Talk:Israel

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Notes[edit]

References

Cite error: A list-defined reference with group name "" is not used in the content (see the help page).

Israel was ranked the 11th-happiest country in the world (2015 report)[edit]

Hi guys.

I found the level of "happines" in Israel, and it's strong contrast to neighboring countries interesting. Should one consider to mention this in the main article?

  • 11: Israel
  • 82: Jordan
  • 103: Lebanon
  • 108: Palestinian Territories
  • 135: Egypt
  • 156: Syria
  • 158: (Togo came on last place)


The summary in The Algemeiner seems to match the numbers in the World Happines Report 2015, but I have no idea if the publisher is credible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aleckwise (talkcontribs) 07:53, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Here is another source. WarKosign 07:56, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
If used , in English Wikipedia perhaps the most relevant comparisons might be to English speaking nations. GregKaye 20:45, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
Beware of Wikipedia:Systemic bias. WarKosign 07:54, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I always do. GregKaye 10:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Notes[edit]

References

Cite error: A list-defined reference with group name "" is not used in the content (see the help page).

Mossad le-Aliya Bet[edit]

Although the literal translation of "Aliya Bet" is the meaningless "immigration B" (or "immigration 2") the actual meaning was "illegal immigration". This is well known and easily cited. The purpose of the "Bet" was to distinguish it from legal immigration. Zerotalk 07:03, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, Mossad LeAliyah Bet "was facilitating illegal immigration in violation of governmental British restrictions". However, writing ("Institution for Illegal Immigration") near its name implies that this is the translation of its name, which is incorrect. "lit." near the arguably meaningless literal translation makes sure we do not mislead the readers. We could write (which facilitated illegal immigration), but the nature of the institution is explained in the following sentence. I suggest to either restore the literal translation or remove the clarification entirely, it is already available in the wikilinked article.WarKosign 07:31, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
I think that what was there will only confuse readers. Literally "Bet" is the second letter of the alphabet, but its meaning in this context is something like "alternative". I don't mind omitting it, given that there is a wikilink to where a longer explanation is (hopefully) available. The following sentences are a bit of a whitewash but I'm not on that case at the moment. Zerotalk 09:21, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

"appallingly biased casualty summary"[edit]

Monochrome Monitor wrote "Approximately 1,000 Israelis were murdered in the suicide bombings that had characterized the Second Intifada." it made several claims:

  • ~1000 Israelis were killed by suicide bombings in the Second Intifada
  • Suicide bombings were acts of murder
  • Suicide bombings characterized the Second Intifada

@Zero0000: Do you dispute correctness of any of these claims ? Which of these claims do you find appallingly biased, and what would you write instead ?WarKosign 08:30, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Including military casualties under "murdered" and omitting more than 3 times as many Palestinian deaths is a fine example of appalling bias. Zerotalk 09:08, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
1,137 Israelis were killed in suicide bombings, 887 out of them civilians. Most of soldiers killed were off-duty, so they were not killed in their military facility. We could add the number of Palestinians killed in these suicide bombings, I expect it to be equal to the number of the bombings themselves. Do you see numbers of Israeli casualties in any article on Palestinians ? This is an article on Israel, not on Palestine or Second Intifada, so there is no reason to include the numbers of Palestinian causalities here, but we could wikilink to Second Intifada.WarKosign 09:33, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
It was a part of the Second Intifada and we can't only mention what happened to one side of the conflict. He also removed "allegedly" from the claim that the Palestinians "planned" the Second Intifada. Many other things was also changed without consulting with the sources. I have seen Monochrome Monitor do it on other articles too and it must be stressed that this can't be done. If the info is wrong, you get new, reliable sources and don't otherwise remove parts that have been said by the sources that are already there. Other changes were to remove that it is disputed that Jerusalem is Israel's capital and that parts of the Palestinian territories are occupied. I will revert them so this can be discussed. --IRISZOOM (talk) 10:11, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
The claim "most of soldiers were off-duty" is a false claim (actually most were in the territories on duty). So is "1,137 Israelis were killed in suicide bombings". Israel never recognised an off-duty status for Palestinians at all. But that is not relevant. The rules require the full story to be told in a neutral manner, not a fraction of the story according to some editor's opinion. Zerotalk 12:02, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
I'll change murdered to killed, it was a bit POV. As for Palestinian deaths, the context is about the West Bank Barrier, which had been constructed to stop suicide bombings.--Monochrome_Monitor 12:56, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Not sure why you deleted it. It's pretty important in understanding context. Also, I stand by my edits. Which in particular do you object to? --Monochrome_Monitor 13:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
It is appaling but it is the usual pattern. All sorts of things are written about Israeli casualties and damage, many of the gets dedicated memorial pages, but when it comes to Palestinian casualties, they are minimized or even ridiculed, facts gets removed, they are drive-by tagged, WP:AFD are created etc. Israel gets portrayed as only defending itself while Palestinians are the "terrorists". Statements they can find of any Palestinian saying something awful about Jews must be mentioned (like from Memri TV), not so much when it comes to Israelis. Very respectful NGO's like Amnesty and B'Tselem are portrayed as suspicious while CAMERA etc. are being used.
Just look at Civilian casualties in the Second Intifada. The International Institute for Counter-Terrorism (ICT) gets quoted about "887 (78 percent) of the 1,137 Israelis killed in Arab terrorist attacks from September 2000 – 2005 were civilians". Just look at the next section, the one about Palestinian casualties. After starting explaning what the section is about (that it is a list Palestinian civilian casualties), it is followed with again quoting ICT who claim 3,179 Palestinians were killed (stated as a fact), while saying it is disputed how many were civilians and how many were not. Then B'Tselem is presented as "claiming" 46% of the Palestinian casualties from 2000 to 2008 were civilians. It is followed by "However, B'tselem has been accused of inflating Palestinian civilian casualties and repeatedly classifying armed terrorists as civilians" and references to a column by Caroline Glick, statements by CAMERA, NGO Monitor and JCPA. ---IRISZOOM (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I mentioned some of the issues but can expand on it.

  • [1] That the capital city is "disputed" is changed to "de facto". You should read WP:RFC/J. You also remove that Gaza is occupied as you say it "is no longer occupied". Many still considers it to be occupied and if you look at the note, you will see the discussion about that dispute. You also removed "East Jerusalem" because as you say, it is not mentioned in the sources. However, it is part of the West Bank and certainly the Palestinian territories, just like the Gaza Strip is. So the statement could easily be changed to be about the Palestinian territories instead.
  • [2] At least the tags about that casualties are valid.
  • [3] If the statement is wrong, delete it and get a new source.
  • [4] The parts about laws is important because Israel have issued several that have been viewed as annexation. The last part seems questionable as for example UNSC have issued resolutions that say "null and void" etc.
  • [5] The First Intifada was, especially in the first years, to a great extent nonviolent and it was against the Israel occupation. It is not POV to say that Israeli is the occupying power.
  • [6] Again, if the source is wrong, argue for that backed up with a new source.
  • [7] This can't be stated as a fact.
  • [8] The first addition is not wrong, however. you should still get a source for that (the description of the peace talks is lacking context though). First part of the next addition is okay, though it should be changed to that it "accelerated" the ending according to that source. The second part have been discussed here, namely the casualties of the Second Intifada. Lastly, you removed that it was the Israeli view that they "responded". It actually started when Israel killed Ahmed Jabari.
  • [9] This is not true. Some 2,000-3,000 live in the Jewish Quarter.

So that is why I reverted your changes. --IRISZOOM (talk) 13:53, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

The source you added about Barak's offer is about Olmert's. I will later add about the other, very known view of Barak's offer.

Why did you again make it look like a fact that Israel only "responded" to rocket attacks? It has nothing to do with WP:WEASEL. It is this I described here above about a usual pattern that is bad. For example, you ignore Israel's killing of Ahmed Jabari. --IRISZOOM (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

You're right about the Jewish quarter, I was wrong. As for responding to rocket attacks, we also accept it at face value the "economic and cultural measures aimed at disrupting the Israeli occupation", which is pretty POV in itself. --Monochrome_Monitor 14:46, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
And more problems:
  • "The proposed state included the entirety of the Gaza Strip and over 90% of the West Bank with Jerusalem as a shared capital". In addition to what Iris noted, the source says nothing about Jerusalem as a shared capital.
  • "Eichmann remains the only person executed in Israel". This is simply false, see Meir Tobianski. The previous wording was designed to exclude military courts.
  • US courts might imagine they can determine historical facts in foreign countries, but that has no weight here.
  • MM has a poor understanding of WP:NPOV. Being able to find sources that support a viewpoint does not entitle one to include that viewpoint and ignore others. Since there is serious dissent on the subject of whether the second intifada was planned, it is a policy violation to present only one viewpoint.
MM, many of your first round of changes can be argued as reverts. Some of your second round are definitely reverts. I remind you of the 1RR restriction this article.
Zerotalk 14:47, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
I didn't add back the bit about Israeli casualties in the second intifada, though I still think it's important for context. --Monochrome_Monitor 14:55, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Well, the Palestinians did rise up against the Israeli occupation. Many have today forgotten that it was to a great extent nonviolent, as I have seen Norman Finkelstein say, but it does not change the historical facts. It is simply: if it is a fact, state it. If it is not, attribute it. We can't say Israel "responded" to rocket attacks. However, even the attribution does not make the sentence good, as the killing of Ahmed Jabari is highly relevant but is ignored. --IRISZOOM (talk) 15:06, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
While killing Jabari was not directly due to the rocket attacks, it was certainly indirectly due to them. Anyway, what do you suggest instead?--Monochrome_Monitor 15:27, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Also you're right that the first intifada had a large non-violent component, though the second intifada was largely violent. --Monochrome_Monitor 15:28, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
BBC writes for example "Israel's offensive on Gaza began with an air strike that killed the commander of Hamas's military wing, Ahmed Jabari, whom it accused of responsibility for "all terrorist activities against Israel from Gaza" over the past decade". --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:10, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

My suggestion would be for an article to be written as something like Casualties in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, List of casualties in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or Chronology of casualties in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. On this basis I would suggest that an agreement by RfC or similar means might be worked out that every reference to casualties of killings in any Israeli, Palestinian or other related article be linked to this article. GregKaye 11:46, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Monochrome making this article Monochrome[edit]

Monochrome Monitor, please do not remove these subtle terms of balance from the article without proper discussion. This is an insidious form of editing and is wholly unacceptable. Examples:

  • [10]: removed "allegedly", as if New York courts can decide an issue of Middle Eastern history of which they know nothing, in a neutral fashion
  • [11]: removed "what it said was a", as if pretexts for war are beyond question.

Oncenawhile (talk) 15:53, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not alleged. Do you really the decision of a US court was baseless? It was based on thousands of documents which established that the Second Intifada, rather than being "spontaneous", was extensively planned and financed by the PA. Have you seen these documents? "What it said was a", is fairly conspiratorial. Whether you think the war was justified is a different issue. Why else would they go to war? Because they enjoy killing? --Monochrome_Monitor 16:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
New York courts do not have jurisdiction over Middle Eastern history, just like they do not have the ability to recognise racism and bigotry with respect to the same. Oncenawhile (talk) 16:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
I agree those ads were inflammatory, and wrongly conflated islam with jew hatred, but that's besides the point. It's more than a US court, it's the overwhelming majority of evidence. Fatah officials have even stated that the second Intifada was pre-planned. --Monochrome_Monitor 16:22, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
We follow scholarly sources at wikipedia, not policitized court hearings or the views of cherrypicked "officials". Anyway, the court hearings did not confirm what you say they did. If you want to use the case, link to its wiki article and be specific about its findings. We also need to recognise its shortcomings, such as those described by Michael Ratner here.
On the "what it said was a", we can change the language as you prefer, but it we cannot just delete the caveat. Neither Israeli or Palestinian military or political points of view should be described in wikipedia's neutral voice. Caveats or attributions are necessary in all such cases. Oncenawhile (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

How about "After the collapse of the talks and a controversial visit by Likud leader Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount, the Second Intifada began which, according to the views of a federal jury, was pre-planned by Yasser Arafat." ? GregKaye 11:39, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Greg, thanks for your proposal - it's helpful progress. My concern is that I don't think that the court / jury did actually decide that they "pre-planned it". They did find "responsibility" for certain acts of violence, but that is very different from pre-planning the entire Intifada. Oncenawhile (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Why include what a court has said in this case? It is not like they settled the thing. That rather belongs to the Wikipedia article about the court case. The view that the Palestinians planned it is heavily disputed and to base it on what that court said when we have for example scholars that have discussed it at length is weird. --IRISZOOM (talk) 17:10, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Because the court case saw the most in-debth examination of the evidence linking Yasser Arafat to the planning of the Intifada. It proved that terrorism was an official PA policy rather than spontaneous. It was a landmark ruling and its verdict is very pertinent. However you are right that it's disputed. Any suggesting on a rewording? "which many accuse Yasser Arafat of deliberately planning due to the collapse of peace talks"? It's vague but still. --Monochrome_Monitor 17:55, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Monochrome the reality is that, in life, many people, even members of jury's, can be biased. I had a tenant once who was a part of a particular Christian denomination who said something like, "the Palestinians should go away". I didn't know what to say. People can have predispositions. GregKaye 06:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
From reading this, are we now agreed that the court did NOT conclude that the PLO / Arafat pre-planned the intifada? Oncenawhile (talk) 18:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
It didn't conclude that the intifada was pre-planned, or it made no statement on that, but it found previously undisclosed financial transactions that are highly suggestive of Fatah planning the actual Intifada (not just attacks prior to its beginning). The prosecutors argued that it was pre-planned by this evidence but the court didn't rule on it specifically, they only focused on whether specific attacks were pre-planned. I read a PDF of some of the evidence presented but I can't remember where. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Right. So please undo your edit. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:13, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment It is not immediately clear to me why a court in the US is relevant to this article and the conflict. Suppose that a court in Iran ruled on this conflict, or a court in Bolivia, or a court in India, or a court in Turkey? Would we insert that? The rulings of an international court would be relevant, and I'm not saying the ruling of a national court could not be, but a case to explain why it would be relevant is missing.Jeppiz (talk) 20:22, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Palestinian lives matter (separated from thread above to avoid confusion)[edit]

In the edits mentioned above, Monochrome Monitor also added the sentence "By this time, more than 1,100 Israelis had been killed, mostly in suicide bombings." There were also significant numbers of Palestinians killed during this period (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Fatalities_1948.E2.80.932011 ). Solely listing Israeli casualties in not a NPOV. Palestinian lives matter as well. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 00:22, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Of coarse they matter. However in context the article is about Israel, and why the barrier was contructed. They barrier was constructed to prevent suicide bombings. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:39, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Gouncbeatduke, a formulation like the one cited is not really appropriate. It kind of brings to mind that newspaper from the 19th century that described in detail the tragic death of two persons in a fire on a boat, talking about both victims, who they were, and mourning their tragic loss, before finishing with a short sentence saying '30 blacks also died in the fire'. That is most definitely not what we what, I don't think it's anyone's intention, but the way this sentence is formed brings that example to mind.Jeppiz (talk) 20:17, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Each of the articles Israeli casualties of war, Palestinian casualties of war refer to the casualties of one side only. So it seems reasonable that the Israel article may include casualties of one side only as well. Ykantor (talk) 20:55, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
No, I don't see how that is reasonable at all. Could you explain what the advantage of specifying just Israeli casualties would be, compared to specifying both Israeli and Palestinian casualties.Jeppiz (talk) 21:05, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Because we aren't summarizing the second intifada. We are explaining why the West Bank Wall was built. --Monochrome_Monitor 22:25, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Still not an argument. Giving the actual number of Palestinian casualties would take up less space than saying There were also significant numbers of Palestinians killed during this period .Jeppiz (talk) 22:35, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
We aren't summarizing the Second Intifada. We are explaining the context behind the building of the wall. Again, this is an article about Israel. --Monochrome_Monitor 23:13, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm quite aware the article is about Israel. And those casualties came from conflict with which country's army? If they are casualties from clashes with the Australian, Bolivian or Canadian army, I agree they are not relevant here. If they are casualties from clashes with the Israeli army, they are relevant. Again, this is an article about Israel.Jeppiz (talk) 23:20, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
Israeli casualties aren't mentioned for any other reason than they explain the context of the barrier. --Monochrome_Monitor 23:26, 11 May 2015 (UTC) It's just inappropriate in this context. 23:28, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
It's like adding to the article on the Bombing of Pearl Harbor that "100,000 Japanese were killed in the firebombing of Tokyo". --Monochrome_Monitor 23:29, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
The actual number isn't necessary to prove that. If we have a number for one side then we should have a number for both. By the way, if we're talking about rationale for the barrier, the article should mention that the barrier's crossing of the green line is not considered to be driven by the same rationale. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:32, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm fine adding something about the controversial nature of the barrier crossing the green line, since it's relevant to the barrier. --Monochrome_Monitor 23:46, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
It is also disputable whether or not the reason the barrier exists is because of Palestinian terrorism. See for instance this B'tselem report. In this regard, it is clearly biased towards the Israeli narrative. However, I would have to agree with Monochrome that it is not necessary to include the Palestinian casualties. Within this context, that would be superfluous, since we are discussing Israel's supposed motives in building the wall, not the actual second intifada. JDiala (talk) 00:27, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't think wikipedia should be a platform for the conspiracy that the wall was built to divide Arabs and Jews. --Monochrome_Monitor 00:42, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
That is not a conspiracy. That is, to a large extent, fact. If the only reason the wall was built was to prevent terrorism, why wasn't it built on the green line? JDiala (talk) 18:58, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- The conspiracy claim is amazing. In fact, the main stream Israelis demanded to establish a barrier because naturally they wanted more personal security, while the powerful rightist Israelis opposed and still opposing the barrier.
- In Israel, the ruling coalition is frequently acting against the main stream Israelis wishes, in similarity to a lot of other democracies, but the situation in Israel is a bit worst. e.g. the latest Nethanyahu coalition agreements. We suffered more terrorist attacks with lot of killed civilians because the rightist lobby was so powerful, delayed the establishing the barrier, and stopped the barrier project before it was finished.
- I guess that the barrier was built behind the "green line" because when those rightist realized that the popular demand for the barrier couldn't be opposed any more, they took advantage on this operation and shifted the barrier inside the west bank, in order to annex more land. This is a short sighted step, since moving the barrier back to the "green line" is just a matter of money. Ykantor (talk) 20:23, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
No, the section is not about explaining why Israel built the barrier. That's not the case. Look at this:
After the collapse of the talks and a controversial visit by Likud leader Ariel Sharon to the Temple Mount, the Second Intifada began. Some commentators contend that the uprising was pre-planned by Yasser Arafat due to the collapse of peace talks.[212][213][214][215][216][217] Sharon became prime minister in a 2001 special election. During his tenure, Sharon carried out his plan to unilaterally withdraw from the Gaza Strip and also spearheaded the construction of the Israeli West Bank barrier,[218] ending the Intifada. [219][220][221][222][223][224][225][226][227][228][229][230] By this time, more than 1,100 Israelis had been killed, mostly in suicide bombings.
So the paragraph is about the conflict during those years. Of course Palestinian casualties should be mentioned. Otherwise readers just see that "some think the Palestinians planned the Intifada, which led to death of over 1,100 Israelis".
There is a reason critics call it an "apartheid wall" or "annexation wall". That is another POV problem if this is not included.
Furthermore, we can't just add that "some commentators" have said that the Palestinians planned the Second Intifada. The opposite view should be mentioned too. --IRISZOOM (talk) 03:56, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
The comparison with Attack on Pearl Harbor is not good. If an article talks about that attack generally, yes, the Japanese casualties in that attack is relevant too. The situation here is not that what is suggested is to add how many Palestinians were killed in for example Gaza 2008-09 but describing the same conflict, namely the Second Intifada. So when it talks generally about that conflict, as shown above, Palestinian casualties is relevant too. --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:18, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Reason for removing one sentence[edit]

I removed "The Jews almost single-handedly defended Haifa against the crusaders, holding out in the besieged town for a whole month (June–July 1099) in fierce battles." The immediate reason is that the sentence is lifted almost verbatim from a totally unreliable source (Katz, Battleground) who isn't even able to get the year correct (it was 1100). The reason I removed rather than resourced the sentence is that more serious historians do not accept this story. For example Prawer, History of the Jews in the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem says "There is nothing, however, to support the suggestion...that the Jews formed the garrison of the city" (p.37). See also Elena Bolomo, The First Crusade and the Latin east as seen from Venice: the account of the Translatio sancti Nicolai, Early Medieval Europe, Volume 17, Issue 4, pages 420–443, November 2009. The issue is too minor and technical for this page. Zerotalk 02:17, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Folks, once you know that there is a serious scholar who disputes something, WP:NPOV requires you to include that information. Also, this is the main article on Israel and I seriously don't believe a minor incident which gets zero or one sentences in the great majority of books on the history of this region deserves several extensive quotations. If all of the history was treated like that this article would grow to a gigabyte. We have plenty of specialist articles where such quotations would be welcome. I'd like to hear an argument to the contrary. Zerotalk 14:15, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
I agree, which is why I just tagged the sentences for undue weight. This is a single battle in the history of the Land of Israel, and it belongs in an article about Palestine and the Crusades, not here. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 14:26, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
I agree too. —  Cliftonian (talk)  21:48, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Lead[edit]

The lead mentions the disputed status of Jerusalem which I don't think should be in the first paragraph. It should be about Israel and not its capital's status, saying Israel claims Jerusalem as its capital while internationally Tel Aviv is seen as it or some variation of this should be better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jewnited (talkcontribs) 19:54, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Jewnited how do you propose to have an article about a Jewish State (that has been called Israel) without addressing the question regarding the extent of that state? Have you read the previous indepth discussions on this issue? GregKaye 05:19, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Judea and Samaria Area[edit]

Hi!

I do not speak English...

It can not be removed Judea and Samaria Area From the territory of the State of Israel! Judea and Samaria Area They are an integral part Of the State of Israel! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yair9a (talkcontribs) 05:44, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

@Yair9a: Israel government never officially claimed that the Judea and Samaria area (a.k.a the West Bank) is a part of Israel. The only part of the area which was (arguably) officially annexed is East Jerusalem, and it is reflected in the article. WarKosign 06:16, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
It's not an excuse ...
Currently the State of Israel controls there, so this area belongs to Israel right now. Not Palestine, not Jordan, not America, nor any other country. Only Israel. Therefore, to change the maps and texts on the Judea and Samaria will be inside Israel.213.151.40.2 (talk) 07:28, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia is built on reliable sources. If you have sources saying that that area is currently a part of Israel, it can be stated in the article. Sources do say that this area is under Israeli military control or occupation, and this is what the article says. There is no doubt that some people (apparently including you) believe that it should be part of Israel, but here we describe what is and not what should be. WarKosign 11:02, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
What is it that defines a certain area as part of the state? The implementation of state laws in these areas. No?Yair9a (talk) 15:39, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
@Yair9a: What you are doing is original research, which can't be used on wikipedia. Even if it could be used, you are incorrect - Most of Israeli laws are not applied in the West bank, except inside Israeli settlements. For example, consider taxation, education, criminal law, etc. Logically, Israeli law cannot apply to people who are not citizens (and not even permanent residents), and don't have a right to vote and elect the people settings these laws. The military control does apply restrictions and rules on Palestinians, but these deal only with security considerations. WarKosign 16:51, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
What are you talking about? ! All of Area C in Judea and Samaria apply Israeli law! Only in Areas A and B, there is a Palestinian government! In Judea and Samaria there are schools of the Israeli government, the police have the Israeli government has traffic laws by the Israeli government, there is the Israeli government's taxes, and more ... Yair9a (talk) 10:40, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
No state think the West Bank is a part of Israel. --IRISZOOM (talk) 15:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
What's the connection?Yair9a (talk) 16:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
I see a clear connection. How can we change it to that the West Bank is in Israel when actually not a single state think that? --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:41, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
If you have a child class that everyone beat him, and they all think it is necessary to beat him, it means we have to beat him ?! No! The question here is what reality is telling us, rather than what the world thinks! Yair9a (talk) 18:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
This being Wikipedia, 'the question' is actually how to neutrally represent what sources say, not what 'reality' is.     ←   ZScarpia   09:25, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
You hear what your mouth is saying? Is the copy, accurate than the original?!Yair9a (talk) 18:29, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
@Yair9a: you may want to read Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. If your opinion is correct, surely there are lots of reliable sources that agree with you, please point towards them. WarKosign 20:42, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
What is considered credible sources?Yair9a (talk) 05:47, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sourcesWarKosign 07:33, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Infobox: Independence.[edit]

One of the infoboxes states that Israel became independent from 'the British Mandate of Palestine' (meaning Mandatory Palestine). That is factually questionable. Strictly speaking, what Ben-Gurion declared on 14 May 1948 was the creation of the state of Israel, to take place at midnight when Mandatory Palestine officially ceased to exist. Popularly, the Declaration of the Creation of Israel is referred to as Israel's 'Declaration of Independence' and the war which started on 15 May 1948 as the 'War of Independence', which often causes people to ask what Israel became independent from. Whatever the answer is, it was not really Mandatory Palestine, which had ceased to exist just before Israel came into existence and the 'War of Independence' started. The infobox title can read 'Independence' rather than 'Creation' if editors like, but if it remains the former, it shouldn't state as a fact that Israel became independent from Mandatory Palestine.     ←   ZScarpia   09:50, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I see the word "independence" in the infobox, and agree that "establishment" (or "creation", although I like it less) would be more correct.
I think that the change you made (removal of reference to independence from the British Mandate of Palestine) is correct. I would like to keep some mention of the fact that the modern State of Israel replaced the mandate as the sovereign over the territory. I see that typically the Formation section of state infoboxes listed the major powers that used to control the territory (using the sovereignty_type ,established_event, established_date fields of template:Infobox country template). WarKosign 15:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
That, or anything suggesting the idea of (partial) succession, sounds good.     ←   ZScarpia   21:29, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
The only thing I will argue with is that what you call the "Declaration of the Creation of Israel" is actually the "Declaration of Independence." In Hebrew, it is called מגילת העצמאות or הכרזת העצמאות‎, which translates directly to Charter/Declaration of Independence (where עצמאות translates directly to independence). There was no "Declaration of the Creation of Israel," but a Declaration of Independence. They aren't referring to independence from a specific nation, but establishing a nation of independence of government from all others - having their own, independent Jewish State. Goalie1998 (talk) 16:04, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Actually, Goalie, you are mistaken. The official name of the document is the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel (ההכרזה על הקמת מדינת ישראל).[12] The term מגילת העצמאות (Scroll of Independence) refers to the physical scroll bearing the words, not to the text of the declaration.RolandR (talk) 11:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Jerusalem as Israel Contested Capital City[edit]

May I suggest that the English version of this article is modified to reflect the French version of the same article, which seems to be much more informative and precise with respect to the contested nature of Jerusalem as the Capital City of Israel. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.180.100 (talk) 15:02, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Could you please describe what exactly is more informative and precise in the French version, for those not fluent in the language ? WarKosign 15:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
le sens de la langue - dedudelaisrajelito? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.196.227 (talk) 07:16, 31 May 2015 (UTC)