Talk:Jacob Frank

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Untitled[edit]

Those interested in Jakob Frank may waht to consider the discussion of his ideas and his influence in Poland/Lithuania in Czeslaw Miloz's 'The Land of Ulro (Farrar,Strauss, Giroux, 1981). There, Milosz discusses his great predecessor Mickiewicz's theories of metempsychosis and there (possible) derivation from Miskiewicz's mother, who was a Frankist.Rangoni (talk) 22:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC) I have read that he held a small army in his last days, and he had connections with the Tsar's court. Is he mentioned in or an inspiration for the Protocols of Zion Sages? -- Error


Jacob Franks Conversion To Islam[edit]

Jacob Franks conversion to Islam whatever his reason was is not mentioned in this article, there are some sources that do state Jacob Frank did appear to convert to Islam, the first link is to a reliable unbiased source, the other two links try to disprove Jacob Frank and may possibly be biased:


http://www.languages.utah.edu/kabbalah/protected/dicta_frank_lenowitz.pdf

http://www.shema.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=28

http://www.porges.net/Frankists.html

--Taz Manchester 00:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)Taz Manchester

None of the sources you cite (granted, the 2nd source is to a broken link) indicate that Frank converted to Islam, nor that he ever even flirted with the idea. Is it possible you're confusing him with Shabtai Tzvi? Tomertalk 10:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Baron Polognes or Prinz von Polen ?[edit]

Norman Davies in "God's Playground" writes about Frank, but he says that Frank lived in France not in Austrian oberschafen-something as mentioned in the article. He also writes about Franks income, which made me to check his bio in wiki. Davies says that Franks yearly income after he moved to France was about 2.400.000 zl ? 10-15 times more then the income of Poland itself.

POV[edit]

The tenor of much of this article seems inappropriate for Wikipedia. The article uses regularly highly POV phrases like "monstrous" and "immoral" to describe sexual behavior that is likely normal to much of Wikipedia's audience, and comes from a perspective many Wikipedia readers would find strange, perhaps archaic, perhaps offensive. The article should describe facts from a neutral perspective, describing Frankist beliefs and practices, and Orthodox Jews' condemnation of them, with equal matter-of-factness. --Shirahadasha 01:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Various editors have removed the most POV portions of the prior version, including previous use of highly POV language like "monstrous", "degenerated", "immoral", etc., so removed POV tag. --Shirahadasha 06:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

um pov[edit]

untill someone complains, cant we tell the truth? .. and another thing - anyone have info on freud being influenced by Frankism?

Conversion to Islam, Refutation of the Torah, etc.[edit]

In Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism she says on pages 30-31 that "When [Jacob Frank] returned to his native Poland, he formed an underground sect whose members observed Jewish laws in public but in secret indulged in forbidden sexual practices. When he was excommunicated in 1756, Frank converted first to Islam (during a visit to Turkey) and then to Catholicism, taking his flock with him. Frank did not simply cast off the restrictions of the Torah, but positively embraced immorality. In his view, the Torah was not merely outmoded but dangerous and useless. The commandments were the laws of death and must be discarded. Sin and shamelessness were the only ways to achieve redemption and to find God." The footnote attributes this to Gershom Scholem's "Redemption Through Sin," in The Messianic Idea in Judaism. However, this is so contrary to what is presently in the article that I really don't know how to work it in. CClio333 (talk) 02:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't take Armstrong at face value, when she is explicitly referring to Scholem. If I wanted to change anything here I would work directly from Scholem. From my acquaintance with Scholem what is currently in the entry is not as far off as you seem to indicate. But direct quotes from Scholem on this subject should definitely be acceptable in my view. warshytalk 11:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Iwania = Podolia?[edit]

The web page Case of Jacob Frank and The Frankist Movement reads "Iwania (Podolia)". This could be interpreted in two ways as I can see it: either they are synonymous, or Iwania is a locality within Podolia. I think the present article should give some context to the name Iwania. __meco 23:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there is a town called Ivanja in Podolia (some 2.5 miles distant from Mielnica). I cannot ascertain, however, whether this is the settlement referred to in the article. I wikilinked its mention, in the sincere hope that it would compel some knowledgeable soul to either write an article on the correct Iwania or to create a redirect to an extant article on the subject. Tomertalk 10:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello Tomer,
As your talk page is too busy, I've decided to communicate through this one. I think in your page you give a very detailed bio, but if I'm not mistaken, nowhere you give your real name. Any special reason for that? In any case, I am assuming by your signature above that your name may be Tomer. I don't have a detailed bio in my page, but the name is certainly there.
Now for the subject at hand: I think your question is very good, and I don't have an immediate answer. I am responding here just to let you know I am willing to research the subject more carefully when I have some time, and maybe come up with an answer. It was very instructive to me reading your page, and I agree with you that your question above should get a more appropriate answer some time. Maybe I'll be able to provide it. Regards,
warshytalk 17:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know how not giving my real name (as though Tomer isn't my real name) is relevant to a discussion of the Jacob Frank article. Perhaps you'd care to expound on my talk page, since such a thing seems me to be not even remotely germane here. Can you provide an answer to my question or not? Thanks, Tomertalk 09:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow! You get pretty defensive with a little question. It is just that I've noticed this on this universe of Wikipedia, where, it seems, people are willing to discuss anything in the world in detail, except their real names. This is just the ethos I have observed here, and I don't quite understand it. That's all. No, it is absolutely not germane to this page, but as I said, your page looks already too cluttered to just add another streak. Actually, on my talk page, I have already discussed this subject with another Wiki-editor colleague, and his detailed answer to my question may give you a clue as to what I was referring to. If you care to add your view/opinion on the subject there, I'd appreciate it very much. Thanks, and excuse me for diverting you from your busy wiki-schedule discussing a subject that is not precisely germane to the knowledge that is compiled in this environment, but is somehow germane, in my view, to the ethos and ethics of the people involved in the enterprise. warshytalk 12:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

As for your specific/germane question re: 'Iwania', I don't have an answer yet, though the subject does interest me, and I hope to find one in the not too distant future. Regards,
warshytalk 12:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Lwów - Polish city[edit]

I would like to remind that unitil 1772 there was no such a city like Lemberg or Lviv. This city belonged to Polish Crown. Also German or Ukrainian name after a First Partioton of Poland shouldn't be changeg to another than Polish, similarly like with other Polish cities in ex. Crakow, Warsaw or Lublin. (Majan (talk) 20:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC))

Your objection seems to be based on an objection to the use of the name Lemberg. Your statements make little sense. The city was certainly always Lwów in Polish, but the idea you seem to be asserting, i.e., that it was only ever known as such, is erroneous. I don't know that it should be referred to necessarily as Lemberg, but that is certainly how most Jews referred to it prior to WWII (and guess what, that's pretty important, given the subject of the article). Your inclusion of the examples of Crakow (Kraków), Warsaw (Warszawa), and Lublin (uh..., well, Lublin!), make your statements allthemore confusing. What, exactly, is the point you're trying to make here? Tomertalk 09:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Excommunicated?[edit]

The article seems to imply, especially in the intro, that Frank was excommunicated from Judaism. However, Judaism does not have nor does it believe in excommunication. If you're mom was a Jew, you're a Jew, and nothing can change that. Even if you convert to another religion, you can still be welcomed back at any time and are considered a Jew in apostasy. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.149.222 (talkcontribs) 23:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Cherem. -- Zsero (talk) 23:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, like Yousef Al Khattab (former Joseph Leonard Cohen), an ex-rabbi who converted to Islam and recieved death threats for him and his family, resulted in him moving from Jerusalem to Morocco.

(But you are welcomed at any time!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.233.127.203 (talk) 15:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Frederic Chopin, Adam Mickiewicz and Juliusz Slowacki[edit]

Chopin, Mickiewicz and Słowacki's Frankist origins is nothing else than an urbane legend ascribing Frankism to anyone whose name is Krzyżanowski or Majewski. There is no other evidence whatsoever of their Frankism. Słowacki's mother was Armenian, Chopin's mother came from an ancient noble family, and Mickiewicz's origins were thought to be many things, simply he was famous enough for people to claim him for themselves. The theory that his mother was a Muslim Tatar seems the most probable.

The only famous Frankist, whose origins are documented, was Maria Szymanowska - Mickiewicz's mother-in-law - yet the article doesn't mention her at all.

Mieses was a zionist, and his theory was nothing else than ascribing Jewishness to anyone with certain names - a pracice common among various nationalists, but it's disproven by a number of biographers and historians. Sometimes Krzyżanowski is not a Frankist. Sometimes he's simply a descendant from the owners of Krzyżanów.--94.75.121.6 (talk) 23:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Whether Mies was of was not a Zionist is irrelevant here. His tendencies as well, even if you provide a reliable source attesting to his tendencies. Galassi (talk) 02:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Czeslaw Milosz also stated that Adam M. was a frankist descendent, and he is a highly respected source.Galassi (talk) 02:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Milosz did not. Read Mickiewicz talk page. Actually, read all of those people articles. What you're doing here is quoting rumours as facts. And yes, it is relevant that a zionist author claimed that half of Poles were Frankists. It's simply an absurd assertion, based on people's names alone, without any serious research done. He claimed that the last Polish King was a Frankist too. As wonderfully ridiculous as that! --94.75.121.6 (talk) 04:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
It appears that you have already brought that to the Chopin article and it was reverted: [1], [2], [3]. Why not keep it to the people who were Frankists and considered themselves Frankists instead of alleging someone's beliefs and origins without any serious proof?--94.75.121.6 (talk) 04:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
We don't do original research here, we simply report what scholars say. therefore you shouldn't delete citations wholesale.Galassi (talk) 15:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
But you don't report what scholars say. No serious scholar agrees with those assertions. Your Russian source says what a tsarist antisemite said. Hardly a proof of anything. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:FRINGE --85.222.86.36 (talk) 01:37, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Czesław Miłosz was a great poet, not a "respected source".Xx236 (talk) 14:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Adam Mickiewicz[edit]

According to local historian Rybczonek (Przodkowie Adama Mickiewicza po kądzieli // Blok-Notes Muzeum Literatury im. Adama Mickiewicza. 1999. Nr 12/13.) Mickiewicz's mother had Tatar roots. There is no single source supporting Jewish roots of Adam. Xx236 (talk) 14:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I reworded the article including all of the sources here and adding some new ones. I hope it's fine now. --85.222.86.36 (talk) 18:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Meir Balaban is the most authoritative source on this subject.-Galassi (talk) 01:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
According to whom? Can you bring any source showing that "Meir Balaban has also traced these genealogies to conclusively prove such descent"? Can you cite what Mieses and Balaban had actually written about Chopin, Mickiewicz and Słowacki?
Don't revert changes to the text made by others. You're removing all of the sources that are reliable and accurate. Do you really consider the Chopin Institute or Juliusz Kleiner (a scholar of Jewish origin) nationalists? Come on!--85.222.86.36 (talk) 12:16, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Balaban is properly sourced, to a volume inthe Harvard library.-Galassi (talk) 14:20, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Hardly a reason to revert me. It was enough to add the missing source, which I just did. Can you bring the relevant citations? --85.222.86.36 (talk) 15:13, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
I have no intention to revert you, but you've created a huge WP:COATRACK.-Galassi (talk) 16:13, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Really? So bringing an urbane legend as fact is fine, but bringing sources to the contrary is not? If none of the men had any Frankist ancestors, then the only place they can have in an article about Jacob Frank is to show how Frank's legacy was used to create such legends, don't you think? --85.222.86.36 (talk) 23:02, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

S. Rybczonek is a Belorusian, calling him a Polish nationalist proves something about the OR author.Xx236 (talk) 12:24, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Jacob Frank now a mascot for Wikipedia sister project Wikiversity[edit]

Hi, I'm developing Jacob Frank as a mascot for Wikipedia's sister project Wikiversity. Wikiversity aims to be an online open school and university, and was also created to host original research. Because of its nature, it's open to educational resources in almost any format. Wikiversity's mascots appear on User talk pages when new Users are welcomed. In my opinion, the Wikiversity mascots could be used more fully as an opportunity to teach. The previously developed Wikiversity mascots lack intrinsic educational value. For example, they include a jack-o-lantern, a goat and twin babies not noticeably tied to anything else. In contrast, Jacob Frank is tied to a chapter of history that is relatively little-known and is probably interesting to some people who might not have heard of him beforehand. I'm also hoping to use his professed ignorance in real life and his doctrine of "purification through transgression" to introduce the Wikiversity policies of "Be bold" and "Ignore all rules" (Wikipedia has very similar policies with the same names). I would appreciate your going over to Wikiversity to provide feedback on the pages about the mascot: v:User:JacobFrank and v:Template:JacobFrank. The Template is left on new Users' talk pages; the Userpage is linked from the template and provides more information about Jacob Frank. Thanks. --AFriedman (talk) 03:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

B-class review[edit]

Failed for WPPOLAND due to insufficient inline references. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:33, 10 April 2013 (UTC)