Talk:James Anthony Froude

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Former good article nominee James Anthony Froude was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
July 16, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
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Pronunciation: Frewed or Frowed? Charles Matthews 21:06, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

"All mention of Froude is henceforth disallowed for I swear by the rood that my name's pronounced Froude".

Quote attributed to James Anthony Froude.

See JAMES ANTHONY FROUDE. A Biography, 1818-1856 Dunn, Waldo Hilary


"Oceana (1886), the record of a tour in Australia and New Zealand, notes the prosperity of the working-classes in Adelaide at the date of his visit, when, in fact, owing to a failure in the wheatcrop, hundreds were then living on charity"

I'm cutting this out pending citation or reference of some kind. The relevant "failure in the wheatcrop" is probably referring to the catastrophic early 1880s drought in the mid north affecting marginal farmers - nothing to do with the state of the "working-classes" in Adelaide, and I'm not sure what the reference to "living on charity" is. Let's see a reference to some actual "ridicule" from the press or someone at the time, not an encyclopedia referring ambiguously to someone else ridiculing Froude.

Elizabeth Gaskell[edit]

Is there a source on the claim of Froude's inspiration for Gaskell's "North and South"? I'd like to add it to the page on "The Nemesis of Faith". Thanks. Dozenthey (talk) 23:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I've removed this reference pending citation. The only source I've found so far that mentions Froude in the context of North and South explicitly denies the connection ("Mr Hale's Doubts in North and South" By: Easson, Angus; Review of English Studies: A Quarterly Journal of English Literature and the English Language, 1980 Feb; 31 (121): 30-40.) and the connection between Charlotte and Margaret Hale doesn't make much sense anyway, since Froude and Charlotte didn't meet until after he left the church. However, if anyone has a reference that makes the connection, please add it. Dozenthey (talk) 01:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Revision Plans[edit]

I'm going to start making some major revisions for this page. I'm more familiar with his early life and the religious controversy (and reading up on the Carlyle business) than with his later historical work, so anyone who knows more about that, your help would be appreciated. I've broken the article up into biographical sections; I'll start by expanding Early Life, Religious Controversy, and Carlyle Controversy. The rest of the article is lumped together as "Historian", that maybe could use some further division. That section currently contains way too much unsourced analysis; I think biography should be separated from a distinct section for Analysis or Criticism, which will need plenty of citations. I'm loathe to delete any of it, not knowing how much of it I'll be able to redo myself, but its terribly WP:OR and WP:Opinion right now. Dozenthey (talk) 23:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Ultimately, I ended up rewriting the entire article, using some of the info from the old, but there was just too much opinion to work with. So far I've only been using the Herbert Paul biography and the journal articles listed under references. At some point I (or anyone else who might be interested) might go to the Dunn and Markus biographies for more information. However, once I find the citation for the one quote from History of England and a text copy of Paul to give more specific citations I think the article is complete enough for a GA nomination, so look for that soon. Dozenthey (talk) 18:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, since the new article no longer uses the old text I've removed the Brittanica label. Dozenthey (talk) 18:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:James Anthony Froude/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hello, I will be conducting the GA Review for this article. I found it to be an enjoyable read, although I admit I wasn't aware of Froude or his work until now. :) For the most part it fulfills the Good Article criteria in that it is well written, correctly formatted, and sufficiently referenced. I also see no issues with neutrality and stability. I would like to see some concerns addressed, however, before I promote it to GA-class. Here are my comments/suggestions for improvement:

  • The image Image:JA Froude cartoon.png is using an obsolete copyright tag on the description page. Could this be updated?
  • Because of the length of the article, I suggest expanding the lead somewhat and splitting it into two paragraphs. Nothing is mentioned of where he is from or his family, for example. Something more should be said about his legacy, as well; what he was recognized for back then compared to what is he is recognized for today. I would end with that rather than the downfall of Carlyle's reputation.
  • As it is in article titles, with headers the first letter of the first word, letters in acronyms, and the first letter of each word of a proper noun are capitalized; all other letters should be in lower case. "Life and Works" -> "Life and works", etc.
  • All year and page ranges should use en dashes per WP:DASH and not regular dashes. "1818-1842" -> "1818–1842", etc.
  • Don't forget to link and format years dates "April 23 1818" and "October 20th, 1894" become "April 23, 1818" and "October 20, 1984" respectively.
  • I'm so sorry, I said "years" but meant dates. Per WP:DATE, single years should not be linked, only full dates. Again, so sorry. :( María (habla conmigo) 17:17, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
  • He was the youngest of eight children, including engineer and naval architect William Froude and Anglo-Catholic polemicist Richard Hurrell Froude, fifteen years his elder. Was Richard Hurrell fifteen years his elder, or were both of them? This could use some clarification.
  • Despite his unhappiness and his failure in formal education...: the formally mentioned bullying explains the unhappiness, but does "failure in formal education" denote actual failing? Did he receive poor grades?
  • The paragraph beginning "Beginning in 1836 he was educated at Oriel College, Oxford..." does not contain a one inline citation. One or two should be added for reliability's sake.
  • Froude grew up hearing the conversation and ideas of his brother, John Henry Newman, and John Keble... this is worded oddly since it almost seems like you're saying John Henry Newman is his brother. Perhaps, "hearing the conversation and ideas of his brother with friends/colleagues John Henry Newman and..."?
  • Mainly a stylistic issue, and of course preference is subjective, but I've noticed quite a few parenthetical statements that are not truly necessary; in most cases the parentheses can be removed or the sentences simply rewritten. The paragraph beginning "Froude's historical writing was characterized..." has no less than five! I'm not too big a fan because they slow reading and comprehension, but it's not too big of a deal as far as this review goes. Something to think about later.
  • The work was a popular success, however, and along with Froude's 1858 repudiation of his early novels helped him regained much of the esteem he had lost in 1849. Is it supposed to be "regain"?
  • he married her close friend Henrietta Warre, daughter of John Warre, M.P. for Taunton: maybe I'm thick, but what is "M.P. for Taunton" mean?
  • Bouverie's Act could possibly be described more; what did it entail and how did it facilitate Froude leaving the diaconate? And what is a "laity"?
  • In England, too, Froude's Irish history had its critics, most notably William Edward Hartpole Lecky in his History of England in the Eighteenth Century, the first volumes of which were published in 1878, and in reviews in Macmillan's Magazine: This needs a citation and could possibly stand to be integrated into a complete paragraph.
  • The works in the "References" section should be listed via alphabetical order.

Overall, this is a fairly good article. In the interest of broadness, however, I would like to see some discussion of Froude's literary legacy and influence. Is there enough material available for a "Style and themes" section or even just a section devoted to his legacy, then and now? Although the biography is comprehensive, I do not have too much of a sense of what his importance in the literary world amounts to. Were there any tributes made to him after his death, for example? What do contemporary scholars say about him? How is he regarded now?

On a side note, it's a shame that a better portrait of Froude is not used. Considering the time period, however, it is quite possible that one from the public domain could be uploaded to the commons, if one is interested in doing so. I'll put the article's nomination on hold for a week or so until my concerns have been addressed or otherwise explained away. If you have any questions regarding this review or the article itself, feel free to contact me. María (habla conmigo) 13:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Any updates? I see that most of my concerns have yet to be addressed. The 7-day holding period will be expire tomorrow, but I'll wait until Wednesday to hear from the principle contributors in hopes that this article will not fail. María (habla conmigo) 13:48, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I'm going to have to fail this nomination for the time being as there have been no updates in a week's time. I do hope that the issues I've raised above will be addressed and that the article can be nominated at WP:GAC again in the future. Best of luck, María (habla conmigo) 12:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Private Judgement[edit]

Despite a lack of sympathy with Froude and all concerned in the paragraph, isn't

Looking abroad (1870–1880) Rather than issue an objective and honest historical work, his book was in essence a bigoted and dishonest personal smear against Catholicism and the native Irish people that characterised the Irish in the ugliest stereotypes such as being naturally violent, lazy, rapacious, savage, ungrateful, corrupt, primitive, etc., along with false inflammatory misstatements of fact whilst spinning to the opposite what he extolled were British Protestant and British Protestant settler virtuous and superior character traits and their alleged victimisation at the hands of the Irish.

merely an personal opinion of Froude's book held by the writer ? Claverhouse (talk) 00:34, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I've taken it out. JonChappleTalk 06:28, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

The Irish: "more like a tribe of squalid apes than human beings"[edit]

According to this book on Tomás Ó Criomhthain, James Anthony Froude said this about the Irish. Does anybody know the context? Should this anti-Irish racism be mentioned? (talk) 15:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)