Talk:Israeli cuisine

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Good article Israeli cuisine has been listed as one of the Agriculture, food and drink good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
February 15, 2010 Good article nominee Listed
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Israeli cuisine ?[edit]

I just saw the article name. What about changing the name to Israeli cuisine ? It fits the naming general patern of X cuisine article (mediteranean cuisine etc.) -- Esurnir 21:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Fried fish, served baked[edit]

According to this article, "in Israeli fish restaurants, fried fish is served, baked or fried."

Are we sure about this?

Any contribution from the Russian immigration?[edit]

I noticed that there is no mention of cuisine which came with the significant immigration of new Israelis from the old Soviet Union. Has any food/drink been integrated into mainstream Israeli cuisine? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MJKazin (talkcontribs) 11:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

- There is, but very little: As a start, this is not the first immigration wave from Russia. First, second, and third immigration waves included Russian Jews, sometimes Russian Jews were the majority of immigrants. Also, many came in the great immigration wave in the 50's, and there was also another immigration wave in the 70's. So all culinar contributions to general Israeli cuisin had been done already. The contribution that does exist, is the fact that many immigrants opened shops that special in Russian delicacies - that they couldn't buy elsewhere: caviar, certain cheeses, not-Kosher meat etc. A cheese that became popular in israel - due to these shops or due to other reasons, is Tovrog. 79.177.126.201 (talk) 07:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)noa

Needs Rewriting[edit]

The writing on this page is appalling and there are no references. This is an important article, and needs a lot of serious work.--Gilabrand (talk) 07:56, 11 December 2007 (UTC) So go on then. Knock yourself out and let us have your non-appalling version: due importance, serious work, the lot. Plutonium27 (talk) 19:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I Second Gilabrand. I am going to remove the entire first section and place it here. Somebody can feel free to re-write it and put it back in the article if they so please, however the article will stand perfectly well alone without it. Rudy Breteler (talk) 17:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

removed section[edit]

Defining Israel's cuisine Like many nations built up of immigrants from around the world, there is a large debate over whether an Israeli cuisine actually exists at all. Many believe that because Israel is a new state which does not have a long tradition of cooking. Because many of the dishes which are currently considered Israeli originate from Arab cuisine, and the cuisines from the countries from which the Jews immigrated to Israel, to some Israeli cuisine is just a fusion of styles from around the world, with no apparent unique aspect.

In contrast, many do assert that Israel does have its own cuisine. They argue that many cuisines influence each other and "borrow" dishes from others. This can be seen across the Asian cuisines for example, whilst what some countries asster to be their national foods, actually originate in other countries, for example the hamburger, the sausages, the pizza and the French fries as the cuisine of the United States which actually originate in Germany, Italy and Belgium. Many dishes in Israel cannot be found in other countries, however, most notably, when there are mixtures of combinations of elements of the Middle Eastern and European cuisines such as goulash and couscous.

Whether or not Israel does have its own cuisine the two main currents in the food which could be seen as Israeli Cuisine, are the foods originating from the Israeli-Mizrahi culture and the traditional Israeli cuisine.

Rudy Breteler (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

that section is important. I restored it. --Acidburn24m (talk) 14:58, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Also the point must be made that there has been a continuous Jewish presence in former Palestine, for 2,000 years. The Palestinian Jewish cuisine from a historical perspective should be further explored No work appears to have been done on this subject.Irondome (talk) 05:25, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

"Israeli-Mizrahi cuisine"[edit]

This section should be renamed to "Food adopted from Arab countries" Because this food is not "Israeli-Mizrahi". It didn't belong exclusively to Middle eastern Jews. It belonged to the people of them nations they came from. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

It does not belong exclusively to Arabs as well, since it also blonges to the Jews who set in these countries, in many cases long before these areas became Arabic. Besides, Ashkenazi Jews also adopted foods along their way, and these foods are considered "Jewish", though non-Jewish at them as well. Vermicelli entered Jewish cooking in Italy, and they took it with them to Germany and Eastern Europe. Borsht is considered Jewish, though it is originaly Russian and Polish. By the way, hamburger is considered an American food, though its is also German and Germany is the origin. 79.177.126.201 (talk) 07:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)noa
Though there must certainly be some foods that are specifically Mizrahi, I agree with S.D. that much Israeli cuisine was adopted from the local Levantine foods. In fact, we have some Reliable Sources to that effect, both of them Israelis: see Janna Gur in the hummus article and Yael Raviv in the falafel article. --macrakis (talk) 02:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
In almost all places the Jewish version of adopted dishes is meaningfully different due to various reasons:
  • religious dietary requirements preventing some materials or a combination of some. For example, no Arab cuisine includes limitations on Meat and Dairy dishes. The requirement to abstain from dairy products for 6 hours after a meat meal also meant that dishes traditionally prepared with dairy products were changed to rely on non-dairy fat and protein.
  • cultural and sociological standing within the host country lead to changing of some ingredients to others - either due to popularity in other Jewish groups or due to high cost / low availability etc.
As such, there are many dishes as well as dish version which are unique to Jews - Mizrahi or Ashkenazi - despite owing their source to local cultures.

79.178.182.62 (talk) 17:21, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Arab food in Israeli cuisine[edit]

A separate section for this topic is unnecessary, and this particular section is so deeply flawed that it warrants removal:

  • In general, the premise that types of food are “stolen” by one group or another is intellectually flawed at best, political propaganda at worst. As any serious student of culinary arts and history knows, there is a constant flow of food styles and dishes between cultures and peoples for many reasons, including migration, trade and conquest. There are many examples, contemporary and historical, where one culinary culture has espoused and adapted elements of another, and in none does it seem to have been labeled as “theft”, except in this case for reasons that appear to have nothing to do with cuisine.
  • The article already addresses Arab food in Israeli cuisine in appropriate places:
    • The presence of foods of Middle Eastern origin is stated in the introduction section of the article (and I think this could be changed to state more clearly, “Arab, Turkish and Persian”).
    • The influence of Jews from Arab countries, bringing with and transferring dishes from their Arab countries of origin is noted in the History section.
    • The Arab origin or influence is noted throughout the article with regard to the relevant dish such as hummus, labneh, mujadara and the diced tomato and cucumber salad.
  • The information provided in this section does not address the topic of Arab food in Israeli cuisine. Instead it is
    • a collection of quotes of undue weight
    • comprising only of blatantly POV statements
    • promoting a clearly political agenda SOAP

This may or may not have merit as a political topic regarding the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, if written in a NPOV manner; that has not been achieved here and is also addressed elsewhere; see Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Israeli_theft_of_Arab_cuisine
Chefallen (talk) 02:57, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

In that case the article Palestinian Cuisine is far more guilty of the charges you weigh here. Do you intend to address those issues too, or is this political? Irondome (talk) 05:28, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

i added Syro-palestinian[edit]

in the intro it says consisting of local dishes and ...etc i added Syro-palestinian to clarify what local dishes are we talking about here... i thought it looks vague without clareification anyone here objects —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.162.149.231 (talk) 10:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Hubeza leaves[edit]

The relevance of hubeza leaves to the cuisine needs to be better established. Are they commonly used in Israeli cuisine today? Did their use during the siege of Jerusalem result in some dish now commonly eaten, like the eggplant substitute for meat resulted in mock chopped liver?

And in any case, the sentence about the radio station may be an interesting historical fact relevant in an article about the siege, but is of no significance here in a discussion about cuisine. --Chefallen (talk) 17:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe the source establishes the relevance. It was practically the ONLY fresh food at that time. People were on the verge of starving. They used hubeza to make salads and a kind of vegetable pattie. Nowadays, hubeza is trendy again. You can find chefs using it in fancy restaurants. Kids still eat it, by the way. They pluck the buds in the fields. I don't know why an article on cuisine cannot have a relevant historical anecdote attached to it. It is no less important than the fact that eggplant was used in many different ways. --Gilabrand (talk) 17:47, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
I am not opposed to adding back the part about it being used as source of food during the war as that is borne out by the source. I still don’t see the relevance of the last sentence (about the radio station, etc.,) to this article though.
As far as current notability goes, I assume you are correct (from your comment you appear to be in Israel and to have observed its use) but the last paragraph of the cited article seems to indicates that hubeza is not a currently notable component of this cuisine, the opposite, in fact:
“Ahead of the state's 30th independence celebrations, in an operation intended to recall and honor the leaves that helped Jerusalemites hold on during the siege, children were sent to pick mallow leaves. The leaves were frozen by Sunfrost, sold at a symbolic price and distributed together with recipes from the period of the siege. Another 30 years have passed since then, and this is perhaps a good opportunity to recall the mallow growing right under our noses and put it back on the table.”
So I think we need a better source to establish its current significance so it can be mentioned as having continued relevance. --Chefallen (talk) 20:47, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Here's another article from 1996 proposing hubeiza as an "Independence Day" food. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P1-2279989.html

As I said, it is back in vogue nowadays, not only out of nostalgia, but because of the health food craze. I will look for more sources when I get a chance. I have to work sometimes...--Gilabrand (talk) 21:11, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

AFAIK, Hubeza is mainly used today in Israel by the Negev Bedouins, and by boy scouts in field trips as a way of learning survival by self reliance.--HuBeZa (talk) 16:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Fruit[edit]

I think the facts about Israel being one of the world's leading fresh citrus producers and exporters and the leading producer of loquat after Japan are more appropriate to the Agriculture in Israel and/or the Economy of Israel articles. We should still mention these fruits as being eaten is Israel though, I'm not suggesting deleting, just rewording, so that it focuses on the food aspect, rather than the agricultural/economic aspect. -- Chefallen (talk) 23:03, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

These facts deserve mention on the agriculture and economy pages, but I don't think it's a reason to delete them here. If Israel is a leading producer of these fruits, it reflects on the cuisine. I would add more information, if sources can be found, about shesek having a very short season, being associated with Pesah (it is called shesek pri hapesah) and used to be very popular with kids because they played games with the pits (aju'im or gogo'im). At this point, the article needs more information, not less.--Gilabrand (talk) 05:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
It seems that the issue is how you define a cuisine article. Do you just write "Israelis eat x,y,z," or you add information about why they eat x,y,z and the history & customs associated with it (as in the holiday cuisine sections). Since the Israeli kitchen is quite "new" as a cuisine, and there are those who don't even see it as a cuisine, I believe the addition of such information explains its distinctiveness, and is thus important. As this article gets thousands of hits, the material should add something to the readers' knowledge, not just be a listing of foods--Gilabrand (talk) 06:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
I would agree with Gilabrand, the material presented should add to the readers knowledge and help educate them -- that is what an encyclopedia does, afterall :-) --nsaum75¡שיחת! 06:49, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
I see your point. I notice I even added similar information in the dairy products sections :-) We probably just need to integrate the information more smoothly with some more details, along the lines of Gilabrand's suggestion above, so that it doesn't become the main point of this section. -- Chefallen (talk) 20:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Dear Gilabrand, as an Israeli, I never heard the phrase 'pri hapesah'. I Google the exact phrase both in Hebrew & English and didn't found a single result. Second, the well known game gogo'im uses Apricot kernel (Mish'Mesh in Hebrew), not loquat (She'sek) kernel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HuBeZa (talkcontribs) 16:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

this article implies[edit]

that an area that is not in Israel, is in Israel: the full sentence: "There are various climatic areas in Israel that allow a variety of products to be grown. Citrus trees such as orange, lemon and grapefruit thrive on the coastal plain. Figs, pomegranates and olives also grow in the cooler hill areas.[1] The subtropical climate near the Sea of Galilee and in the Jordan River Valley is suitable for mangoes, kiwis and bananas, while the temperate climate of the mountains of the Galilee and the Golan is suitable for grapes, apples and cherries." I have therefore made it clear that the area is not a part of Israel: [1] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I added this link so people can see what "areas it has settled" is.[2] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:01, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Arab cuisine in Israeli food[edit]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3850942,00.html "Israeli food is also based on the Arab cuisine." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I have added this source into the article: [3] It is widely known that hummus, falafel, zaatar, mezze etc are Arab foods, and the info is sourced so please do not remove it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

The zionism-is-racism criticism of Israel does not belong in the first paragraph or anywhere in this article. But since this is wiki and if someone on earth says it (esp. against israel) then it warrants inclusion, at least put this drivvel in a 'criticism' section at the bottom. 95.86.77.244 (talk) 22:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC) bennyp
I don't see it there, or recall seeing it. Are you sure it isn't long gone? Hertz1888 (talk) 23:12, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Supreme Deliciousness, "massive adoption" is your definition. The similarities between dishes are already mentioned in middle eastern and Levantine cuisines. your edit is redundant, there are also adoption of other cuisines, still there're not mentioned in the lead. An opinion of a chef on ynet is insufficient. You were reverted then and you are reverted now, unless you get a consensus you will be reverted. Reports won't help. Infantom (talk) 12:04, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
If we take a look at the images in the article the first one at the top has Hummus, Falafel and "Israeli salad". "Israeli salad" is actually an Arab salad with a false name. And Hummus and Falafel are also Arab foods adopted by Israel. They are also considered national dishes by Israel. Throughout the article we can also read about other Arab dishes. There is probably more Arab dishes in this article then of any other cuisine. So based on this, "massive" is correct and it certainly belongs in the lead of the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:10, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Hummus, Falafel and the rest are not exclusively Arab dishes but Middle eastern shared by a variety of people and ethnicities. That's already mentioned in the lead alongside with Levantine and Mediterranean cuisines, so your edit is redundant. Stop reverting without WP:CON and achieve this by discussion first. Infantom (talk) 23:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
You are the one that added the content and was reverted, then you are the one that need to get consensus for this (since 2010). This is achieved by discussion. Please read WP:CONACHIEVE, ignoring this method is unhelpful. Infantom (talk) 12:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Infantom, you have not provided a valid reason for its removal. Just because Levantine and Middle Eastern is mentioned doesn't mean we cant also mention Arab. The lead also says Mizrahi cuisine but that is also covered by Middle Eastern and Levantine, so why didn't you remove it? The lead also says "Jewish cuisine", and that covers Mizrahi, Ashkenazi and Sephardi cuisine, so why don't you also remove them? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:36, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
The "Jewish cuisines" are far more relevant. They constitute the basis of the Israeli cuisine and are a direct and prominent influence on it, mentioning them is more important. Plus, There is a consensus for mentioning them at least since 2010, unlike your edit. Arab cuisine(in the sense of dishes associated exclusively with it) isn't more influential than Turkish, Balkan and even eastern/central European for that matter, it hasn't any unique value over other cuisines and we can't mention everything in a summarized section. Levantine cuisine is also redundant in my opinion, we can remove it if you wish. Infantom (talk) 17:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Not really, there are more Arab food dishes in this article than, "Mizrahi", "sephardi" or "ashkenazi". Arab cuisine constitute more of a basis in Israeli cuisine and more of a direct and prominent influence on it then any of these three branches. I don't believe in your so called "consensus since 2010" this article was largely edited by a certain group of pov editors with an agenda for example (User:Gilabrand) and they want to hide truths and suppress information they don't like. The fact of the matter is this: we have a RS that specifically says that Israeli cuisine is based on the Arab cuisine. So it belongs here. If you have a source saying Israeli cuisine is based on balkan or turkish cuisines you can also ad it if you want. But you have no right to remove this sourced information from the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
That's a problem, you consider Middle eastern food to be necessarily Arab food, and that's wrong. Not all dishes in middle east are attributed exclusively with Arab cuisine but also with others, and that's including the similarities of Israeli and Arab cuisines that are mentioned in the article. Therefore the impact of Arab cuisine on the Israeli is not more significant than others. To say that Israeli cuisine is based and influenced more by Arab cuisine than Jewish is nonsense, but more important it's WP:OR. I don't understand what "my so called consensus" you're referring to, you have tried to put the same content with same source since 2010, and it was denied, that's a fact. This is obviously a controversial issue. As for the source, bold text won't make your claims right, this source is completely insufficient(which BTW says "also based") and i do have a right to remove controversial content with no consensus and discuss it, which is also not in the right place. Now, considering that the current lead covers everything, i can't really see your case here aside from wp:promotion. Infantom (talk) 20:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Climatic areas in occupied territories[edit]

There is a line in the "Characteristics" section: "There are various climatic areas in Israel and areas it has settled that allow a variety of products to be grown.", this line should be "and areas it is occupying", the reason for this is that the "areas it has settled" as the line is about is about the occupied territories, and that (occupied territories) is the worldview terminology and view of the area, this is not politics. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:37, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually there's an argument that "settled" is more accurate. The occupied territories include places where Israelis have not settled and the climate of these is totally irrelevant to this article as the cuisine is only produced where theya re settled.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:37, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Origin[edit]

No More Mr Nice Guy, the BBC source says: "this salad that we call an Israeli Salad, actually it’s an Arab salad, Palestinian salad. So, we sort of robbed them of everything."

The Empire & terror: nationalism/postnationalism in the new millennium source says: "This, however, never stopped Zionism from appropriating the fruit of the land that Palestine's peasants produced. It is in this vein that Zionism appropriated Palestinian and Pan-Syrian food like hummus, dalafil, tabbulah, maftul (increasingly known in the United States and Europe as "Israeli couscous"), and finely diced Palestinian rural salad (now known in New York delis as Israeli salad)"

Is the dishes real original name "Israeli salad"? The sources show its a Palestinians salad that has been "appropriated" and is "now known in" (renamed).

Also the 1,001 Foods to Die For source says: "Hailing from the mountains between Lebanon and Syria", furthermore, "MIDDLE EASTERN KITCHEN" p 81 By Ghillie Basan says [4]: "Traditionally a peasant salad from Syria", so how does these sources not say its Syrian and Lebanese? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Neither source says or even implies that someone "renamed" the salad. Renaming requires an active action by someone. Things' names change naturally without someone "renaming" them. As for the origins of Tabbouleh, "hailing from the mountains between Lebanon and Syria" != "The Syrian and Lebanese dish". You can say it's originally from the mountains between Lebanon and Syria if you like, though. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:05, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Mizrahi Cuisine[edit]

Hello everybody. I'm a bit confused, the article's definition of “Mizrahi Jews” is “Jews from North Africa, particularly Morocco”, and of “Mizrahi cuisine” as “the cuisine of Jews from North Africa” as opposed to that of “Jews from Turkey, Iraq, Kurdistan and Yemen”. But, according to Wikipedia, “Mizrahi Jews or Mizrahiyim ... are Jews descended from the Jewish communities of the Middle East, North Africa and the Caucasus... This includes Jews from Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Egypt, Iran/Persia, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Kurdish areas, the eastern Caucasus, India, Northern and Eastern Sudan, as well as Ethiopia, and within and nearby Israel. Sometimes, Sephardi Jews such as Jews from Morocco, Algeria, or Turkey are erroneously grouped into the Mizrahi category for some historical reasons.” So, which is it?
And while I'm at it, what other “styles of cooking” are there in Israel besides “the Mizrahi, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi styles”, and, of course the Palestinian-Arab style not mentioned in the lead or anywhere else in the article, as far as I can see, presumably because it is not Israeli enough for a featured article? Ajnem (talk) 17:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Israeli cuisine[edit]

This article is about Israeli cuisine, namely what is regularilly eaten by most of the population of the State of Israel. Even though some 18% of Israeli population is Arab, this doesn't change the meaning of what is normally accepted to be "Israeli cuisine", just as antisemitism in it's accepted meaning is practiced only against Jews, a rather small group of Semitic peoples. Some of the Israeli Arabs share "Israeli cuisine" to some extent, just as some Jews eat Humus and such on a daily basis. There is an article about Palestinian cuisine, where there is a section about, among other regions, the Galilee specialties, and it is OK, though the Galilee could have been a part of this article instead. Ori (talk) 12:25, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Kosher food[edit]

If one preserves a kosher cuisine, this refers to anything that is brought into one's home or establishment. "Kosher" doesn't refer to a certain dish nor does it depend on location. One can have one's kitchen Kosher in Jerico (if one really insists on it) and have a Treif kitchen in a Jewish orthodox neighborhood in Bnei Brak Ori (talk) 12:25, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Israel (Jewish) cuisine?[edit]

Why doesn't this article mention Arab dishes of Israel, only Jewish dishes and holidays? Outside mentioning Arab influence, I'm talking about the cuisine of Israeli Arabs. No mention of Islamic holidays and traditions? PacificWarrior101 (talk) 01:18, 12 October 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Ansky1 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).