Lithuanian settlement in Lanarkshire in their Legacies site. The Polish also have sizeable communities in Scotland most notably in St. Andrews and other costal towns.

Hopefully this could lead to further articles and ideally Highland/Irish/Italian/Polish/Lithuanian/Jewish migrants in Glasgow, I believe there is great potential in this subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elitejcx (talkcontribs) 22:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


Why would there be an article on Highland migrants to Glasgow ? They're Scottish along with Glaswegians. Are we going to hyphenate them as Highland-Scottish now as well. What about Edinburgh-Scottish and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.203.0 (talk) 20:37, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Unreference additions[edit]

One "Brandubh Blacmath" (one of the many proven sock-puppets of POV merchant/Wikitroll User:Rms125a@hotmail.com - see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Rms125a@hotmail.com) has been adding his usual brand of highly-POV "fifth columnist" bullshit to this article. This may take some time, but let's look at this addition for a start:

"Many Scottish-born Irish Catholics have been demanding the right to vote in Irish elections (while maintaining the franchise in Scottish and British elections, of course). A step in this direction has already been taken by the nomination of Ray O'Hanlon, a fervent believer in multiple franchises, to the Irish Seanad."

Citation please? I've lived in Scotland all my life and I've never heard of a single Scottish-born Irish Catholic demanding the right to vote in Irish elections. Try "Ray O'Hanlon" Seanad multiple franchise and see what you get about Scottish people voting in Irish Elections - not a word.

Robert, put up or shut-up. And stop your pathetic pretence at being "Oirish Catholic" Brandath Blacdubh - your recent post at Talk:Celtic F.C. shows you caught red-handed. Camillus (talk) 23:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Update: I found this - [1], which is about proposals giving the right to vote to Irish emigrants (ie. born in Ireland) who have lived abroad for up to 20 years the right to vote in Irish elections. Perhaps this is the mole-hill that Branflake Blacmange has built his mountain out of? What other country doesn't have provisions for it's own citizens living abroad to vote? How the hell would this apply to Scottish citizens voting in Irish elections? How come all those Irish fifth-columnists have been demanding the right to vote and naeb'dy in Scotland has heard a peep o' it? Put up or shut up, Rms. Camillus (talk) 23:48, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Naeb'dy?? -- Wow!!. I don't know, maybe you should be reading the Irish Post (UK), Irish Voice (NYC), Irish Echo (NYC), et al, because I have certainly read about such efforts. I certainly didn't make it up.

In the Irish Post, I saw the pictures of Irish people protesting outside the Irish embassy demanding "emigre voting rights", and I have read all about such things in the NY Irish local weeklies. When/if the power-hungry Ray O'Hanlon becomes an "emigre" Irish senator then maybe someb'dy will hear of it, even in the Clydebank. Brandubh Blathmac 03:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Response[edit]

I read in the Irish Post (more than a decade ago, along with the photos and captions) of young UK-born "Irish" protesting and demonstrating for the franchise in Irish elections/referenda/etc.

Just b/c there is no article on the almost pathologically power hungry O'Hanlon, who has been a fervent backer of multiple franchises/emigrant voting rights (and multiple citizenships as well, knowing as he does that it is impossible to lose or relinquish Irish citizenship), doesn't mean there is no info. on him in print or online; there's a lot. And when I do provide sourced quotes (such as Mick Derrig), you delete or ignore them.

I am sorry you don't accept my Irishness ("Oirish"), but...

Brandubh Blathmac 05:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Got to laugh at this post by mister Blacbath :

For instance:

Notable Irish-Scots include James Connolly and comedian Billy Connolly.
This is untrue: Sean Connery does not consider himself Irish, and James Connolly did not consider himself a Scot.

Eh? How did Sean Connery get in there? Shurely Shome Mishtake?

Historical note
The following version is mostly accurate but I added certain facts that were not included, including the origination of the word "Scot" (what it really means in what language). I also include the fact that the word Caledonia is often used/sung by "Scottish" nationalists to describe their homeland.
Answer: It means "thief" or "raider" in Irish, a fact that Mr. McIlhenney, again chose not to mention, as he chose not to include the word Caledonia, which he has told me is obsolete ...

Look at the Scotland article : Scotland was the Land of the Gaels, "Gaels" being an old Welsh word for raider (not the same as "thief").

Regarding "Caledonia" - sure, Scots like to use this poetically, but regarding "often used/sung by Scottish nationalists" - ever heard of "Flower of Scotland", "Scotland the Brave", "Scots Wha Hae"? (need I go on)?

So Scots obviously have no problem describing themselves as "Scots", or are proud to be Gaels, no matter what some old yankee fantasists would have...

("Oirish" is often used in Scotland (and in Ireland) to describe those people who are "more Irish than the Irish", who have a fairy-tale, fantasy-land image of Ireland.)

Camillus (talk) 11:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

More unrefenced additions[edit]

In the UK census of 2001, the new category "Irish" was added to the list of ethnic 
background, by Tony Blair's Labour government, against the wishes of the vast majority
of the British population

Citation required for this bold statement?

...Irish immigrants, who refused to integrate with the wider community.

No citation again.

My Encyclopedia Britannica states how, despite misgivings of disharmony regarding the influx of the Irish, this proved unfounded, and Scotland is a country "remarkably free of religious and racial strife". That's one of the reasons I love to live here. Do we need Americans, with their fantasy-land imagery of Ireland and Scotland stirring up strife, whether dropping their dollars into NORAID coffers, or gun-running for the UDA? Decidely not.

these teams faced discrimination from the football authorities, and there was  controversy  
over whether their players should be picked to play in international games,
especially against the Irish international team, given the political developments  over  
the early 20th century, culminating in the Anglo-Irish War.

Shows Rms's usual ignorance of Scottish history. The controversy referred to applied to a brief period in the 1890s. Players of the cited teams were a feature of the Scottish national team well before Civil War in Ireland.

Rms attempts to add the garbage again about "Scot" being an Irish word for "thief" or "raider". "Gael" is a Welsh word for "raider". The Vikings were raiders. The addition of "thief" without any justification is just plain POV.

the Irish were barbaric slave traders

All civilizations at this time used slaves. Every heard of the Roman empire? It's also a bit ironic to have an American calling the Irish of 1500 years "brutal slave traders", when the US only out-lawed slavery, after a vicious civil war, 140 years ago.

Regarding Rms's additions to "prominent" Irish-Scots. When did criminals and terrorists become "prominent"? Should we list John Wilkes Booth/Charles Manson/Jeffrey Dahmer in the list of prominent Americans?

Who the hell is Mick Derrig? (Apart from being one of Rms's sock puppets User:MickDerrig) Gary Og? (See the AfD on this utterly non-notable pub/social club performer). Eire Og - now has a "prod" tag (how ironic!)

As usual, Rms (or "BB" - pathetic) adds every Scot who is alleged to be a catholic to the list of Irish people in the UK. Viz Chris Burke. Not all catholics in Scotland are of Irish extraction.

I have no problem with some of the MPs = but why the derogatory "Blairite"? Blair is the leader of the party which has won three UK elections. So some Labour MPs support their leader? So what!

And then there's the laughable re-addition of Sean Connnery - who Baldrick Blackbird added himself, when he has never been classed as an Irish-Scot - ever heard of a straw man?

Rms/BB, when are you going to face the fact that the Scottish National Party's anthem is Burns's Scots Wha Hae, and all Scots sing Flower of Scotland, rather than your "Caledonia" pop-song? Are all the scots so stupid that they call themselves "thieves" and "raiders", and need an old American to point out their idiocy? Camillus (talk) 16:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know -- why do you refer to "all the Scots" as though that didn't include you?? Ramelton?? By the way, is Scotstown, County Monaghan boasting of being Scottish or of being a launching site for the raiders who would assail (and do worse) the Cymri, Picts, etc.?? Brandubh Blathmac 03:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

As usual, Robert/Baldrick can't answer the points so just reverts to attacking other editors. What the f*ck has Ramelton got to do with anything, Robert? Camillus (talk) 10:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

True Irish-Scots[edit]

Unsavoury or not, if you want to mention the Irish-Scots, you can avoid Hollywood (Sean Connery) and essential untruthfulness (James Connolly), and include some real life ones: Notable Irish-Scots include:

comedian Billy Connolly Aiden McGeady Chris Burke (footballer), Gary Og Eire Og Philip Murray (US labor leader, who referred to himself as Irish when in the U.S.) John Duddy (Massacre of Braybrook Street) Mick Derrig (An Poblacht) mass murderer/IRA terrorist, Hugh Doherty (of the Balcombe Street Siege), and his brother, Pat Doherty, a Sinn Fein politician/MP.

They are going back because they are Irish-Scots whether or not you find it politically or personally unappealing.

Brandubh Blathmac 03:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gary Og. Who the ---- is Mick Derrig?
Please don't use Irish-American propoganda sheets as your source for what is happening in Scotland, Robert.
Please forget about Sean Connery, Robert - you added him, no-one else. Remember your post:
Notable Irish-Scots include James Connolly and comedian Billy Connolly.
This is untrue: Sean Connery does not consider himself Irish, and James Connolly did not consider himself a Scot.
Rolling-on-the-floor-laughing! Camillus (talk) 10:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Pat and Hugh Doherty (Irish Republicans) were actually born in the Republic of Ireland and only moved to Scotland when older. That would make them "Irish living in Scotland" (for a while anyway...) rather than "Irish-Scots."GiollaUidir 00:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Interesting, GiollaUidir. Can you tell us where you got that information - I haven't been able to find much about their biographies. Camillus (talk) 00:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Online source: (kind of): [2] I'm pretty sure that Tim Pat Coogan's book "The IRA" includes it aswell. Also the book "Time Bomb" (about the Guildford 4/McGuire 7) mentions it.GiollaUidir 00:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


Irish-Scots vs Irish[edit]

"others however shun any association with their country of residence and celebrate their Irishness." I can see why this was deleted but I disagree with (what I presume is) the reasoning. The term "Irish-Scots" suggests-to me anyway-those of dual nationality, i.e. Who class themselves as both Scottish and Irish. However, many persons of Irish descent living in Scotland have no afinity or identfication with it and see themselves as Irish living abroad. Deleting that sentence would appear to deny that reality.

Yes, this is a sensitive subject, and I would prefer if User:Arniep had discussed his removal first. The article describes Irish-Scots as being, mainly, the descendents of Irish people who migrated to Scotland in the 19th and 20th century (though, of course, there has "always" been Irish people on Scotland). I do know the type that becomes "more Irish than the Irish" (you get them in the States as well), but I (at least personally) don't know many people who "shun any association with their country of residence". Maybe I don't go to enough Wolfe-Tones gigs? Camillus (talk) 01:15, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps! ;) By "association" perhaps I should have said "identify with" or such like.

The whole nationality/ethnicity thing is a hard one-on the one hand you have people of Asian heritage who want to be Scottish/Brittish but are constantly told that they are, well, not. Contrast with someone of Irish descent who is constantly told they are "wrong" if they assert that they are Irish. (Lost my chain of thought-it's half two in the morning!!) D'you get what I mean?? Or should I go to bed and rephrase? :P

Perhaps: "...others however have only the minimal identification with their country of residence and choose instead to celebrate their Irish heritage..."?GiollaUidir 01:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Both Billy Connoly and Sir Sean Connery have Irish Father's and Scottish Mother's. This wikipedia entry seems to assume anyone born in Scotland with an Irish surname (or Itish father) is Irish-Scots. Is this article actualy written by someone living in Scotland? I'm sure Sir Sean who is an outspoken Scot would certainly not refer to himself as Irish-Scots but at the same time I'm sure he's well aware of both his parent's ancestry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rabioza123 (talkcontribs) 14:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Important note (1066 and all that)[edit]

I misunderstood. Having said that, I think others might take the quote as being encyclopediac information too. Perhaps the text leading up to the quote should be ammended, and double quotes should surround the quote (maybe it should be italicised too)..? --Mal 21:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks fine with those big quotes around it Angus! I'll have to remember that wee bit of code. Cheers. --Mal 02:39, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Labels[edit]

As with any national "label", the term "Irish-Scots" is open to interpretation; many Scottish-born descendants of the Irish immigrants would style themselves "Scottish", while others take pride in their dual nationality. The same is true of any other groups, such as Irish-Americans or Italian-Americans, where the link to the country of origin may be decades, or even centuries old. However, loyal Scots naturally resent this perceived disloyalty and refusal to assimilate. Moreover, Scotland is not the United States (even compared to the 26 Counties), and it is not the "melting pot" that the Labour Party and the fifth columnists in Scotland seek to hide behind. As Mick Derrig, a prominent Irish-Scot puts it:

... [b]ecause Catholics still predominate in the lower socio-economic orders and it is an unwritten subtext that Catholics in Scotland, because so many of them have maintained an emotional attachment to Ireland, are not really full members of Scottish society. For many in the West of Scotland, that is an accurate picture of their mindset. It is certainly the sense of identity I grew up with. We were expatriate Irish. That identity would not be a problem in New York; in Glasgow it can be a stabbing offence.

The fact that those who rubbish the notion of "fifth columnists" in Scotland insist on referring to themselves as "hyphenated" Scots simply reinforces the sectarianism in the "West of Scotland".

Brandubh Blathmac 08:33, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

POV[edit]

Ali-oops: there is no untruth here. There is me and the wannabe censor Demiurge (Ante Pavelic, domestic terrorism in the US, The McNamara Brothers, Irish-Scots, Eamon de Valera's refugee policy, etc., etc., etc.).

For how much longer is Demiurge going to be free to gut or censor anything he feels like without having to provide a reason, other than mindless boilerplate, which even he should realise is not going to fly. I'm not going to be censored, especially when I am right, and I have the facts, the evidence, and yes, even the sources.

The 20th century is gone and the Irish censor with it. This is the 21st.

Brandubh Blathmac 09:47, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Robert, what there is here is continuous use of sock-puppets to push your POV. You refuse to collaborate with other editors and that just smacks of arrogance. You're obsessed with User:Demiurge, largely because of the recent RfC and subsequent RfAr. You're obsessed with all-things Catholic and you find censorship where none exists - Ali-oops 10:30, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Re meaning of word "Scot", since now everyone professes ignorance[edit]

See [3].

Edits[edit]

I deleted negative reference to Tony Blair's Labour Party, and to meaning of word "Scot" as raider or thief, given general, almost universal ignorance of the real meaning of the word, despite relentless use of it and its conjugations.

Brandubh Blathmac 10:18, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

  • And you almost got off scot-free with your wholesale re-insertion of POV - Ali-oops 10:26, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
  • You complain about censorship, yet you bed the truth. You so called deletion of the refrence was nothing more then misleading edit summariy to cover up for the 7th reversion of the article today. And you want people to take you serisouly with your POV tripe, when you mislead editors just so you can put the tripe back in, give me a break. I serioulsy would have no problem just reverting all of your edits, censorship or not. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 10:30, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
  • And once again, another misleading edit summary so he can re-incert his tripe, not even worth colbration wiht this user, is nothing but a POV pusher. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 10:41, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Boothy - reinsert is spelled "reinsert"; I don't know what "colbration with this user" means, but I don't think it's something the Good Lord meant for people to do on the 'Net, and, finally, I told you all at the RfC that I don't back down until or unless "I'm proved wrong". By the way the "trácht ar" causes me serious concerns and I will have to assume I cannot rely on you (for obvious reasons) regarding Demiurge's censorship campaign.

Ali: why would you think I will stop reverting to my last edit?? I never said I wouldn't. I will until I am proved wrong, as I stated at the RfC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.194.5.238 (talkcontribs)

  • Hi Robert. Thanks for making it abundantly clear that anyone who uses the Irish language is someone who's not to be trusted in your opinion. Then again, your opinion was always a little ... umm ... 'unorthodox'. I eagerly await your next mindless reversion. BTW - User:Demiurge is not waging a 'censorship campaign' against you. If you'd only learn to collaborate with other editors and refrain from being abusive and from using sock-puppets to push your POV edits, then there wouldn't be a problem - Ali-oops 01:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Is there nothing that can be done about Robert and his refusal to cooperate/vandalism of pages?GiollaUidir 02:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Redux[edit]

Hollywood-esque/unbalanced POV by notorious wiki-censor Demiurge rv on 10 April 2006

As with any national "label", the term "Irish-Scots" is open to interpretation; many Scottish-born descendants of the Irish immigrants would style themselves "Scottish", while others take pride in their dual nationality. The same is true of any other groups, such as Irish-Americans or Italian-Americans, where the link to the country of origin may be decades, or even centuries old.

Note the obsession with hyphenated identities (a la Camillus McElhinney) as though Britain or Scotland were the US.

However, loyal Scots naturally resent this perceived disloyalty and refusal to assimilate. Moreover, Scotland is not the United States and it is not the "melting pot" that the Labour Party and the perceived fifth columnists in Scotland seek to hide behind. As Mick Derrig, a prominent Irish-Scot puts it:

Time to speak up for the underdog.

...[b]ecause Catholics still predominate in the lower socio-economic orders and it is an unwritten subtext that Catholics in Scotland, because so many of them have maintained an emotional attachment to Ireland, are not really full members of Scottish society. For many in the West of Scotland, that is an accurate picture of their mindset. It is certainly the sense of identity I grew up with. We were expatriate Irish. That identity would not be a problem in New York; in Glasgow it can be a stabbing offence (see 1).

The voice of the Irish passport-carrying, Celtic man in Scotland (Caledonia??) himself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.194.2.108 (talkcontribs)

  • Hi again, Robert. This IP address didn't last long this time. Time to get another? - Ali-oops 06:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Ali - I've had a message left on my talk page by an editor with an IP address only. Is this that same person do you think? --Mal 02:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, it's Robert again - Ali-oops 06:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


Robert: you're just boring now. I suggest you get yourself a life, or at least make your nonsensical alterations of articles based in fact that you've merely twisted a little bit rather than just posting complete fabrications.GiollaUidir 19:55, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Few deletions[edit]

I took the list of notable Irish-Scots down from 12 to 2 by the expedient of checking each article linked to. Could anyone interested in extending the list please check too? Also, the article in general seems full of unverified assertions and apparent original research. For now I am just asking for a bare minimum of references please. --Guinnog 21:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I see that a few months on little has changed. I have removed
from the article, on the grounds that there is no evidence for identifying these people as Irish-Scots. If anyone else feels like taking an interest in researching these and procuring references, that'd be great. Until then, I don't think the article can include them. --Guinnog 05:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I've just wasted a few minutes I'll never see again confirming that, no, none of these people is in any verifiable way an Irish-Scot as so far established on Wikipedia. --Guinnog 05:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Fletcher's mother is Irish. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2003/10/13/sfnrp13.xml Is that not good enough? As for the others, what basis do you allow someone to be an Irish Scot on your special webpage for you only? Keith O'Brien is originally from Ireland. Mixino1 07:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Are you not going to answer then Guinnog? There's not much point in your style of editing if you a) refuse to discuss edits and b) revert articles without any discussion. Mixino1 05:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I would be interested to know how the notable Irish-Scots mentioned in the article define or defined themselves, Irish-Scots, Irish, or Scots! Just a thought!--Jack forbes (talk) 01:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

NOTE: LIST WAS REMOVED QUITE SOME TIME AGO. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 01:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Recent rv of edits[edit]

I checked the source provided in the edit summary by User:78.149.165.9 and, after welcoming him or her to Wikipedia, informed him/her I could not confirm the assertions based on his/her source (a statistical spreadsheet). I came up with the following from that source:

  • KS06, which gives "White Irish" total as 49,428 (0.98%) -- there was no listing for "Irish-Scots" or any other subgroup matching the category in question
  • KS07, which indicates that 15.88% of the population declared themselves Catholic -- but that does not dispositively equal assertions that at least 1,000,000 people in Scotland are of Irish ancestry or consider themselves accordingly as there are Catholics in Scotland (admittedly a minority) who are not of Irish descent.

Just to add that I know that I have a history on this article, which brought out the worst in me some five (5) years ago, but now I simply want to be sure that the assertions made by User:78.149.165.9 are accurate. I did my due diligence by checking the source he/she cited and could not confirm his/her findings. I will not contest the findings if valid links can be found proving this. I let User:78.149.165.9 know that if he/she can provide better sourcing for the assertions made the edits will not be contested. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 01:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Ridiculous[edit]

This article is quite ridiculous to be honest. Scotland is not some new nation like America or Australia. For goodness sake Scotland is far older than even Ireland itself. The ridiculous notion of ancestry really shouldn't be being entertained here especially in this day and age. We know all people in Scotland and indeed the rest of Europe and many other continents could trace their ancestry to other CONTINENTS never mind many, many countries over the generations as we know for a fact that at one point in the not so distant past there weren't any humans in Scotland or the rest of Europe and many other continents.

For example, every single person (or near enough) on the island of Ireland could trace their genealogy back to Scotland. Considering it was tribes from Scotland who first began settling the island (crossing what was probably a land bridge or at least a very shallow body of water around 2,000 years after Scotland had begun to be settled. So really that would mean all "Irish-Scottish" people were originally Scottish in the first place by the nonsense of ancestry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.205.249 (talk) 20:30, 3 October 2012 (UTC)