|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Italian Fascism article.|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 Improvements?
- 2 Mergefrom National Fascist Party
- 3 Contradiction?
- 4 Historical inaccuracy
- 5 Merger?
- 6 A Fascist Calendar?
- 7 Misleading
- 8 Redundant Statement in the Lead
- 9 Me ne frego
- 10 Why is truth about Italian war crimes not presented here?
- 11 Fair use rationale for Image:La difesa della razza.jpg
- 12 Why does this entry exist?
- 13 We're baaaack!
- 14 Infobox Former Country
- 15 Was Fiume promised in the Treaty of London
- 16 Strange picture of Italian fascism
- 17 Gentile's "Moral Force as a Truncheon"
- 18 Post-1945 fascism
- 19 Something Missing
- 20 Blatantly flawed article, no information about crimes at all
- 21 Orphaned references in Italian Fascism
- 22 Why Present Tense?
- 23 Recent edits re "modernity" etc
Most of the External Links are to marginal libertarian analysts. This section should be expanded.--Cberlet 21:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
The article seems to suggest that Italy's anti-semitic laws brought it closer to Nazi Germany. The laws were introduced largely at Hitler's insistance and were never particularly popular or as strictly enforced as in Germany.
Chris holte (talk) Chris: however, there is plenty of evidence that Mussolini and his lieutenants, at least for a time, fell under Hitler's spell, his Jewish mistress notwithstanding. The Italians don't fit very well with Aryan theories, but Anti-Semitism was especially popular as an excuse for economic dysfunction and for expropriating property from wealthy (or not so wealthy) Jews.
Mergefrom National Fascist Party
I don't think that the smaller article should be outright merged into this one, but we're in serious danger of unnecessary and possibly confusing forking here. I think we should discuss which information goes in this article, and which in that.
In general, I think information about Italian fascist movements in general should go here -- which means another mergefrom Fascio -- and information on the party itself should go in National Fascist Party, which could probably also use some of the text now in Benito Mussolini. Then, of course, there's the question of Italian government during the Fascist period; History_of_Italy_as_a_monarchy_and_in_the_World_Wars says that that should go here, but there's also The Italian Economy under Fascism, 1922-1939 to consider (and clean up)...
Chris holte (talk) I agree, I think we can make this page coherent by putting it on a timeline, linking the biographical and ideological materials to other pages, and a little editing. It looks better than it did last time I looked at it already.
I think we can add to the list of failures of fascism the difficulty of writing encyclopedia entries about it when government, state, party, and Duce are all wrapped up together like this. ;)
Chris holte (talk) That is not a failure, that is one of it's strengths. Fascists are masters at hiding their real intentions and justifying sheer brutality and greed. We also need to upgrade the Sorel page and some other ones because the ideology of Fascism is marketing.
--Stlemur 09:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
- As is, the article for the party is not redundant to this article. I think the solution is simple and widely available on wikipedia: Under the Rise to power subheader, write See also or Main article (in the form:
- Main article: National Fascist Party
- On the PNF page, perhaps write a
==See also== *[[Italian fascism]]
- I really think this is the way to prevent repetitions and forks.Dahn 16:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
- In fact, I think relevant info should be moved on the PNF page rather than stick with other articles. This article could summarize the trends that led to the creation of the party and review major events, but bulk info should feature there. Dahn 16:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
"However, it is incorrect that he publicly took responsibility." This is what it says on the page about Matteotti.
Yet here it says "[..]he took upon himself all of the responsibility for the assassination of Matteoti and the other squadrist violence, proclaimed a de facto dictatorship[...]".
Is that the same as saying one is publicly responsible? I may be arguing semantics - or not understanding what it says correctly - but then it needs a rephrasing?
Anyone know enough about the subject to care to comment? 18.104.22.168 07:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
"Similar political movements, including Nazism, spread across Europe and Latin America between World War I and World War II" - Fascism occurred in many other areas beside Europe and Latin America. SolitaryWolf 12:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- In reply to Stlemur's change, unfortunately Japan cannot be considered strictly fascist - Kita Ikki advocated limits be imposed on personal wealth and private enterprise. This suggests a Marxist influence… I was actually referring to the Fascist movement around that time in the US... SolitaryWolf 01:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
- Nonetheless, having mentioned "...spread across the rest of the world" - its fine. SolitaryWolf 01:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Seems like a good idea.--Cberlet 01:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
A Fascist Calendar?
There is a carved inscription on the Mediterranean island Crete (Rhodes ?) that records the restoration of an ancient site by occupying Italians not on a conventional year but instead "in the nnth year of Fascism". Does anyone know whether Mussolini's fascist agenda included replacing the christian calendar years with a new system? If so, what was their year zero (1922 ?) and did they plan the handling of leap-days and leap-seconds for the long term? (cuddlyable3) 22.214.171.124 12:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Mussolini didn't replace the christian calendar, absolutly. Also the Roman Caesars and the Popes used to add, at the normal date, the year of his Kingdom.( you can see it over all the monuments in Rome -my city) So, for example 19-09-1942, XX EF(EF= era fascista). Naturally they begun to count since 1922 (20 ottobre - Marcia su Roma). Excuse me for my bad english... Alessio —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 126.96.36.199 (talk • contribs) 3 January 2007.
- Exactly. Just the years. The nationalists in Spain did the same during the Spanish Civil War, presumably copying Mussolini. I'm not sure when they stopped, but I don't think they kept it up much past the war itself. - Jmabel | Talk 18:01, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The article says that early Fascist movement aimed at: a democratic republic, separation of church and state, a national army,
If you say it like that then it sounds like these things didn't exist yet, which is obviously not the case (Italy was a democracy already, armed and in bad terms with the Pope). Shouldn't someone rephrase it? i don't want to do it myself because my English isnt good enough.Caballaria 22:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- Italy was a democracy, but not a republic. And they were, indeed, on poor terms with the papacy, but I'm pretty certain that Catholicism still had the status of a state religion. - Jmabel | Talk 23:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Redundant Statement in the Lead
"German Nazism, under Adolf Hitler, was inspired by Italian Fascism but only came to power ten years later in 1933, by which time Mussolini had been in power for a decade."
So Nazism came into power ten years after Mussolini, who had at this point been in power for ten years.
MJPerry 09:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Me ne frego
From the "Fascist mottos and sayings" section:
- Me ne frego, literally "I frig myself about it," closer in meaning to "I don't give a damn": the Italian Fascist motto
What is this word "frig"? To my knowledge it's only used in this kind of context as a euphamism for "fuck", which we shouldn't censor if it's informative. It's certainly not encyclopaedic style to use it here, IMO. Hairy Dude 15:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Why is truth about Italian war crimes not presented here?
Italian fascist occupation force did some horrific war crimes on the occupied parts of Yugoslavia. In some cases, whole villages were burnt to the ground, and its inhabitants were shot. There was also an Italian concentration camp on isle of Rab. People that have survived Italian fascist oppression have said that they were even more harsh then German occupying force. Yet, not one single word about it. Manny people of todays Italy believe that Fascist soldiers during WW2 were 'benevolent occupiers'. Well, that is a horrific lie. For starters, one should watch BBC documentary 'Fascist Legacy'. There is some info about the movie here on Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Legacy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Duby-B (talk • contribs) 19:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:La difesa della razza.jpg
Image:La difesa della razza.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
Why does this entry exist?
Most of this entry is uncited, and most of this entry replicates material on other pages. It would not be a simple merger, but shouldn't we take this page apart and move the material to other related pages and then look for cites? That way we might save what is valuable. Comments?--Cberlet (talk) 03:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. Salvageable content could be moved to articles related with history of Italy. -- Vision Thing -- 16:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- NO! Italian Fascism is "Italian Fascism". If you don't have sources for Italian Fascism, then find them! Every academic source lists Italian Fascism independently. The recent move was only accepted by THREE PEOPLE! That is outrageous to make a drastic decision without substantial support. Moreover "Italian Fascism" has more direct search links to its subject of Italian Fascism (133,000 links to Italian Fascism on Google) than "European fascist ideologies" (110 links to "European fascist ideologies" on Google). Italian Fascism is the foundation of fascism in general, it should and will have an independent article. I will revert the name change immediately to its previously long-standing title that is used by multiple sources for descriptions of the Fascist movement in Italy. Do not make such drastic changes again without gaining a large consensus of people to support it.--R-41 (talk) 23:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
- Some time after the cut and paste move, Cberlet made the following comment. Pasting below:
The excellent section on Italian Fascism by Gennarous on the main Fascism page has been plonked here with additional material from the older, mostly uncited, page. Let's go passionate advocates of this page--have at it! After a few days, I will see if others at Fascism want to reduce the size of the section on Italian Fascism.--Cberlet (talk) 13:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Infobox Former Country
- Agree, I urge whoever the user is to PLEASE STOP repeatedly placing the info box for a former country for the movement of Italian Fascism. That is a complete misuse of the former country infobox which reduces the quality of this article.--R-41 (talk) 02:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Was Fiume promised in the Treaty of London
No an expert on this, but am curious by the entries statement that Fiume was promised by the secret treaty of london in 1915. According to Edward Tannenbaum, in "The Fascist Experience" (Basic Books, 1972), this was not promised to Italy: "There was no rational basis for such a belief [i.e. that Italy deserved Fiume]; even the Treaty of London had no promised Fiume to Italy for her participation in the war"(24). Again, not an expert on this, but it does seem that this book may be more legitimate and/or more widely circulated than the one cited.
I've done some more research (I posted above), and it looks as though the wikipedia entry is incorrect. This is clear from Macmillan's book, Paris 1919: "If some nationalists wanted even more territory than Italy had been promised on the eastern side of the Adriatic, Fiume for example, then he [Orlando] would have to produce that as well. It was Orland who came up with the formula that excited the nationalists and so infuriated Italy's allies: 'the Treaty of London plus Fiume'"(281) Also, the wikipedia entry on the Treaty of London (1915) also notes that Fiume was not included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 02:29, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
- Fiume was not promised to Italy in the Treaty of London of 1915. The Austrian empire should have a big port on the Adriatic after the war. Instead almost half of Dalmatia, mostly inhabited by Slavs, was promised by the Treaty to Italy. When, on the base of Wilson doctrine Dalmatia, was given to Yougoslavia, Italian delegatation requested Fiume, mostly inhabited by Italians since the Austrian empire had disappeared.--Deguef (talk) 12:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Strange picture of Italian fascism
Article gives a strange picture of Italian fascism. Looks apologetic. What about development of fascism in 1930s and later?? I stumble especilly about claims on racial openness as shown in [and Empire building]. True in the beginning antisemitism was not a factor. How about shift to race laws in later 1930s? (Cf [] ) What about "ordinary racism" against Africans? (Not to be masked by mentioning colonial troops - everybody had those!). --Kipala (talk) 23:17, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
- Not necessarily, seeing as from within the nature of Italian "Fascism" it was adhered to as an ideology, so outside definitions of Fascism as we are all used to are all the way more slanted... and this is for the specific ideology of the Italian movement itself and not the general lowercase common day definition of "fascism". Other definitons by those who do not adhere to it as an ideology still must define it by its own tenets and those are not so mythically vile as the "Fascism" that became so vilified- even if it praised war and destruction; many such cathartic movements who held on to it, revolutionary leftism, are not held in such contempt. I think the article is quite balanced. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 07:54, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
This page is totally apologetic of Mussolini's regime. It omits *all* the horrors of *italian* fascism (propaganda, children brainwashing, physical removal of the opposition, rewriting of history, abolishment of the parliament and parties, abolition of trade unions, widespread violence by the black shirts, unhuman war crimes) and even goes further to suggest that Mussolini wasn't a racist after all (he sent italian citizens to be killed in gas chambers for being jews), that Mussolini was admired by democratic political leaders (the whole world minus Germany and Japan sacrified millions of lives just to end his regime), and that the Great Council of Fascism was a sign that Italy was still a democracy (it's like saying that the CPSU was a warrant for democracy in the Soviet Union, where by the way at least fake elections were held, italian fascists didn't bother even doing that). -- Peppepz (talk) 15:30, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
- Bias has no place on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 16:05, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
Giovanni Gentile once stated, via his view of Kantian ethics taken to a state level and carried out in a way from that as Plato's philosopher king rulership, that "the truncheon is a moral force" or something of the like. Which became interpreted maybe in a way that wasn't how he intended as he brought it up as being used wrongly even by his own kinsmen. Though the similarity to his, his own adoption of ideas from anarcho-syndicalism which inspired his view of state corporativism via the likes of Georges Sorel; could be related to Propaganda of the deed and maybe an article on the Fascist variant of this, via Gentile's term as "the Truncheon as Moral Force" should be maybe even used as a concept for an article itself, juxtaposing the anarchist one. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 07:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Blatantly flawed article, no information about crimes at all
This article is blatantly and ultimately flawed as it says absolutely nothing about crimes against humanity Fascists committed in Libya, Ethiopia, Yugoslavia and Greece. It doesn't say anything about the Fascist Italianization policies of ethnocide committed against Slovenes and Croats for two decades either.
Some useful stuff:
Report of the Slovene-Italian historical and cultural commission: http://www.kozina.com/premik/indexeng_porocilo.htm
Crimes in Ethiopia: http://www.africanidea.org/Revisiting_fascistitaly.pdf
Italian website on war crimes: http://www.criminidiguerra.it/
- So then add that to the article. Smitty1337 (talk) 09:14, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
- Add it, but be careful of Bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 16:07, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
Orphaned references in Italian Fascism
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Italian Fascism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Sestani2012-02":
- From Pula: Sestani, Armando, ed. (10 February 2012). "Il confine orientale: una terra, molti esodi" [The Eastern Border: One Land, Multiple Exoduses]. I profugi istriani, dalmati e fiumani a Lucca [The Istrian, Dalmatian and Rijeka Refugees in Lucca] (in Italian). Instituto storico della Resistenca e dell'Età Contemporanea in Provincia di Lucca. p. 12–13.
- From National Hall, Trieste: Sestani, Armando, ed. (10 February 2012). "Il confine orientale: una terra, molti esodi" [The Eastern Border: One Land, Multiple Exoduses]. I profugi istriani, dalmati e fiumani a Lucca [The Istrian, Dalmatian and Rijeka Refugees in Lucca] (in Italian). Instituto storico della Resistenca e dell'Età Contemporanea in Provincia di Lucca. p. 12–13.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:44, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Why Present Tense?
Why is this article not written in the past tense, seeing as it's about Mussolini's period? Conflating fascist tendencies in Italy today and implying they were features of Mussolini's Italy makes this article very unreliable. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 22:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
- Italian Fascism exists alive and well today. There are well-known Italian Fascists in Italy today, including Benito Mussolini's granddaughter Alessandra Mussolini. Some material is described in past tense, such as Italian Fascism's historic imperialist stances, that are no longer relevant.--R-41 (talk) 22:21, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Recent edits re "modernity" etc
Given problems elsewhere on fascism/Nazism pages, I've quickly picked through some of the new material added in this series of edits. Although the material added can, at a stretch, be backed up with material from the book, as far as I can tell from Google Books word searches, the book cited, Fascist Modernities: does not use the words "rejuvenation", "natality"; does not say anything as specific as "liberal aesthetics .. distracting people from reality" or fascists claiming that a national culture did not exist "prior to Fascist efforts to mould one"; and has nothing on the specific pages cited about "new man", "hygiene" etc. I would also suggest that the person making these edits is the same as R-41 (talk · contribs), editing anonymously following similar criticism of his editing at Talk:Nazism. N-HH talk/edits 08:38, 30 May 2013 (UTC)