Talk:Irish Travellers

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"Overview"

Do you really want to start an article about a certain people with a list of derogatory names? That might better be placed in a less prominent part of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.178.79 (talk) 06:29, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I removed these derogatory comments, which are totally inappropriate and irrelevant for an overview. Would anyone consider using similar racist terms in articles on (say) African-Americans? There is adequate discussion in the "Cultural suspicion and conflict" section of the article.Simonc1 (talk) 22:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Please do not remove the names associated with Irish travellers. The names are a fact and why pretend they don't exist? To the people above, please stop trying to repress people and control what they can and can't say. It is not your place to take offence about an article that is written for informative value only. Therefore it is ridiculous that you decide to take a negative personal view. Lunawik (talk) 08:19, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

"Pavee" etymology

Does someone round here know a probable — if not proven — etymology for the name Pavee? It seems quite hard to find a reliable source. I would very like get this info as I'm trying to launch a big cleanup in the French article about the Rromané Chavé, which has more to do with a fair (may I say a mess…?) where everything can be found but few reliable and genuine points. Many thanks forward to you all. — Іван Коренюк ψ Ivan Korenyuk 19:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a film titled Pavee Lackeen (means: Irish traveller girl - Pavee = Irish Traveler & Lackeen = girl). Surely this in itself is sufficient evidence if not the many books written by or about real Irish travelers.

The other word many also use is Nidi (pronounced as Needi or as Neddi). This word I believe just means traveler in their language but I am unsure of this. I am from a Romani family and we often have to live alongside them and have much interaction with them so I can assure you that I am experience by first hand information and not just relying on other sources I know nothing about. 77.96.252.34 (talk) 10:38, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Reference Section

The Reference section of this page needs to be cleaned up from reference number 7 on. AJseagull1 (talk) 08:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Article Needs Some Pictures

A few photographs should be added.

98.245.150.162 (talk) 07:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Tinker Diaspora

There are Irish Tinkers in the United States, who still live by the Tinker lifestyle. I know of at least one large population that "travels" in the American South, and there are probably more. As there is a general Irish diaspora there is also (although much smaller) an Irish-Tinker diaspora in different parts of the world, and it would be good to have a section on that in the article.

98.245.150.162 (talk) 07:57, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Demographics

I undid the edit that deleted the demographics information. The justification given in the edit summary by user:86.154.130.136 was that "This section is not needed at all and makes travellers out to be "third world" citizens." I think that this should be discussed before the deletion is made. Many pages on ethnic or regional groups give demographic information. I think it is up to the readers of the entry to decide what information they need when they look up the subject, not one editor. As for making them out to be "third world citizens", again, I don't understand how giving information about them can do this (unless the information is not accurate). Is this because of the demographic information given as comparison? I assume that these groups were chosen by user:Anandks007 because they also have high birth rates, but I could see the argument for only giving the information for the Irish traveler community compared to the European community birthrate, and leaving out the info for Pakistan, India, etc. -AJseagull1 (talk) 23:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

OK.. I removed the Birth Rate for Asian countries from the article. I tried to compare with other European communities where the birth rate is high.... like the ultra-religious Dutch towns of Urk, Valkenburg and Graafstroom. But data available was insufficient. Axxn (talk) 14:25, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Population in the UK.

Reference 1 claims that there are 200000/300000 irish travellers in the uk, yet later on in the article in the demopgraphics section it claims there are just 15000 which is also supported by reference 4.

An accurate, possibly census account of the zise of irish travelling community in the UK is required, anyone got one?Jai alai (talk) 11:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I just came here to mention this point too. brob (talk) 19:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the larger figure possibly refers to the 'travelling community' in the UK, which is not synonymous with pavee or Irish Travellers, neither of which are terms you hear often in the UK. Hakluyt bean (talk) 20:58, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic group?

Would'nt they be better classified as a cultural group? After all, they are geneticly indistingusible from the rest of the Irish population. Fergananim (talk) 12:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

you wouldnt say indistinguisible if you seen them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.135.111 (talk) 20:53, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Genetics != ethnicity. Although yes, the Irish Travellers are a marginal case when classifying as an "ethnicity", but not because of genetics. --86.135.81.174 (talk) 23:55, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

If there are no races, then cultural ethnicity is a matter of personal behaviour(s) and therefore of personal choice. If I always eat my ice-cream cone from the side, and not from the top, does that make me culturally unique (yes, sort of)? ..and therefore a unique ethnic group (er, no). Ethnicity is a make-work scheme for academics to categorise us all into.86.46.207.32 (talk) 10:32, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Race and ethnicity are not the same thing - attend any 101 Anthropology course at a university and its one of the first things you will be taught. Neither does it follow that ethnicity if purely a matter of personal choice, although elective ethnicity is a common question (are you Welsh/Scottish/English or British/European) to take an example where there is useful material available. I don't see any argument or reference above and without that there is no case to make any change to the article. --Snowded ^TALK 11:43, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Ethnicity is not race, it is your culture. The Tinkers, although Irish, have their own distinct culture and even their own separate language within Ireland, and so are certainly a distinct ethnic group.

The way I am describing ethnicity is the same definition used in the fields of sociology and anthropology.

98.245.150.162 (talk) 08:07, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

One sided much?

This article seems bedevilled by wanton disregard for balance, appearing to be written as all but a parody.

The undeniable fact of any drive through the Irish countryside is that halting sites, whether during or after occupation by traveller families, typically appear filthy. This applies somewhat less frequently to "official" sites, but is still generally true. Now, one in no way wishes to suggest that *all* traveller families or all halting sites are like this - having shared a laneway for many years with an obsessively tidy temporary site I can attest to the existence of clean, tidy, considerate travellers. They appear to be a small minority however.

The article seems to go to great lengths - absurd lengths - to gloss over this reality. There appears to be a willing delusion in force, as if this group should be described as one would *like* to find them. If this article was about a product, it would undoubtedly have an advertising warning at the top.

"Tolerant" and "balanced" do not mean wishful thinking and willful refusal to engage with reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.195.137.40 (talk) 20:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Nobody can put "most Travellers keep filthy camps" in the article because they think so or because they believe they're expressing a commonly-held opinion. It needs to be verifiable. In theory, one way material like that might enter the article is a news story about, say, the health board inspecting a particular Traveller campsite and finding it unsatisfactory. If you had a few stories like that, you might then write, "Unsanitary conditions at some Traveller camps have attracted the attention of health authorities." Then provide references to the stories that support the statement. Dppowell (talk) 19:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Dppowell. I wish people who come onto this discussion page and complain that Travellers are dirty, stupid, ignorant etc. would remember that this page is not an opinion forum, that the article is not an editorial, and that Wikipedia is not a chat room. This page is a place to discuss actual improvements to the article, but the anonymous poster - like the many others who have done the same - has no actual contribution to make except to moan that the article is 'wishful thinking'. I also note that most of the people who bitch on this page about Travellers and then loudly protest that they are not personally bigoted, don't sign their own posts. I hardly call that good citizenship. If you don't like this article, change it; don't hide behind anonymity and don't just complain. If you do change the article to reflect your own personal opinions unsupported by documented fact, be prepared to have your changes undone. Lexo (talk) 15:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

For such claims of unsanitary conditions in Traveller camps not to be original research, they would have to have been printed by reliable sources. A Google News search shows some possible sources, though much of the article is behind paywall in some cases. See [1] , [2] [3] , [4], [5] and[6].(belatedly signing) Edison (talk) 14:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Has the ghost of Corin Redgrave been at the main page? It's definitely got a pro-traveller bias on it these days! Next time I'm in Rathkeale I don't think I'll know the place? Seems there'll be painted caravans inhabited by kind gentle folk who'll be merrily dancing around the camp fire despite the machinations of those evil settled people! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.149.97.85 (talk) 12:43, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Organized Crime

There is no mention of Organized Crime in this article. Particularly in North America, the Travellers are well known for harboring Con Men, Scam artists, and Swindlers. This is a gross omission from this article. Castravalva (talk) 04:31, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunatly very few published articles would be willing to paint a true picture of 'travellers' and therefore credable references wouldn't be widely available. This is perhaps one of the articles where the bleeding obvious can't be prooved Cls14 (talk) 15:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC) Irish Travelers raided on fraud, other charges Task force formed in response to public outcry following an expose on the Traveler community by the television show Dateline NBC.

Criminal activity in Murphys Village, North Augusta, SC is substantiated by the following news release: copyvio removed Pam muraca (talk) 13:17, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I retired to Aiken, SC, near Murphy's Village (SC), the U.S. center for Irish Travellers. I have no idea if this is also true in the UK, etc., but I can tell you here the entire community's revenue is dependent on (besides welfare, public assistance, etc.) numerous scams bilking the gullible and elderly, predominantly home/driveway/roof repair scams, phony charities, ID theft, check fraud, cash-based fraudulent enterprises, and heavy shoplifting, including enlisting & training their children to steal. Murphy's Village has some trailers and cottages, but most live in huge but poorly maintained estates paid for by their criminal enterprise. One only need look at the local news (or the North Augusta PD and Aiken County Sheriff arrest records) to verify this. The snide reference to the Georgia Governor (FN#44) in the Wiki article is totally unfair, since he spoke the truth.Pam muraca (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

So go and get a source for the arrest records then, otherwise your additions here are your opinion (and making some pretty big claims). And what "snide remark" are you referring to in the article? --HighKing (talk) 19:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, ref. this article about a joint task force sweep of Murphys Village in 2002: http://www.rickross.com/reference/irish_travelers/irish_travelers2.html, which was a response to community furor after the Dateline NBC expose. You can use that article to google enough supporting data for "sources," but I can't believe you're surprised, unless you live under a rock. As for the snide quote, in context, I think you use that quote (at the end of "Anti-social Behavior") to illustrate what you perceive to be discrimination against this sick group. HighKing, you are hostile and defensive, and I was simply trying to add a little accuracy to the totally one-sided coverage of this cult, who also obscenely sexualizes their little girls and possibly hides pedophiliac & kiddie porn activities. (Ref. SO reports.) Worldwide, these parasites cost us fortunes in social, legal, and medical expenses without contributing anything to their surrounding societies. That's an opinion!Pam muraca (talk) 22:47, 2 July 2011 (UTC)Pam muraca (talk) 22:44, 2 July 2011 (UTC) 74.250.135.89 (talk) 22:39, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Hey Pam, please don't delete discussions from Article Talk pages. I've restored the discussion. If you want to strike a comment, do it like this. Also, please refrain from commenting on editors as it's against WP:CIVIL policy. I fail to see how my comments could possibly be taken as "hostile and aggresive", but I find it very disturbing what you've written above. Referring to Irish Travellers in your area as a cult who "obscenely sexualizes their little girls and possibly hides pedophiliac & kiddie porn activities" is totally unacceptable, and unless you can justify the comment with reliable sources, I'd advise you to strike the comments (and apologize). --HighKing (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, you just deleted my reponse (didn't like it?), so, once again, I say you owe us, law-abiding society, an apology. Any mental health professional or criminologist will tell you when you see 6-year-olds undulating their hips in provocative, experienced, sexual movements, whether it's your little dancers or here in the U.S. in a kiddie beauty pageant, will tell you that beneath that layer of obscene movement is another layer of probable child molesting and pornography. It's a reality. You are obviously a Traveller and a belligerent one, since I see you chose a username of a childrens' book Warlord. Control problems? You should examine the reasons people condemn this group instead of attack me. You are Exhibit A.Pam muraca (talk) 20:57, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi Pam. If you checked the history of this page, you'd have easily discovered that some other editor deleted your response. You're a new editor. My advice to you is to read up on the core policies here (especially regarding WP:CIVIL), otherwise you may find other editors commenting on your conduct and you may even end up having your editing privileges temporarily suspended. There are minimum standards of conduct expected. And I've no intentions of carrying on this discussion less you feel you're being goaded. Let's just draw a line under this. --HighKing (talk) 21:26, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Copyvios deleted'

What has the above got to do with organised crime? Bjmullan (talk) 13:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I've collapsed the huuuugggeeee posts. They're all copyright violations - should they be deleted? What's the policy for Talk pages? Also, just to point out, Pasadena333 above is our friend above with an urgently requested renamed account. --HighKing (talk) 13:41, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, they were such blatant copyvios that not only should the have been deleted, they must be deleted! And so they have. The we're also irrelevant to the idea of "organized" crime, as they were just run of the mill scams. oknazevad (talk) 20:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Gypsies

This sentence: "Irish Travellers are sometimes referred to as Gypsies in Ireland and in Britain (the term more accurately refers to the Roma people, represented in Britain by the Romanichal and Kale). " is false.

Depending on the legal definition used in the UK, gypsy is the correct term for all itinerant people who do not live in a group of travelling entertainers. It is complicated because there are several laws involved and in some legal situations gypsy can mean Romani, this source (Richard Jones, Gnanapala Welhengama, Ethnic minorities in English law, Trentham Books, 2000 ISBN 1858561388, 9781858561387. pp. 44-50,57) has a detailed summary of the position under English Law which explains this clearly. On page 57 there is a footnote which explains one of the main legal definitions: "... Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 ... s.80(2)(b) which states that '...gypsies means persons of nomadic habit of life, whatever their race or origin, but does not include members of an organised group of travelling showmen, or persons engaged in travelling circuses, travelling together as such'" --PBS (talk) 11:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't tell a Romani Gypsy that, is all I'm saying, and definitely don't ever call an Irish traveller a gyspy to his face. PBS talk 18:40, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Ashes to Ashes

I just noticed this reference to the British TV show. This tv show doesn't indicate in the plot or storyline that the travellers in question are Irish, or have a link to Ireland. i watched the show at the time and they have English accents and also have stereotypical Romani characters like a "fortune teller". I dont think they are Irish gypsies or were wrote in a such. What do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.133.43.176 (talk) 17:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I've just searched the article for Ashes to Ashes and don't find a ref. Which programme are you referring to? RashersTierney (talk) 17:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Just noticed you'd removed reference. Anyway any sites I've found refer to 'Jed Wicklow' as Gypsy or Romany, so it seems your call was bang on the money. RashersTierney (talk) 17:50, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Important Article

Could someone who has free (university) journal access, please read North et al. (2000). I read it a couple of years ago. As far as I remember they proposed, based on that genetic analysis, that the Irish Travelers originated from the Midlands of Ireland and they probably started out as skilled artisans and specialist metal workers who manufactured religious iconography and metal farm implements, whey moved itinerantly following religious festivals and seasonal farming centers but lost their living upon changes in religious traditions and farming technology. Its a theory proposed by Michael H. Crawford in 1975. Such a hypothesis seems to be confirmed, I think, by the Traveler's exaggerated form of Irish Catholicism that emphasises the Virgin Mary, a possible leftover of pre-christian Celtic traditions that attest to the Irish Travelers ancient roots. By the way, some have claimed that Ötzi the Iceman was itinerant metal worker, he may be the earliest Traveler.

North, K.E., Martin, L.J. and Crawford, M.H. 2000 The origins of the Irish Travellers and the genetic structure of Ireland. Annals of Human Biology 27 (5), 453, doi:10.1080/030144600419297.

--Diamonddavej (talk) 22:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting reference. I've included a brief description of the conclusions. Norman21 (talk) 18:29, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Buffer

Great slang word. Needs ref here. Defined in Hare-um Scare-um article without ref. Needs its own article? Books google had a couple good refs. CarolMooreDC (talk) 19:31, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I think if we're having trouble getting references as things stand, the likelihood of getting it beyond 'dictionary definition' status is pretty slim. From personal experience though, it is a term that's widely applied by Travellers. RashersTierney (talk) 21:01, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Unsure if this is a acceptable source for wiki but here is a Irish Traveller/Pavee bloggers post on the word: http://barefootpavee.blogspot.com/2011/02/cantshelta-word-buffer.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.251.166.104 (talk) 22:39, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

FightGame and Firefight

I have removed the book FightGame and Firefight by Kate Wild as the books dont specifically state the gypsy is actually an Irish Traveller. His name is Freedom Smith, Smith being a well known English Romanichal name and not Irish Pavee one. So I have removed it.Uthican (talk) 19:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

ethnicicy all aload of rubbish!

on the front line, someone brought up that a group of settled ppeople and a group of traveller people had there blood tested and the dna was the same! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.11.164 (talk) 20:57, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

That'd be Human DNA then... --HighKing (talk) 14:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

The Black Stuff

Hi

I'm surprised that my additions to the TV series section was removed as being "Peripheral relationship to article". I watched this play last week on BBC4 and was struck by the portrayle of Irish Travellers. From the moment they appeared on screen the main characters unanimously agreed that they were untrustworthy and before even speaking to them concluded that they would try to con them. This in fact turned out to be the case leaving the protagonists robbed of their savings and fired from their job at the end of the play - The subsequent devastating unemployment that was explored in the highly acclaimed follow-up Boys from the Blackstuff, and this encounter was said by other characters to be what led to Yosser Hughes mental breakdown depicted over the series. I was amazed at this overwhlmingy negative portrayol by an author like Bleasdale of Irish Travlellers and think it would have been on of the most notable portrayals in British TV history - Certainly more notable than most mentions in that section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.41.7.108 (talk) 19:19, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

We try to avoid negative racial stereotyping on most articles which are works of fiction unless historically noteworthy. I agree that it is periperal to the article. Perhaps it would be more fitting in an article on Bleasdale? --HighKing (talk) 20:34, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Sure but how could you justify having an episode of Start Trek (With a ridiculous portrale by the way) and not The Black Stuff where Irish Travellers - and the workers attitudes and prejudices towards them - were an integral part of the story. I'd say The Black Stuff/Boys from the Blackstuff were very historically notworthy bits of TV history

I think the point being made is that the Travellers in The Black Stuff were periphery to the overall story, whereas the Travellers in Star Trek were "primary" characters. --HighKing (talk) 00:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd disagree. I'd see them as central http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xYXjyMz9bQ . And this incident was referred to in the subsequent series as the point where everything went wrong for the group and the start of their misery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.32.157 (talk) 05:25, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

You seem to forget that most editors on Wikipedia don't accept that an article is complete unless it has a section about how the subject appeared on some random episode of Star Trek. Phunting (talk) 13:12, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Irish traveller = tarish ?

as in the Tarish Rite Apostolic Church ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.108.8.136 (talk) 17:13, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

The All-Ireland Traveller Health Study has been out for a year...

All-Ireland Traveller Health Study

Just an FYI. The health section can be updated. --Rfilmyer (talk) 19:53, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Is the reference source The traveller-gypsies By Judith Okely that reliable?

I just changed a quote from the source The traveller-gypsies By Judith Okely and to be fair what I’ve read is a jumbled mess. The book uses the term “Irish Traveller” or twice as an example on page 66 but is referenced in this wiki article. It uses the Romani term for a non-gypsy multiple times and is a confusing read even to people like myself as it confuses different groups both Romani and non-Romani. Most importantly it uses the term “Traveller” without distinguishing between the various types of Traveller. For instance Scottish Travellers/Gypsies, Irish Travellers and Showmen Travellers are all lumped together yes they call themselves Travellers per se but they don’t all have the same customs, language or culture. This leads to confusion especially as the term in p66 for a non Gypsy or Traveller. Showmen use the term “flattie”, “Scottish Travellers use the Romani term” if they are romaine’s and the Irish Traveller term in shielta is “buffer” for a non-Irish Traveller. To say that all Travellers use the term “Flattie” would be wrong, it’s a Showman word that originated in the 19th century for people who lived on a flat bottomed boats or barges who were not part of the later Showman’s Guild. This reference is not one of the best and would confuse those who try to build this article by confusing terms, peoples, dialects, languages and cultures of the different Travelling ethnic minorities.Uthican (talk) 06:01, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I too have been a bit concerned about terminology since this source appeared in the article. Will take a closer look when time permits, hopefully later today. Would welcome others' comments. RashersTierney (talk) 09:13, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Having at this stage read quite a portion of Okely's book, I have to admit to finding it interesting (though I have a sociologists natural scepticism of anthropology). There is a difficulty however in the way terminology has been plucked from that source and introduced into this article, giving rise to ambiguous attribution regarding terms and their general use, or not, by the 'groups' in question. This is not a criticism on my part of Okely's underlying thesis (which is very much open to debate) that these groups may not be as distinct socially, linguistically or 'racially' as often presented. The problem is not I believe with Okely as a source per se, but in the loss of context with some paraphrasing recently introduced by an inexperienced editor. Having said that, I imagine there are several academic critiques of Okely's proposition if that is what you wish to examine. Here is one reference to the underlying division. RashersTierney (talk) 16:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree the Oakley book is riddled with inconsistencies and confuses the whole subject of gypsies and Traveller groups from the British Isles. I have to disagree with your comment “these groups may not be as distinct socially, linguistically or 'racially' as often presented” I am actually an English Romani and can say we are different and do not consider ourselves as Irish or having a shared race, or culture with Irish Travellers. Irish Travellers speak a dialect of English/Irish/gammon Creole I have no idea what they say, yes I have heard their language but its not romanies or related to our dialect. Culturally they don’t even have the purity codes romanies as I have (called merhime by the Roma) and my family/group have this in common with other European groups like the Roma as well as the language (although it’s now sadly a creole). We are not the same, as Irish Travellers, I don’t mean that in a discriminatory fashion but will say they have taken on similar aspects as British gypsies using the gypsy vardo, but that does not make them the same group. I also have family that have married into the Showman again another ethic group that although does speak some romanies they are not culturally, socially or linguistically the same group as us gypsies or the Irish Travellers. If there is any similarity between English/British gypsies and Irish Travellers it’s been adopted by the Irish Travellers I cant think of any aspect of Irish Traveller culture in my ethnic group. We don’t speak Gammon or have Irish words Just look at the uproar My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding opened when it portrayed Irish Travellers as being gypsies and having a shared one "ethnic label fits all" thrust on us by the media. Many British gypsies were offended by that because it creates confusion in the general public and is inaccurate. Back to the Oakley book it is confusing and isn’t really an effective consistent tool to show you or other people what the various groups are it even doesn’t distinguish between Scottish gypsy/Travellers and or Irish Travellers and Showmen. Also to think showmen use the term gorgio in any way is also inacurate and the Irish Gammon for a non Traveller is a "buffer" which again is also different.Uthican (talk) 11:52, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Over-emphasis on language.

I think this article has far too much emphasis on the Travellers' use of a separate language. It's mentioned in the lead, and may give the wrong impression that large numbers of Travellers go around speaking a totally different language. This is not the case. The section on Language states - Irish Travellers speak Shelta - again giving the wrong impression that it is widespread. The Shelta article states usage at c6000 in Ireland, but that is out of a population of 22,000 Travellers.

It should be rewritten to show that usage is not widespread, and that the Shelta is a creole and not a completely different language..--Dmol (talk) 10:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Removing unidentified image

I am removing this image from the article. Not only does it have no caption, but there is nothing on its own page that substantiates its claim to depict an encampment of Irish Travellers. If it could be better documented, it would be useful in this article, but sitting alone as it is now, unidentified and undocumented, it is only a distraction to the reader.--Jim10701 (talk) 13:06, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Irish Cant is not derived from Romanies

I reverted an edit claiming that Irish cant is derived from Romanies. I am a speaker of Scottish cant and English Romanies and I cant understand a word of the Irish cant its just not the same. On further investigation Romani publications state the same.

Das Dumas Romanies by Ronald lee p268/9 states; "Irish Traveller cant is not a Para-Romani register the speakers call it Cammon or Cant I have heard it spoken and find it totally incomprehensible.]. . .[[There are sounds in Irish Cant not found in English or Romani."

While Irish Traveller's do understand some Romanies or Scottish Cant they are so different to Irish Cant, to say it derives from Romanies is 100% misleading. I can see how the editor mixed up Scottish cant and the word "Cant" in an Irish context. If anything Irish Cant shares its origins from a Gaelic based language like the Indigenous Highland Traveller Beurla Reagaird but then again these two languages are incomprehensible with each other as well. Uthican (talk) 20:09, 18 February 2012 (UTC)