Talk:Jack Ruby

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"more of a nuisance" ?[edit]

The "criticism" section ends with the following sentence: "...trying to make friends with people and being more of a nuisance.[85]" Sentence is incomplete and needs to be rephrased.

I have removed the sub-section "Gun" from the section "Popular Culture". Even though the type of gun to kill Oswald was a .38 Caliber Colt and has been referenced many times in pop culture, the specific gun that Ruby used to shoot Oswald has not been referenced in any pop culture and the sub-section was only about the auction that the gun was sold at.

Anyone looking to reverse the change let me know. Ug5151 (talk) 02:02, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

LHO "accused" or "alleged"[edit]

Multiple government investigations have concluded that LHO assassinated JFK. The evidence is copious and compelling. The fact that Oswald never stood trial, due to Ruby having shot him, is immaterial. We have numerous sources giving us the authority to say that Oswald assassinated Kennedy. Trying to water down the facts to allow the possibility that someone else killed Kennedy is WP:FRINGEy and against WP:WEIGHT. --Pete (talk) 04:33, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

That government investigations concluded LHO assassinated JFK does not prove he did it. I am not a specialist, but apparently there are evidences that have been disregarded or that contradict the conclusion of the government investigations. I do not think it is the role of Wikipedia to judge the evidences and conclusions, it is enough to say what is known: that LHO is accused of killing JFK. I will modify to say the he "assassinated, according to government investigations", as in the article on LHO. --Cokaban (talk) 10:52, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
To prove something, it is better, if possible, not to cite copious evidence but to cite one fact. --Cokaban (talk) 10:55, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
In fact, i know next to nothing about this story, but do not believe there can be a "proof", and Wikipedia should not affirm something unknown. After watching one documentary and looking up a map, i have the question: wasn't JFK shot from the front, according to the gun wound and witness accounts, while LHO was supposed to be behind on the right? Why to affirm something unknown? --Cokaban (talk) 11:24, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
This peripheral page is not the appropriate place to debate whether LHO should be described as the "alleged" assassin. Consensus at the primary topic articles is that "alleged" is inappropriate weasel-wording. The fact that he was killed before being tried does not make it impossible to state as a fact that LHO was the assassin without a trial and conviction, and the use of "alleged" is undue weight in favor of a wide variety of conspiracy theories. Acroterion (talk) 12:48, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
I did not write "alleged", i wrote "accused", i do not see what was wrong about it. It was not that LHO was killed that makes impossible to state the fact. It looks like it is not known to be a fact, even if it is true. The known fact is: LHO was accused of killing JFK. --Cokaban (talk) 14:34, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
To put it simple: anyone who wishes to state in Wikipedia that LHO killed JFK must at least personally KNOW it. Otherwise only known facts should be stated. This is not about conspiracy theory (i do not propose any theory), it is about known and proved vs. unknown or unproved. Maybe i will try later to give examples from elsewhere in Wikipedia or other encyclopedias. --Cokaban (talk) 15:10, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
I understand your position, but in this community, we go by the community rules and standards regardless of what we ourselves believe. This question has been debated long and hard, but we have sources - good, solid, reliable sources - that we can use to support the statement that Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. Views to the contrary lack the weight we need. That's how we work, and if you think wikipolicy should be changed site-wide, then this is not the page to argue that view. --Pete (talk) 21:36, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
In this case, these sources must be cited. As i have not seen them, i cannot say more, but i doubt that, given the circumstances, a "hard" proof is even theoretically possible. Wikipedia is not about beliefs but about facts. I do not yet see the contradiction with the wikipolicy, but i have not checked the links you gave yet. --Cokaban (talk) 09:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
In fact, there is nothing special about wikipolicy in this case, rules are the same as in real life. How would you tell, for example, your child who was LHO? Would you say that he killed JFK, or would you say that he is believed by you and some others to have killed JFK? --Cokaban (talk) 10:19, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I have reinstated my contribution, amending it to include definitive proof that LHO was deemed the lone killer before any investigation could even begin. Deputy Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach designated him in his memo to Mr. Moyers, issued the day after LHO's removal. Given the official sources I have provided, it would appear extremely odd were Wikipedia to reject my contribution. Accused or alleged? Neither applies. He was simply "designated". Let's stop the bickering once and for all. 4eyes (talk) 16:50, 23 November 2013 (UTC)4eyes (talk) 16:47, 23 November 2013 (UTC)4eyes
The reliable sources all say that Oswald fired the fatal shot, and therefore he was the assassin, and that's what these articles must say. The wide variety of unreliable souces pushing many speculative, mutually exclusive conspiracy theories does not change the clear consensus of reliable sources and professional investigations. Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy, just as John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln. Neither was tried nor convicted, but both are called the assassin by the reliable sources. All other scenarios are unreliable speculative conspiracy theories, which can be described in the articles about those conspiracy theories. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:53, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Cullen328, those sources must be cited. Which sources are reliable is a subjective point of view in general. Your statement about "all the reliable sources" make me suspect that you are lying: i do not believe you know what all the reliable sources have said, unless you decide which sources are reliable based on what they said. --Alexey Muranov (talk) 17:52, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

The Warren Commission[edit]

It is known fact that this group began with the premise that "LHO killed JFK" and then set out to write the report that supported that claim. It is known fact that the three shots supposedly fired by LHO were physically impossible to make in the time allotted. This is not "leaning towards conspiracy theory". It is stating independent fact. It is therefore perfectly acceptable to make reference to the uncertainty surrounding the culpability of LHO when stating that JR killed him. 4eyes (talk) 00:01, 22 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4eyes (talkcontribs) 23:19, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

You are completely incorrect that it was "physically impossible" to get off those three shots with that rifle at those people in that moving vehicle from that sniper perch. Difficult? Yes. Impossible? Absolutely not. Oswald was a marksman and other skilled shooters have duplicated the feat, as closely as conditions can be replicated. Skilled and lucky shooting, from Oswald's point of view? Yes. Impossible? Absolutely not. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:07, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Excuse me, it's hard not to laugh when reading your contribution. However, I'm pleased to debate the issue with you. By all means please prove me wrong. Let's start with you providing some independently verifiable references to these shooters who claim to have been capable of replicating the events. However, were your claim true, it is actually a moot point because it is well established that the shots came from multiple locations. But for argument's sake, let's see what you've got. Thank you for engaging in this discussion. 4eyes (talk) 16:26, 24 November 2013 (UTC)4eyes
Feel free to laugh, as it doesn't bother me. This article must reflect how the main assassination and Oswald articles describe Oswald. Those articles have archives where this issue has been debated at great length and in enormous detail. The consensus is that reliable sources support the description of Oswald as the assassin. Conspiracy theories can be discussed in articles about the conspiracy thories. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:23, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Read my references![edit]

People, why is it so hard for you to accept reality? My contribution cites official, verifiable information. The latest "undo" of it cites "common sense". Are you serious? Also, before invoking WPBRD, I suggest you read it. I did. And I have followed the procedures. You have NOT. NO ONE has chosen to refute or discuss my contribution in a civilized manner. Stop your baseless bullying and fulfill your obligation to publish FACTUAL, verifiable information, not "common sense", especially here, on such an important historical incident. Thank you. 4eyes (talk) 21:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC)4eyes

The sources provided are far from adequate to support the assertions made.
Your interpretation of a memo is neither official nor a verifiable source. You claim this memo instructed the Warren Commission to make certain findings, yet the memo was written before the commission was established, and in fact indicated Katzenbach's preference that such a commision not be established, relying on an investigation by the FBI instead.
The History Channel is known for having many dramatic episodes about Nazi Germany; it is not known for its scholarly research. Even if it were a marginally reliable source, citing a full 93-minute video for a contentious point is about as acceptable as saying "Read The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. It's in there somewhere." Where and by whom is it stated that "considerable hard evidence proving the contrary was known at the time"? Fat&Happy (talk) 23:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I sometimes enjoy watching shows on the History Channel, but some are better than others. Many of their shows resort to sensationalism and speculation, and they are willing to advance wild fringe claims to get viewers, often accompanied by low key disclaimers stating that they don't as a network endorse the factual nature of the claims the show makes. That channel should not be considered a reliable source for controversial claims. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:02, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin". What is not clear about that sentence? I am not "interpreting" anything. It's written in plain English. As for the establishment of the commission, it was set up shortly after the issuance of this memo. Had you thoroughly read it, you would see that the proposal to create a commission (composed of "unimpeachable" people) was made in a "cya" environment (cover your ass) because there was doubt that the simple issuing of an FBI report would be sufficient to convince the US and the world. That's why, ultimately, the commission was formed. As such, their "investigation" began with the fait accompli outlined in that memo. Links to it are readily available, including from the official government archives JFK commemorative website. Note that there is also a plain text version, however I personally prefer the old typewriter version with date and signature.
Also, citing totally unrelated subjects, such as you done here with the History Channel, is common practice used to distract and derail the debate. I will not reply further.4eyes (talk) 16:19, 24 November 2013 (UTC)4eyes
This is the Jack Ruby article, and therefore this talk page is completely the wrong place to discuss unsubstantiated speculation that Oswald was not the guy who put a bullet through Kennedy's head. Take that elsewhere, please. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:29, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Cullen328, in this case this page should not state anything about Oswald other than facts: that he was accused of killing JFK. I think unsupported claims about Oswald on this page are not appropriate (everything should be objectively worded). --Alexey Muranov (talk) 17:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Put bluntly, you're foolish if you think ""The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin"." is an idictment of anyone. It can be taken multiple ways. Another, less conspiratorial interpretation, is that the Warren Commision members were well aware that their work had to stand up to extreme scrutiny. The sentence is stating that if Ruby was indeed guilty, the evidence had to be presented in such detail and with such clarity that the public was convinced of it.68.144.172.8 (talk) 21:34, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Dialogs[edit]

Alexey Muranov, are you 4eyes editing under a new name? We have established consensus to call Oswald the assassin without qualification, and this page is the wrong place to try to change that. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:58, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

No, i am not 4eyes. Ok without qualification, not ok without a reference. Unsupported claims or personal beliefs are inappropriate. If you are knowledgeable about the facts, you may share your knowledge here but not without proofs or references. --Alexey Muranov (talk) 18:15, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
When and with whom did you establish consensus? I did not participate. --Alexey Muranov (talk) 18:20, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Please read the archives for the main assassination article and the Oswald article. You will find the consensus there. This talk page is clearly the wrong place to discuss it. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 19:24, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Ah, I see now. You used to be called Cokaban, right? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 19:30, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes. --Alexey Muranov (talk) 07:44, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

November 23 section?[edit]

Can a "November 23" section be added to the Timeline? This seems like a critical omission. Thanks 24.62.209.63 (talk) 18:42, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if anything really relevant happened on 23 November. However, as far as critical omissions go, the phone calls received by Dallas authorities in the early hours of 24 November, saying Oswald would be killed if he wasn't adequately protected, seems a fairly spectacular one. Especially as one of the callers was identified by the Dallas police officer recipient as being Ruby. [1] Podiaebba (talk) 15:54, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Since it appears that the following is going to be censored out of this page (yes, even the Warren Report!), I'm going to stick it here.

Between 2:30 and 3am on Sunday, November 24, anonymous calls were received by the Sheriff's Office and FBI, with a man declaring that a committee had made a decision "to kill the man that killed the President."[1] According to Lieutenant Billy Grammer, at 3am an anonymous call was also received by the Dallas Police, taken by Grammer as the dispatcher on duty. The caller warned Grammer that he knew of the plan to move Oswald from the basement and that if the plan went ahead "we are going to kill him". After the shooting, Grammer, who knew Ruby, and found the voice familiar at the time of the call, identified Ruby as the caller.[2]

Podiaebba (talk) 17:33, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

"minimal?"[edit]

At the top it says, "Others have argued against this, saying that Ruby's connection with gangsters was minimal at most, or circumstantial, and also that Ruby was not the sort to be entrusted with such an act within a high-level conspiracy."

This entire article then goes on to detail numerous engagements with organized crime or figures associated with organized crime. I think it should just read "Others have argued against this, saying that Ruby's connection with gangsters was circumstantial, and that Ruby was not the sort to be entrusted with such an act within a high-level conspiracy."

I don't care to make the change, but maybe an editor that is more in the know could do so. 173.17.14.72 (talk) 23:21, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ Warren Report, Chapter V - Detention and Death of Oswald: The Abortive Transfer
  2. ^ Dallas Police Lieutenant Billy Grammer was interviewed in May 1984 by Henry Hurt, with results published in Hurt's Reasonable doubt: an investigation into the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, 1986, p409-10 and p518; Grammer was again interviewed in 1988 on camera for an interview broadcast in the first episode of Central Independent Television's The Men Who Killed Kennedy, "The Coup D'Etat" (1988). Grammer's interview in The Men Who Killed Kennedy is cited in James W. Douglass (2008), JFK and the Unspeakable, Orbis Books, p368