Talk:Isle of Man

Correcting the motto

I think the motto should read, "Wherever you throw me, I will stand", rather than "it" will stand.

Another WP site has it @ "I," which makes more sense bc it's expressing the resilience of the people. "It" makes it impersonal and vague: what's "it"?

Eternal Vigilante (talk) 13:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Stabit in Latin is the third person singular, "he", "she" or "it". If they wanted to use "I" they would have the first person singular, which would be "stabo" (I think). Dabbler (talk) 13:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

The official translation of the motto, whether right or wrong, is "Whithersoever you throw it, it will stand". As this is an official motto we should adhere to the official translation. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 14:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Amendments

In 1866 greater autonomy was restored to the island's parliament and a full transition to democracy began. The Island quickly developed as a finance centre and tourist destination, becoming increasingly prosperous during the 20th century. During both the First and Second World Wars the island was used as a location for internment camps for Central Powers and Axis citizens and suspected sympathisers.[29]

This section isn't in chronological order and leaves the timeline open to interpretion. There doesn't appear to be a clear line between the unsourced autonomy in 1866 (source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/7515569.stm#facts ) to the development of the finance sector and tourism - the word "quickly" particulalry could suggest that finance and tourism developed in the 1870's. The commencement of tourism at the end of 1800's and its rise and decline since the 1960's should be noted with the reference re WW1 and WW2 then mentioned as in chronological order particuarly considering that the internment camps used the guest houses built for the earlier rise in the tourist industry previously mentioned. Finally, the rise in the finance sector in the 1980's (http://www.gov.im/iomfinance/regulation/ipa.xml) to current stagnation should be noted(only mention i can find is an outspoken MHK http://www.manxradio.com/newsread.aspx?id=51649, with official job numbers difficult to obtain)

Agreed. The order needs to be changed in this. This happens when sections are missing information ans someone comes along and adds in the correct information without changing the context in which that information is placed. The development of tourism and finance in one sentence does need to be changed - tourism, although you suggested it started at the end of the 1800s, actually started earlier than that. The finance sector only really took off in the 1980s but mention of its start in 1973 is probably more appropriate.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

The Isle of Man is located in the middle of the northern Irish Sea, approximately equidistant from the islands of Great Britain and Ireland, within the British Isles. The closest land is southern Scotland. It is 52 kilometres (32 mi) long and, at its widest point, 22 kilometres (14 mi) wide. It has an area of around 572 square kilometres (221 sq mi).[32] Besides the island of Mann itself, the political unit of the Isle of Man includes some nearby small islands: the seasonally inhabited Calf of Man, Chicken Rock on which stands an unmanned lighthouse, St Patrick's Isle and St Michael's Isle. Both of the latter are connected to the mainland by permanent roads/causeways.

"seasonally inhabited Calf of Man". Wardens live there much of the year (http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/mnh/heritage/countryside/calfofman2.pdf) not sure where the "seasonal" suggestion originates. Source?

In answer to this one. Your source doesn't say anything about duration of the stay of the wardens. Seasonal does not mean that someone stays according to a set number of Spring, Summer, Autumn, or Winter. A football association season is 9 months long. A GAA season is 10 months long. A hurricane season is 6 months long. A season is simply an undefined period of time. Its definition comes from context. Regarding the use of the word "seasonal" here I believe it is entirely appropriate and is verifiable. I have supplied the reference. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

At the 2006 interim census,[38] Mann was home to 80,058 people, of whom 26,218 resided in the island's capital, Douglas. Most of the population was born in the British Isles, with 47.6% born in Mann, 37.2% born in England, 3.4% in Scotland, 2.1% in Northern Ireland, 2.1% in the Republic of Ireland, 1.2% in Wales and 0.3% born in the Channel Islands. The remaining 6.1% were born elsewhere in the world.

Why the change from referencing Isle of Man to Mann?

This is a long term dispute, with some editors changing Isle of Man to Mann and vice versa. In the ensuing clean ups "erratics" such as this get left behind. This has been fixed. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

The United Kingdom is responsible for the island's defence and ultimately for good governance, and for representing the island in international forums, while the island's own parliament and government have competence over all domestic matters.[39]

There should be some mention here i feel that the Isle of Man parliament/government will often follow UK decisions. This would seem relevant to a reader not familiar with the island. Examples off the top of my head would be the smoking ban in public places where the IoM govt decided to announce this after the UK government announced theirs or where the Immigration rules of the island quickly followed the UK Govts. This would allow understanding that the laws in the IoM closely follow the UK and avoids suggestion that the island is naive enough to ignore its neighbours with bigger resources to investigate issues. One of the major exceptions to this that should be noted is the lack of Freedom of Information act which, for example, means that it is difficult to prove or disprove many rumours of overspending on many government projects.

Not really an issue for this article. Discussion on this could be done in the relevant Politics of the Isle of Man or Tynwald pages. This article is to give the reader an overview of the Isle of Man with as much information as possible without overburdening the reader or the reader's computer (pages with too much info can slow down both servers and the reader's computer). Also, to you and me the legislation enacted by the government is more than likely following on from the UK. However, you would need to prove this through the relevant sources. The smoking ban as a piece of national legislation originated in Ireland, equidistant from the Isle of Man. It could be argued it came from Ireland and not the UK - simply hastened by the UKs own introduction.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

The island's parliament, Tynwald, dates from AD 979 or earlier, and claims to be the oldest continuously existing ruling body in the world.[40] Tynwald is a bicameral or tricameral legislature, comprising the House of Keys (directly elected by universal suffrage) and the Legislative Council (consisting of indirectly elected and ex-officio members). These two bodies meet together in joint session as Tynwald.

This section from the MLC wiki-page would be of more interest than "(consisting of indirectly elected and ex-officio members)" - "The MLCs are elected by the House of Keys by secret ballot for a term of 4 years. Four retire every 2 years, so four MLCs are elected at a time. A MLC must be at least 21 years old and resident in the Isle of Man."

There is already a link to both Tywnald and the Legislative Council. If a reader requires further information they can follow those links. No further clarification or detail is necessary here.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Under British law, Mann is not part of the United Kingdom. However, the UK takes care of its external and defence affairs, and retains paramount power to legislate for the island.[41] There are no independent military forces on Mann; from 1938 there was a (now disbanded) Manx Regiment of the British Territorial Army, which saw extensive action during the Second World War. There is an independent Isle of Man police force, which is controlled directly by the Isle of Man Government, but which nonetheless voluntarily submits to inspection by the UK inspectorate of police.[42]

Not really sure of the reference of action in WWII as "extensive". There should be mention that Manx people still join the British Armed forces and mention the HMS Ramsey affiliated to the town of the same name (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/surface-fleet/mine-countermeasure/sandown-class/hms-ramsey/)

The regiment participated in El-Alamein, other theatres of Egypt and Libya, Eritrea, Crete, Greece, Italy, France, Netherlands, Britain, Belgium, Germany, etc. That's 3/4 of the European theatre and under anyone's definition is fairly extensive. However, I've added in the HMS Ramsey. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 16:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Citizenship in Mann is governed by UK law. Passports issued by the Isle of Man Passport Office say "British Islands - Isle of Man" on the cover but the nationality status stated on the passport is simply "British Citizen". Although Manx passport holders are British citizens, because Mann is not part of the European Union, those without a parent or grandparent either born or resident for more than five consecutive years in the UK do not have the same rights as other British citizens with regard to employment and establishment in the EU. Isle of Man passports can be issued to any British citizen in Mann (whether or not that person has "Manx status" as an Isle of Man worker under the local Isle of Man employment laws). They can also be issued to Manx-connected British citizens residing in the UK or any of the other Crown Dependencies.

There should be mention that people moving to the island without Manx parents/grandparents require a work permit for the first five years they live on ths Isle of Man. (http://www.gov.im/ded/employmentRights/workpermits.xml) Employers are expected to ensure that there is no other Manx worker who can fulfill that job. Manx people are free to move for work (and for education) in the UK without a requirement for a work permit.

There are more conditions than just that first line you mentioned. We can't put all of them down on the article. The wording as exists is constructed using catch-all phrasing to avoid leaving any possible combinations out of question. Your second sentence has no source and I can't find any, so either find a source which states that or it can't be included. Sourced will also need to be found for the last sentence. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Source for first request via from a pdf on the link already provided: http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/ded/employmentRights/gde20100709.pdf . The second i can only find through to another wikipedia link from what i can find http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_relations_of_the_Isle_of_Man#Work_permits_and_immigration

Wikipedia can not be used as a source on Wikipedia itself - that is what's known as circular referencing. Such referencing is discouraged as there is nothing stopping anyone from inserting incorrect information on one page and using that page as a source for other incorrect information on another page. On the specific point at hand - the section is about Manx citizenship, not about the rights of migrant workers on the Island. Such information belongs in the article External relations of the Isle of Man#Work permits and immigration. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 18:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Understand and agree circular referencing which is why i said could only find the wikipedia link. expect the offending section from that page will be deleted as well as it is unsourced (although anybody from the island could confirm the point as fact). This easily links/follows on the existing comments, not sure why it can only be placed on a seperate article?

First, a point on housekeeping. I have asked you on several occasions but it appears I must ask you again. Can you please sign your comments using 4 tildes ~~~~ or by clicking on the pen symbol in the edit options menu just above the edit box (fourth icon from the left). This makes it easier for all editors to see who has said what in the conversation. Also can you please format the layout of your comments by indenting. To indent you just have to place a colon before your comment and just add one to each subsequent comment. E.g. I have placed 5 colons before this comment of mine, you should place 6 colons before your comment. It makes it easier to read the discussion as well as easier to find what you have written. It did after all take me a while to find this comment of yours. Regarding your comment on people moving to the island from the UK needing a work permit for the first 5 years, it can not go into the citizenship section - that would be like including information on the steam packet company in the sports section. It could possibly go into the following section, so if you can come up with the phrasing that would be great.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 21:25, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

The largest political party is the recently established Liberal Vannin Party, which promotes greater Manx independence and more accountability in Government. A nationalist pressure group Mec Vannin advocates the establishment of a sovereign republic.[46]

I think a mention of the Manx Labour party should be there rather than Mec Vannin who aren't a political party. Mec Vannin could perhaps be in a section regarding nationalism but the wording should not leave the reader in a position where they may be left thinking that Mec Vannin have any influence. The most notable recent visible contributions of the nationalism campaign on the island is after all just graffiti daubed on peoples walls in 2010 which Mec Vannin didn't admit links to but didn't distance themselves.

The sentence literally states "nationalist pressure group Mec Vannin". It does not call the group a party. The positioning of the group, as one of very few pressure groups or political groups is relevant and belongs in this section. To be honest I think only people who are anti-nationalist (rather than nationalist, non-nationalist or apathetic to nationalism or politics) could construe the wording as indicating the group had a lot of influence. Besides, it is adequately sourced. I hardly think an entire nationalism section with a single liner on Mec Vannin and a couple of sentences on graffiti is appropriate for an article for a geopolitical entity. I inserted information and a link on the Manx Labour Party. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Considering some of the other information on this page thats rejected, i hardly think that Mec Vannin belong on this page. They're not that important and do not represent all Nationalists

Why not? The group may not represent all Manx nationalists, but they have had representation in the form of MHKs and are still an active grouping. Your view that they are not important is rather subjective and would need sourcing if it was to be included in the article. There are of course independent nationalist political figures such as Phil Gawne, but considering we already have information on Liberal Vannin, itself a mildly nationalist party, as well as Mec Vannin, and considering the non-partisan aspect of Manx politics, I hardly think it would be a good thing to list every single MHK or MLC, but neither do I think leaving out information which is pertinent to Manx nationalism, something which is a regular feature among the various groupings in the British Isles, is a good idea either. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 18:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

The Manx government promotes island locations for making films by contributing to the production costs. Since 1995, over eighty films have been made on the island.

Mention of the film industry should not ignore the fact that the government film investment of £34m only recouped £6.7m due to poorly grossing films http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/jun/17/isle-of-man-film-industry .

Agreed and done. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Property on the Isle of Man is expensive, the average price being over £270,000, almost double the North West England average. The island is only 221 square miles, which means a limited supply of building land; population has increased 12% in the last ten years, compared with the UK average of 5%. Income has also risen at more than twice the UK rate.

If we are stating that property "is expensive", perhaps we should also state that there has been a reduction in house sales in recent years http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/slump_in_house_sales_in_island_1_2871337 . There are many houses remaining on the market for many years which could suggest overpricing of homes. References for this are difficult to find due to the nature of estate agents

Without the sources though we can't do anything about it. Wikipedia is not about the truth (everyone's definition of the truth varies) - Wikipedia is about verifiability. If it can't be verified it's up for deletion. The link you posted, while indeed suggesting a decline, is no longer current (2010 - what's the situation in 2011), it still declares house prices well above the £270,000 mark.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Well in that case is the average house price over £270k in 2011? Has the population increased 12% in the last 10 years from 2011?

To be honest, having looked again at the section, I have decided to delete it altogether. There was no information that was specific to the Isle of Man (other than the 270,000 figure), and none of it was backed up. The sentence on population and income growth was not linked in in any meaningful way and appeared entirely subjective.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 18:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

For first-time buyers this is a real problem. Many young people are opting to move to the UK because otherwise they cannot afford to move out of their parents' houses. Tynwald has recently approved an extra £2.8 million to fund the house-purchase assistance scheme which will help build affordable housing and offer grants to first time buyers.[citation needed]

"Many young people are opting to move to the UK because otherwise they cannot afford to move out of their parents' houses." This sounds like more opinion and am suprised this has been allowed, where's the source??

Agreed. And removed. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

The main telephone provider on the Isle of Man is Manx Telecom. At present, the island has two mobile operators: Manx Telecom, previously known as Manx Pronto, and Sure. For a short time, Cloud9 operated as a third mobile operator on the island, but has since withdrawn. Broadband internet services are available through four local providers which are Wi-Manx, Domicilium, Manx Computer Bureau and Manx Telecom. The island does not have its own ITU country code, but is accessed via the UK's country code (+44) and the island's telephone numbers are part of the UK telephone numbering plan with local dialling codes 01624 for landlines and 07524, 07624 and 07924 for mobiles.

There should be a little bit of background to Manx Telecom as they are such a large provider on the Isle of Man. The company was formed by British Telecom in 1986 (http://www.manxtelecom.com/company/over-120-years-of-history.aspx) and seperated from the company to mmO2 in 2001 (http://www.investegate.co.uk/article.aspx?id=200312121000031769T)

Disagree. The article is about the Isle of Man, not Manx Telecom. WP must provide equal coverage, irrespective of size - otherwise it risks running into bias territory. The only time WP provides unequal coverage is when it comes to subjects such as science (where fringe theories are outweighed), etc. Any extra info on Manx Telecom belongs in the Manx Telecom article. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no insular television service and local transmitters retransmit analogue broadcasts of BBC One and BBC Two (with BBC North West regional programmes), ITV1 (with ITV Granada regional programming) and Channel 4. Freeview is available through the local transmitters with a limited local service of digital terrestrial television being shown. In areas where local geography is favourable, terrestrial television (including digital terrestrial) can be received direct from transmitters located in the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland, with all freeviews services being available in these areas.

There is no analogue broadcast on the Isle of Man since 2009. There should be mention that the Freeview provision on the isle of man is less than the UK as the relay masts on the island have a smaller capacity than the transmitters from the UK (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/digital_d_day_could_be_disappointing_for_some_1_1790759)

Done. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 20:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Mann has three newspapers, all weeklies, and all owned by Isle of Man Newspapers. The Isle of Man Courier (distribution 36,318) is free and distributed to homes on the island. The other two newspapers are Isle of Man Examiner (circulation 13,276) and the Manx Independent (circulation 12,255).[50]

If this mentions that all newspapers are owned by IoM Newspapers, there should be mention that Isle of Man Newspapers is in turn owned by the UK company, Johnston Press (http://www.johnstonpress.co.uk/jpplc/ourbusiness/publishingdivision/division.jsp?ref=23)

Agreed and done.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 10:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The island has a total of 688 miles (1,107 km)[51] of public roads, all of which are paved. In areas denoted by derestricted signs in the Isle of Man, there is no overriding national speed restriction; only local speed limits are set. Rules for reckless driving and most other driving regulations are enforced in a manner similar to the UK.[52] There is a comprehensive bus network, operated by the government owned bus operator, Bus Vannin.

There should be mention here that in addition to the government owned bus operator there is one coach operator called Protours who have run many government contracts and helped move tourists around the island. In the period 2009 to 2011 Bus Vannin has renewed its fleet with 3 sets of new buses.(1 - http://www.manxradio.com/newsread.aspx?id=34647 , 2 - http://www.wrightbus.com/uploads_documents/IOMorderfinal.doc, 3 - http://www.gov.im/lib/news/dccl/firsttwonewmerce.xml). In 2011 the government awarded contracts to its own in-house bus operator which Protours have claimed has meant it has had to re-consider their future. As of September 2011 Protours has reduced its workforce and is re-considering their future. (http://www.energyfm.net/cms/news_story_161662.html)

A bus network is not the same as a tour or coach service. A bus network is provided for public transport, while a tour or coach service is generally for private hire for tours, expeditions, rental to and from games, concerts, weddings, etc. They are not the same thing. Regarding the updating of the fleet - I don't think that is pertinent to an article about a semi-independent state. You wouldn't have information on the UK page about the BBC getting new computers, or on the USA page about United Airlines ordering new aircraft. That type of information is best left to the article in question - in this case the article Bus Vannin.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 10:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Coach service has been key to the IoM for tourism as well as running many government services. They're not just a holiday travel company that you may get where you live

There are many coach services in Ireland but none of these are mentioned on the article about Ireland. Coach services are not official state services. They may be paid for by the state, but they are not state services. Being key for tourism does not make a coach service a bus network. What government services are you speaking of? In other words, is the service notable - i.e. would someone from Richmond, Virginia or from Canberra want to know about it to get an idea of what the Manx government provides in terms of transport? Think WP:NOTE. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 18:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Is someone from Richmond, Virginia or from Canberra going to be interested in all the information in the (largely unreferenced) section on this page about the Manx language which the article confirms (using now historic 2001 figures?!) that just 2.2% of the population on the island claim to have any knowledge of (thats knowledge of, not fluent Manx speakers and thats including many younger people that the article suggests have now studied it at school, some apparently as a second language). Surely much of this section should be correctly referenced and be on the Manx language article? Will it be of interest to those people in Richmonds that there are degree's available in the language (amongst a host of many other subjects available); that there are apparently Manx language playgroups (is it even plural), that there are two phrases in moghrey mie and fastyr mie that exist in the Manx language; that there's no differentiation of evening and afternoon in the language; that you can buy chips cheese and gravy on the island as you can in most greasy take aways in Britain; that there's an annual game of Cammag (that the source confirms was historically a national sport) and is now played once a year; will they care about the legends and folklore in some sections of the article

First off, this article is about the Isle of Man. The information people will want to know are general information on the more important aspects as well as official details. As Manx is one of two languages with official status in the Isle of Man it would be of great interest to many people, irrespective of the numbers who speak it and to what degree they speak it. 2001 figures are used as there are no figures more recent than that that are verifiable - census 2011 figures have not yet been released for the number of speakers of Manx. Much of this section is already included and indeed expanded upon in the relevant article. And yes Manx language playgroups is indeed in the plural - ever heard of Mooinjer Veggey? As a speaker of Manx very much in contact with those in the Manx language community I can guarantee you that there are more than one - indeed there is even growing demand for a Manx language kindergarden. You say there are a host of many other subjects available - this is news to me. Are they all entirely through Manx or only partly through Manx - after all, the section is about the Manx language, not education in general. The language is dealt with here as languages are dealt with in every other article dealing with a semi-, or fully sovereign geopolitical entity. Unless of course you want to give the impression that there is no Manx language, that all vestiges of Manx culture, heritage, tradition are dead and that the Manx ceased to exist. You seem to be peddling the line of someone who wants the IoM to simply be another county of England. You want references to the Manx language removed. You want references to Manx nationalism removed. You want references to Manx culture removed. You want references to Manx varieties of sport removed. It very much strikes me that you are not interested in creating or contributing to an encyclopaedia. You claim some editors, and the content of this article, smacks of a Celticist agenda, while at the same time you yourself would have the article cleansed of anything that could be remotely considered Celtic! ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 21:25, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Not at all, I want the page to be a realistic overview of the Isle of Man. You personally restrict what topics are allowed on the article deciding that some content should be on articles of their own if you seem them not relevant to the page. But because you study the Manx Language you deem that a whole section of unreferenced (not saying it isn't true but my point is that you do insist everything else is referenced) is relevant to this page in the context you want to create. Yet if it was other content you would dictate that it should belong in a page of its own. What you appear to normally suggest (based on your previous judgements) is a mention of the Manx language and confirmation that there has been some interest in recent years, then the other detail should be on its own page and fully referenced. Thats if you stick to the standards that you've set out. You certainly wouldn't allow things to be added by others if they gave the reference of "As a speaker of Manx very much in contact with those in the Manx language community I can guarantee you that there are more than one - indeed there is even growing demand for a Manx language kindergarden." As someone who lives here I can tell you that of course there is a Manx language community and long may it last but Manx is very infrequently used, and no I'm not Dougy born. Do you want to know the most common usage of Manx on the island? Its one word - "yessir". Manx "varieties" of sports? Varieties? You mean the game thats played once a year? The Isle of Man is not another county of England, however in reality it is far, far more British now than Celtic no matter what opposing text is put on Wikipedia. The Celtic references here are important parts of our long history, and we maintain reminders of it around us all the time - in Museums, Celtic crosses, school in St Johns and of course the 8 Manx words that 16 year olds seem to generally remember when they leave school. I say remember, of course i mean just about pronounce, but seemingly can't spell. There are obviously exceptions to the rule and maybe in 10 years time there will be an increase in knowledge and maybe there'll be two Cammag games a year. But to me, an encyclopedia is about being being accurate - not about being selective and creating a picture that one person wants it to be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.28.11.163 (talk) 08:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

These sorts of ad hominem attccks on each other's motives and intentions are not appropriate and both of you should stop.

To the unnamed User, your persistent inability to follow Wikipedia etiquette as requested by signing and indenting your postings reduces the chance that anyone will take you seriously here. Regardless of your actual motives, many Wikipedia editors will perceive you as an anonymous troll.

This article is not the best place for detailed information which is given elsewhere, it is intended to give an overview, so where there is a Main article details can be restricted a bit. However, it should not overemphasise what is different and "exotic" at the expense of the mundane. This is not a tourist brochure, although the Isle of Man does have many unique features, including its own language which is undergoing a bit of revival, it is not going to be anyone's primary means of communication outside the home anytime soon that should be clear to a new reader. On the other hand, the Manx Celtic culture does differentiate it from the closest bits of England, Cumbria, which were originally just as Celtic but have been overwhelmed because they are too closely attached to the non-Celtic bits of England. The survival and revival of such Celticism is a feature of the Isle of Man which is of importance to the general reader.

Please try and keep the discussion to what should be in the article, not each other, please remember the Wikipedia NPOV (neutral point of view) policy and please sign your posts! Dabbler (talk) 10:52, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The Isle of Man Sea Terminal in Douglas is served by frequent ferries to and from Liverpool and Heysham and more limited summer-only services to and from Belfast and Dublin. All ferries are operated by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company.

This isn't accurate. The Isle of Man Sea Terminal in Douglas is served year round by frequent ferries to and from Heysham. In the summer months frequent ferries also run to and from Liverpool with a much reduced service in the winter. There are also limited summer-only services to and from Belfast and Dublin. All ferries are operated by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company who have a user agreement in place for exclusive regular passenger ferry usage of the Sea Terminal until 2020 (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/steam_packet_abiding_by_user_agreement_select_committee_1_1787977)

Agreed that this should be changed to reflect that. And done. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 10:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The only commercial airport on the island is the Isle of Man Airport at Ronaldsway. There are scheduled and chartered flights to numerous airports in the United Kingdom and Ireland, as well as charter and occasional scheduled services to airports in France, the Netherlands, Spain and Switzerland.

There are for sure occasional charters to Switzerland and Spain, but the other countries lack sources for a reason. There are many ad-hoc charters, but a list would be misleading as too infrequent to be of relevance. Of much more relevance would be Aer Aranns codeshare with Etihad Airways on flights to the Isle of Man enabling international flight connections to be booked to the Isle of Man via Dublin airport.

Best to remove named countries (you can charter a plane anywhere) and simply state "further afield". Agree Aer Arann should be included.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 10:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Ronaldsway Airport was originally a Royal Navy base later developed into the main airport on the Isle of Man. http://www.iom-airport.com/virtual/history/. There were two further military airfields in the north of the island at Jurby and Andreas, both former RAF training bases. Whilst both runways are still in place, the Jurby site is now mainly used for motorsport, light industry and is also home to the new Isle of Man prison (http://ukga.com/airfield/jurby) whilst the Andreas site is a private strip available for leisure and sports flying. (http://www.manxpilots.com/IOM_Airfields_-_Andreas.html)

Disagree on the inclusion of this. This section is about current transport in the IoM - not about the current uses for previous facilities.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 10:57, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The island used to have an extensive narrow-gauge railway system, both steam-operated and electric, but the majority of the steam railway tracks have been taken out of service and the track removed. Currently there is a steam railway which runs between Douglas and Port Erin, an electric railway which runs between Douglas and Ramsey and an electric mountain railway which climbs Snaefell. The lines are mostly operated for the benefit of tourists, though some people use them for commuting.

A comparison here could be made to the Isle of Wight where commuter train services have been maintained in modern times where as the Isle of Man has pulled up much track and used the remaining track for heritage purposes. To avoid links being suggested to the reader that this was a similar circumstance to Dr Beaching in the UK, it should be stated that these lines were pulled up prior to the finance industry being developed by the Isle of Man government when tourist numbers had collapsed and when there was greater competition from buses (http://www.iomguide.com/steamrailway.php). There have been attempts in the past to encourage commuters onto the trains during TT but they are unsuccessful as the services are twice as expensive and much slower than the existing bus network. The section "The lines are mostly operated for the benefit of tourists, though some people use them for commuting" is misleading.

A comparison could also be made with Ireland and many other locations. Maintaining commuter services while removing other lines is a common feature of rail transport throughout the western world. The last line, though, should be removed - it is unsourced and potentially unverifiable.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 12:20, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The Isle of Man has become an enclave for emerging space travel companies, employing fifteen people. A number of the competitors in the Google Lunar X Prize, a $30 million competition for the first privately funded team to send a robot to the moon, are based on the Island. The team summit for the X Prize was held on the Island in October 2010. In 2010 the Island was named the fifth most likely nation to reach the moon next. [53]

The enclave is supposed to be more than space travel companies. There are companies such as CVI Technical Optics (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/offshorefinance/8644850/Lift-off-for-Isle-of-Mans-quest-to-join-space-race.html) producing some small components and so the enclave will have more than 15 people employed which i am suprised has been allowed to be stated on here without immediate deletion. There should be some context added to this section as it appears to have otherwise been lifted from a government press release. There should be a mention that the Isle of Man has become attractive for basing offices here for tax reasons. There should also be a mention that there were sections of a space station recently bought to the Island and stored at Jurby Airfield as this did make international news. Their presence however could be seen as a PR event as there are no clear sources to confirm whether they will be refurbished on the Isle of Man or (as also suggested) returned back to Russia. This lack of confirmation was despite the government appearing to be very involved in talking about their presence on the island.

I have deleted the number of people employed. No sources indicate the amount shown - indeed I can't find out how many are employed. Inserted your reference in the relevant section. I also removed the word enclave. It may be possible to describe the IoM as a space commerce exclave but it is certainly not an enclave. If it was a space commerce enclave there would be no space commerce there at all, but there would be in the UK and Ireland. The offshore concept of the IoM for tax reasons is discussed elsewhere. The space station sections is important and I've included it. The final two sentences are not encyclopaedic; the use of "could be" is speculative. The entire sentence is hypothetical, biased and lacks sourcing. Also who could see it as a PR event? All these need sourcing. The last sentence also includes weasel words (appearing to be involved) - either they are or they are not.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 12:20, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The culture of the Isle of Man is influenced by its Celtic, and to a lesser extent its Norse, origins. However, its close proximity to the UK, popularity as a UK tourist destination, and recent mass immigration by British migrant workers has meant that British influence has been dominant since the Revestment period. Recent revival campaigns have attempted to preserve the surviving vestiges of Manx culture after a long period of Anglicisation, and significant interest in the Manx language, history and musical tradition has been the result.

I think this section again is lacking of information and context. Something along the lines of "The culture of the Isle of Man was historically influenced by its Celtic, and to a lesser extent its Norse, origins. However, its close proximity to the UK and successful promotion by the Isle of Man government as a tourist destination in the late 1800's to the 1960's had an influence on the cultural make up of the country. In the 1980's, the Isle of Man government appealed to UK finance companies to set up subsidaries on the island in order to boost the Manx economy. In order to fill positions in the industry with skilled, qualified and/or experienced workers, many people moved to the island highlighting the British influence that has been dominant since the Revestment period. There have been continual revival campaigns to attempted to preserve the historic Celtic culture. As a result there has been an increase in interest in the Manx language, history and music."

Historically is incorrect. Last I checked there was Manx traditional music. There was an active language revival movement. You can still see the Celtic influence in the use of a traditional Celtic script on certain coins and organisations. Other Celtic influences which still exist include Hop-tu-naa and Manx folklore. These still exist. To say Manx culture was historically influenced by its Celtic origins would be to suggest that no Celtic influence remains at all. The sentences about the popularity of the Island as a UK tourist destination is fine as is - any supplementary information would simply be repetition of information already present in the article. Your point on the 1980s excludes others who came to the Island for other reasons (construction, IT, hotelier, etc.). I think the current wording is fine and quite rightly does not delve too deeply into unnecessary details. The section is, after all, one which is concerned with culture, not details of the workforce. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The Manx language is closely related to the Irish language and Scottish Gaelic. By the middle of the 20th century only a few elderly native speakers remained: the last of them, Ned Maddrell, died on 27 December 1974. By then a scholarly revival had begun to spread to the populace and many had learned Manx as a second language. The first native speakers of Manx (bilingual with English) in many years have now appeared: children brought up by Manx-speaking parents. Primary immersion education in Manx is provided by the Manx government: since 2003, the former St John's School building has been used by the Bunscoill Ghaelgagh (Manx language-medium school). Degrees in Manx are available from the Isle of Man College and the Centre for Manx Studies. Manx-language playgroups also exist and Manx language classes are available in island schools. In the 2001 census, 1,689 out of 76,315, or 2.2% of the population, claimed to have knowledge of Manx, although the degree of knowledge in these cases was presumably varied.

This entire section exagerates the use of the language here. If I were to read this section as somebody who isn't from here, i'd probably think there were many fluent speakers and many people using it a second language. I can only guess that this has been written by somebody who doesn't live here and/or who is trying to push the Celtic links.

How does it exaggerate the use of the language? It accurately states that 2.2% (and lists the figure) of the population speak the language to some degree. If anyone reads "2.2% of a population speaking a language to some degree" and interprets that as "there are a lot of fluent speakers" then it is the reader who has a problem, and not the article itself.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to see a reference/source for "By then a scholarly revival had begun to spread to the populace and many had learned Manx as a second language".

Done. Two references provided. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I also don't see the need for the last section "although the degree of knowledge in these cases was presumably varied". That 2.2% have knowledge of (rather than stating that they are fluent, for example) makes it clear the actual level of use of the Manx language on the island.

No it doesn't. For example, in the Irish census there is no tick box for stating fluent. This article isn't just for those on the IoM - different census structures, different interpretations of English, etc. all lead to the necessity of that statement.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

In common use are the greetings moghrey mie and fastyr mie which mean good morning and good afternoon respectively. The Manx language knows no evening as it is afternoon. Another frequently heard Manx expression is traa dy liooar meaning time enough, and represents a stereotypical view of the Manx attitude to life.

The terms "moghrey mie and fastyr mie" are not in "common" use. They are mentioned on Manx Radio but other than that very infrequently other than in humour. They are examples of Manx phrases as are all at the following link http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/manx.php Traa dy liooar is again not heard that frequently other than as scarcasm as it does indeed represent a stereotypical view of Manx attitude to life as well as customer service (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/business/is_manx_customer_service_that_bad_1_1757592)

I agree that the wording here needs to be altered. I have changed the text in the article to a less contentious version. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm also suprised that there isn't space dedicated for the use of the language in companies and on signage. For example, many government building signs stationary normally have departmental names stated with smaller manx translations underneath. Isle of Man Water has Ushtey written on all vans and is probably the most commonly seen Manx word on the Isle of Man. However it should be made clear that the usage of the Manx language is in no way comparable to Wales, as an example.

This is already discussed in the article on the Manx language. Again, the article is about the Isle of Man - not every minute detail needs discussing here.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

A more recent claim for the title of national dish would be the ubiquitous chips, cheese and gravy. This dish, which is similar to poutine, is found in most of the island's fast-food outlets, and consists of thick cut chips, covered in shredded Manx Cheddar cheese and topped with a thick gravy.[63]

Chips, cheese and gravy is ubiquitous in that it is served in many parts of the UK, not exclusively and ubiquitously on the Isle of Man - not the context suggested. Greater detail here - "shredded Manx cheddar cheese" surely grated is the word and take-outs do not exclusively use Manx cheddar, I would like to see a source that confirms otherwise. A genuine source for the claim it is the national dish rather than mentioned as a joke would be hard to find, probably impossible.

The article doesn't state it is not used elsewhere, nor does it say it originated in the Isle of Man. There is a difference between being a dish that is the national dish and being a dish with its origins in a particular nation. Chips themselves originated in Belgium. Agree with removing Manx cheddar. The source does not back this up. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Seafood has traditionally accounted for a large proportion of the local diet. Although commercial fishing has declined in recent years, local delicacies include Manx kippers (smoked herring) which are produced by the smokeries in Peel on the west coast of the island, albeit mainly from North Sea herring these days[citation needed]. The smokeries also produce other specialities including smoked salmon and bacon. Crab, lobster and scallops are commercially fished, and the Queen Scallop (Queenies) is regarded as a particular delicacy, with a light, sweet flavour. Cod, ling and mackerel are often angled for the table, and freshwater trout and salmon can be taken from the local rivers and lakes, supported by the Government fish hatchery at Cornaa.

There could be mention with the above that fish restaurants are few and far between for an island thats obviously surrounded by sea water. I'm not sure it should state that Queenies are regarded as "a particular delicacy"

I've provided a source for "delicacy".^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Cattle, sheep, pigs and poultry are all commercially farmed, Manx lamb from the hill-farms being a popular dish. The Loaghtan, the indigenous breed of Manx sheep, has a rich, dark meat that has found favour with chefs, featuring in dishes on the BBC's MasterChef series.

Is there a source for finding favour with chefs above and beyond another period in time? Also the only MasterChef source i can personally find is a contestant serving it at a Manx food festival ... on the Isle of Man.

Yes. And I've added them in. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Manx cheese has been a particular success, featuring smoked and herb-flavoured varieties and is stocked by many of the UK's supermarket chains. Manx cheese took bronze medals in the 2005 British Cheese Awards, and sold 578 tonnes over the year.

I'm not comfortable that the word "particular" is relevent here.

"Particular" removed, but relevant sources added. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The Isle of Man is represented as a nation in the Commonwealth Games and the Island Games and will be hosting the IV Commonwealth Youth Games in 2011. Manx athletes have won three gold medals at the Commonwealth Games, the most recent being in 2006 by cyclist Mark Cavendish in the Scratch race. The Island Games were first held on the island in 1985, and again in 2001.

The mention of the Island Games doesn't fit in this paragraph about the Commonwealth Games. The Isle of Man founded the Island Games as part of its "Year of Sport" in 1985. Its intention is to allow island nations the chance to compete on a more level playing field rather than, for example, inter county sports that the Island had previously competed in http://www.islandgames.net/iga/history.html

If you can provide alternative wording we can add it in. I'm not sure how to reword the phrasing here as I'm not sure what exactly concerns you in this paragraph.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 14:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The main international event associated with the island is the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy race, colloquially known as "The TT",[65] which began in 1907. It takes place in late May and early June. The TT is now an international road racing event for motorcycles, which used to be part of the World Championship, and is long considered to be one of the "greatest motorcycle sporting events of the world".[66] Taking place over a two week period, it has become a festival for motorcycling culture, makes a huge contribution to the island’s economy and has become part of Manx identity.[67] For many, the Isle carries the title "road racing capital of the world".[68]

The Manx Grand Prix is a separate motorcycle event for amateurs and private entrants that uses the same 60.70 km (37.72 mi)[69] Snaefell Mountain Course in late August and early September.

No mention of the many deaths during both the TT and Grand Prix which is the main reason that they get any mention in the international press (even if the deaths are rarely covered in the IoM press)? Nor the chance to then give the argument from the riders that they know the risks before competing?

No need to mention the deaths. Deaths can be attributed to pretty much all TT and GP events throughout the world. It's like saying "soccer is a popular game ans sometimes people get injured"!.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 14:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Cammag is the national sport of Mann. It is similar to the Irish hurling, and the Scottish game of shinty. Once the most popular sport on the island, it ceased to be played by the start of the 20th century, but has recently been revived, with an annual match at St John's.

I'd like to see a source confirming that Cammag is still the national sport of the island. Football is the main sport along with Rugby and Cycling. I assume Cammag appears to be included because of its historical Celtic link.

"National" and "popular" carry two completely different, though sometimes overlapping, meanings. Its use here is appropriate as its popularity can be deduced from the fact that "it ceased to be played". It's not included because of any Celtic link - its included because it exists. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 14:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Manx Loaghtan Sheep are bred for their meat on the island and have an important place in Manx cuisine.

I'd question the use of the word "important" - this is just opinion and cannot be sourced, for good reason. Manx Loagthan sheep are bred in the isle of man but not many and in far less numbers than other sheep. I would suggest some context could be added here to make it clear for the reader. Also, the paragraph below is two paragraphs from the original mention of the breed above.

The Manx Loaghtan sheep is a breed native to the island. It has dark brown wool and four or sometimes six horns. The meat is considered to be a delicacy. There are several flocks on the island and others have been started in England and Jersey.

This section is specifically dedicated to Manx animals. There are other animals, including other varieties of sheep, but they are not Manx specific. The original mention was to do with culture and cuisine. This section is to do with biota - hence the separation. I have replaced the word "important" with "traditional" which is sourced. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 14:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

See also section

The current See also section includes the following links:

• Outline of the Isle of Man
• Anglo-Manx
• Biota of the Isle of Man
• Celtic languages
• Celtic nations
• Celts
• Coins of the Manx pound
• Ethnic groups in Europe
• Isle of Man Incinerator
• List of not fully sovereign nations
• Manx cat
• Peel Engineering Company
• Raad ny Foillan, long distance footpath
• Towns in the Isle of Man
• Vehicle registration plates of the Isle of Man
• Windmills in the Isle of Man

While I understand that each of these articles directly involves the Isle of Man, I feel that most of them are not appropriate in this section. Certainly Outline of the Isle of Man belongs here. However, I feel that Anglo-Manx does not. It should be mentioned in the languages section, but not in a "See also" section. Celtic languages should not be listed at all. It is already linked in the section on the Manx language and is included in the "See also" section on that language's article. Celtic nations probably could be included in this section, but not Celts, as that is an article which deals predominantly with the historic peoples extant during the turn of the BCE and CE eras. Coins of the Manx pound should also be removed and dealt with in the relevant Manx pound article. Ethnic groups in Europe should also be removed, as currently there are more non-Manx people living on the Island than native Manx, and is not really relevant to any article on the Island. Certainly it could and should be mentioned on the article on Manx people. Isle of Man Incinerator has nothing to do with the Island, other than the fact that exists. If we include that why not include an article on every business and building on the Isle of Man in this section too? Similarly with Peel Engineering Company. List of not fully sovereign nations should also be removed, but in its place the article Crown Dependencies should be placed, in a similar fashion as British Overseas Territories is listed in the "See also" section for Gibraltar. Raad ny Foillan would be better placed in the Geography of the Isle of Man article or some related article, but not here. This is an article about the country as a whole, not certain parts of it. Towns in the Isle of Man should be removed from this section and instead inserted in the Geography section which lacks information dealing with the settlements of the Island. Vehicle registration plates of the Isle of Man should be removed entirely and placed in the Transport in the Isle of Man article. I also don't feel that Windmills in the Isle of Man is appropriate in this section either, but am struggling to find where else that article could be placed. Thoughts or suggestions anyone? ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 12:46, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

If a link appears in the article text it shouldn't appear in the see also, so both Celtic ones are covered already, as is the manx cat and manx pound. All the specific places can probably go easily. Windmills could go in the Economy article somewhere. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:58, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

OK. So, before I clear them out, which ones specifically do you think we should leave in there? Just so we're clear on it. I'll leave it alone anyway for a day or two, just to allow others to comment on what ones they feel can be removed and to see of they have any suggestions as to what could be included (including any links not currently included). ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:07, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Just the outline and the list of towns really. Everything else is too tangential or already included, and your solutions are good. Normally a list of towns would be a see also in a demographics section, but demographics seems to have been split up in this article. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:19, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Name

Is it possible to use just the word "Man" as a short name for the island? Or do I have to use "Mann"? How did this happen, that the short form has double "n", while the long form has only a single "n"? Mountleek (talk) 18:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure as to why you can't, but it is an unwritten rule that the island is referred to as the "Isle of Man" in long form and "Mann" in short form. You would rarely use "Isle of Mann" and almost never use simply "Man". As far as I know "Mann" is the original form which stems from both Old Norse (as in "Mannisk", the ON term for Manx, which is where we get the word Manx) and Manx "Mannin". It was later shortened to "Man" in the phrase "Isle of Man". ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 23:15, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a mention of LGBT rights in the Isle of Man?

Since one of the few facts most UK people know about the Isle of Man is the fact that homosexuality was illegal there until recently, should there not at least be a mention in the main article, or at least a link? Rachel Pearce (talk) 14:36, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

That's the great thing about Wikipedia, Rachel. It's free for all to edit. Something about LGBT issues could indeed be included, and should probably be included under the culture section (perhaps under a sub-title called Society as per the Republic of Ireland article). I wouldn't focus on it being illegal until recently - certainly mention it along with the relevant references. You should also mention the current status, including what provisions there are - i.e. Civil partnerships, marriage rights, etc. if there are any, etc. ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 19:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)