Talk:Islamic views on slavery

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Former good article nominee Islamic views on slavery was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2014[edit]

where are the sources and who wrote this? (talk) 21:03, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not requested a change.
To answer your question - the sources are clearly stated in the article - all 148 of them. Arjayay (talk) 21:12, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

What is this page about? Is it about ISIS selling girls or about Islamic Views on slavery?[edit]

ISIS is hardly some authoritative Islamic body. If they have a position on slavery, then state their rationale for slavery, we do not need to hear too much about they took this girl to this market and sold them for 20 dinar, that does not seem to fit into the theme of this page. What they did belongs on their page, WHY they are doing it belongs on this page BUT (and this is key) only if it falls into an Islamic justification for slavery! Cuz the section is getting bigger and bigger and I am yet to see where it is going. And while it might be hard to separate, not everyone with Islam in their name is an Islamic perspective. --Inayity (talk) 18:45, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

You may challenge the authority of ISIS, but they represent an Islamic point of view that is significant because it is affecting the lives of thousands of women. That they are actually putting this interpretation into practice, and the number of women affected, is relevant because it helps the reader understand that disagreements over Islamic law in this area have real-world consequences and to gauge the impact of those consequences. This is not simply an academic question of scriptural interpretation, and readers need to know that. EastTN (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

So, how is ISIS's supposed slavery related to Islamic views on slavery? -AsceticRosé 00:48, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

ISIS justifies slavery based on Islamic law. We may or may not like it, and we may or may not believe they are correctly interpreting the Quran and other sources of Islamic law. Regardless, ISIS has expressed an explicitly Islamic view on slavery. (Given that both ISIS and the U.N. call it "slavery," it no longer seems necessary to qualify it as "supposed" slavery.)
Let's also look at the context of the discussion. How can we justify including under "Current status" what "organized criminal gangs" in Saudi Arabia are doing, and not include ISIS? How can we justify including under "Islamist opinions" a Boka Haram leader claiming the authority to enslave captives and not include the same claim made by ISIS? Is it really the place of the Wikipedia community to decide that Boka Haram is more "Islamic" than ISIS? Or to decide that when Saudi Arabia is lax in combating human trafficking it's related to Islamic views on slavery, but when ISIS comes right out and says that sharia allows them can enslave Yazidi women it's not related?
Or let's just look at the main section heading - "Slavery in the contemporary Muslim world". What part of this do we think doesn't fit? That it's not "slavery"? ISIS, the U.N. and the press reports all disagree. That it's not "contemporary"? It's happening right now. That it's not in the "Muslim world"? This is an Islamist group operating in Syria and Iraq. It might be more comfortable to ignore extreme Islamist views in articles like this, but it would also be wrong. EastTN (talk) 21:15, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
You are actually conflating two different things for reasons best known to you. You are mixing what Islam is and what some people do in the name of Islam. The dividing line between them is pretty clear to those who generally study such things. When we talk about any religion's view on any specific issue, we mean what rulings/canonical doctrines the scriptures and authoritative books of that religion pronounce, how the jurists and scholars of that religion explain them, and how the mainstream followers practice them in their mundane life, and not what some separate people do using the name of that religion. This can be exemplified in various ways. Anders Behring Breivik attacked and killed many innocent people in 2011 Norway attacks showing religious causes. Terry Jones, a Christian pastor planned to burn 200 Qurans at his church showing religious cause. But I don't see these events being included in Christianity and Islam as an example of Christian view on Islam. Why? Clearly, we can not say that killing people of other religion and burning their scripture are Christian doctrines just because some of them have done so. There are many such incidents involving all the major religions which does not necessarily stand for the respective religion's view. We can write pages after pages on them.
Is ISIS/ISIL any authoritative or representative body for Islam? Are they comprised of Islamic scholars and/or mainstream common Muslims? Where have they originated from? We even can't be sure if they are true Muslims when judged from Islamic theological viewpoint. That being said. what ISIS is doing belong to their page. You are at liberty to include as much as possible there. You said ISIS justifies slavery based on Islamic law. It is ISIS's concern, not Islam's.
As for "organized criminal gangs" in Saudi Arabia and Boka Haram, I have not included them. So how can I account for that? Over-enthusiastic editors like you have done this. It is also not clear how the single-sentence para regarding Boka Haram is related to the purpose of this article. As for It might be more comfortable to ignore extreme Islamist views..., I can say Islamic views are Islamic views; it is up to us whether we see them as extreme or moderate. Canonical Islamic views will always be eligible to be included at appropriate places. Once again, it has little to do with ISIS or the like. -AsceticRosé 16:57, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
     Areas controlled  (20 October 2014)      Territories claimed  (2006)      Rest of Iraq and Syria Note: map includes uninhabited areas.
Your examples don't apply here. In both cases (Anders Behring Breivik and Terry Jones) you are talking about the idiosyncratic views of single individuals. ISIS represents an Islamist political movement that currently controls significant portions of Syria and Iraq.
Your core argument seems to be that ISIS does not represent "true Muslims" and thus their interpretation of sharia does not represent an "Islamic view" for purposes of this article. They claim to be Muslim, and the media report on them as jihadis. It is not our role as Wikipedia editors to independently decide that they do not represent "[c]anonical Islamic views." If you have reliable sources that say ISIS is not Islamic, then it would certainly be appropriate to include that rebuttal. Otherwise, if it's appropriate that the article includes the views of the Muslim Brotherhood, Jamaat-e-Islami and Hizb ut-Tahrir - and I believe that it is - then it is also appropriate to include the views of ISIS.
The question we face as editors is very simple. This is an article on "Islamic views on slavery." The only reasons to exclude the material would be that it isn't really "slavery" or it doesn't represent an "Islamic view." The first isn't in doubt, and the second isn't our call to make. EastTN (talk) 18:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Once again, what ISIS does belongs to their page, not here. Hence, I've removed that out-of-place text regarding to their activities. They are beyond the purpose of this article. However, their claim about slavery has been kept, as it is included as a claim. Just as English Defence League, Anders Behring Breivik and Terry Jones are idiosyncratic, and despite assuming Christian identity, are unlikely to be operating within the permitted boundary of Christianity, it can't be ensured that ISIS and the like are actually conforming the canonical Islamic rulings in their activities, and are operating within Islamic boundary. This is quite evident now as you have included a critical view of ISIS from within the Muslim world.
ISIS is more of a political issue and group than of a religious one, (and you are aware of it). That's why, many Muslim countries are joining the battle against them.
As for the second isn't our call to make, sometimes it is definitely our call. We are not robots. It is the Wikipedia editors who write articles and decide which piece of information to include and which piece to exclude. That's why we have so many policies to guide our writing and to guide our movement. -AsceticRosé 00:31, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Look, these analogies you keep trying to draw simply aren't applicable. Anders Behring Breivik and Terry Jones are both single individuals. If there were any reliable sources proving that they represented large, organized Christian movements, then they would in fact be relevant for articles discussing Christian views on Islam. ISIS is not a single individual or a single mosque. It's a large Islamic movement controlling more territory than some nations. The English Defence League is even less relevant. It doesn't promote itself as a Christian movement.
Opposition by other Muslims does not mean that ISIS falls outside the bounds of Islam. It was not that long ago that Protestant Christians (including such notable figures as Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer, and John Knox) saw the Pope as the Antichrist. That doesn't mean that an encyclopedia written at the time could exclude the views of the Roman Catholic Church as "not truly Christian."
We are not robots, but we still don't get to decide whether ISIS is "Islamic" enough. What we do get to do is follow the sources. The sources tell us that ISIS claims to be Islamic, they cite sharia as the justification for their actions, and the media are reporting that they are an Islamist group. If you and I don't like that, we can look for other reliable sources that say something else (which you'll note that I've done, and already incorporated into the article). But we can't simply say "no, that's wrong" or ignore the sources because we disagree. EastTN (talk) 14:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Please look, just as we do not use sources, rather use reliable sources to support our statements, similarly to demonstrate a religion's view on any issue in any encyclopedic article, we can't import just an organization, rather it should be an authoritative body. Probably you will be agree with me that ISIS is not an authoritative body of Islam. That's the thing I'm trying to imply. Yes, Opposition by other Muslims does not mean that ISIS falls outside the bounds of Islam. Similarly, claims by ISIS to base their activities on Islamic foundation does not promote it (at least for the present) to the level of acceptance where we can't question their activities.
Look, I'm not questioning the sources. I'm even not saying not to mention the ISIS events, but only that not to include them here as I strongly believe this falls beyond the purpose of this article for reasons mentioned above. They have their page to deal with these.
Yes, we still don't get to decide whether ISIS is "Islamic" enough. This is obviously true when you will deal with these things in ISIS's page. But this does not remain true when we are in an article which is to tell us Islamic view on an issue. Otherwise, we risk misleading the readers.
You still somehow have managed to incorporate ISIS's claim in Islamist opinions section. I like to thank you for bringing a critical viewpoint about ISIS from within the Muslim arena. But pushing then their long saga seems to be too much to me. I'm about to finish my points here. Hope, this will suffice. Thanks for participating in the discussion. -AsceticRosé 04:51, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
We may just not agree. I believe you're trying to draw a distinction that's simply not correct. If we were to apply your line of reasoning to Christianity, then the views of Catholics for Choice should not be included on the page on Christian views on contraception because they are not, in fact, an authoritative body within the Catholic Church (or within any other church, as far as I'm aware). Their views are included, and I believe rightly so, because they represent the actual views of a significant number Catholics in the U.S. The group is significant, even though it has no canonical authority within the formal structure of the church. The article goes on to provide information on what U.S. Catholics actually do. Arguably the views of Catholics for Choice are more significant than the official position, because they reflect the actual practice of modern Catholics.
Religions are not as neat and compartmentalized as your argument assumes. There are multiple groups that claim formal authority, there are groups outside the formal organizational structures that have great informal authority, and there are the actual beliefs and practices of adherents. It is important to clearly distinguish between each of these. But when the average reader comes to this article, they will not only be asking "what is the official scholarly position on slavery" but also "what do Muslims believe about slavery," "how do those beliefs vary" and "how do they affect what Muslims do." The same is true about readers going to the article on Christian beliefs about contraception. That's why that article gives the official position of the Catholic Church, but also gives the dissenting view and information on what Catholics in the pews actually believe and do. This article should do no less. EastTN (talk) 21:57, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

What this article is about: Is Slavery and related sex abuse is lawful in Islam or not[edit]

The article is still not well written. Full of cherry picking about how good early muslims were good to their slaves. ISIS is also cherry picking on the other side. There is no different views within Islam. Quran and Sunna are clear. It is lawful. There is no power that can change the legislation other than outright lies and fallacies. ISIS is doing this following the Prophet. The Prophet was inviting his companion overtly for the gain of sex slaves, especially proposing to Al-Jadd bin Qays if was interested in women, inviting him to the battle of Tabouk.--Connection (talk) 19:41, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Why dont you just let the scholars and RS determine that. And avoid so much personal opinion. Everything is clear when uninformed. But not so clear when you actually study the topic. I would hope that this page would balance these views with reference from RS.--Inayity (talk) 19:47, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
You are way out of line. It is lame, of bad taste, and typical of Islamic apologetics, to bring qualifications into the discussion. As a Muslim, you should know the true story of Al-Jadd bin Qays, not the created story created later. The English-speaking reader may refer for example to Joseph Shafi's, p. 93-4. May be you see Qoran and Hadith are not RS? This is only a cas celebre, brought here to set the tone of the article. Islam has a clear and declared Agenda. You didn't add anything to the discussion. You ventured your reply without knowing anything. What do you know of my published research? Please learn to judge the facts brought therein. To "actually study the topic", you need to learn logic fallacies and how they are used to mis-represent the truth. For example, off-topic arguments... like qualifications. I strongly advise you to study the topic, using the correct, primary, uncensored, RS.--Connection (talk) 19:44, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request 7 December 2014[edit]

Hello. Hopefully I'm using the template right. I'd like to request that a citation (and perhaps the sentence that references it) be removed. I do not have a Wikipedia account, so apparently I can't edit this page. The citation is from the "Zakat" article in Encyclopedia of Taxation and Tax Policy. I read the article on Zakat from the referenced book, and the citation that it supports is not in the text. Thank you. (talk) 04:13, 7 December 2014 (UTC) Dan

X mark.svg Not done Google books show different extracts at different times, and to people in different places, so it may not appear in the version you see, but may well have appeared in the version the editor who added it saw.
In such cases we assume good faith especially as the quote appears in several other sources such as here and here - Arjayay (talk) 17:06, 7 December 2014 (UTC)