Talk:Jean Moréas

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ethnic origin[edit]

User:Guildenrich has edited the article to say that Moreas was of Arvanite origin. That seems rather odd, as most sources seem to indicate he wasn't. His true name, Papadiamantopoulos, is hardly Arvanite. Were it Leka or Gjeka, maybe. But Papadiamantopoulos? Hardly. I have found numerous sources that say he was of ethnic Greek origin, and added them to the article. --Athenean (talk) 04:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry that Apollinaire is not good for you. Guildenrich (talk) 15:38, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Again another primary source of 1890-1900 that isn't comfirmed by up to date works. Doesn't meet wp:rs standarts anyway.Alexikoua (talk) 21:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I've checked J.M.'s geneological tree, in Universal Bigraphical Lexikon v. 3 of Ekdotike Athenon, his father was a judge, Adamantios Papadiamantopoulos in Athens born in Patra. The point is that secondary and tertiary sources mention just a Greek ancestry.Alexikoua (talk) 21:50, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Guildenrich, I agree with Alexikoua here, your sources are primary sources and on their own do not count as reliable sources (WP:RS), especially considering you are applying your own interpretation. If you haven't got anything current, it will have to be removed.--Ptolion (talk) 15:08, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Just a note on my last edit concerning Moreas's epirote descent. Notwithstanding the fact that this piece of information seems to come right from the horse's mouth ("I believe I am the last representative of the Greek race. My family is from Epirus. It is illustrious. It is called Papadiamantopoulos...) I must note that this is still a PS and should be taken with a pinch of salt. Moreas was, throughout his life, notorious (ironically much like Apollinaire) for constantly devising stories about his alleged or not so alleged illustrious pedigree - a habit that dumbfounded many a biographer of the poet. The exact story of his ancestry is much more complicated and needs detailed sourcing. Jouanny (Moréas, écrivain français, Paris, (1969) & Moréas, écrivain Grec, Lettres Modernes Minard, Athènes, 1975) has collected all available information on Moreas's genealogical tree and it would be nice if someone were ever so kind enough as to take the trouble and locate these two monographs and settle the matter for good. Internet snippets can be notoriously misleading and should only be used with great caution (what is one to make out of this snippet, [1] for instance?). It goes without saying that this silly essentialist quest for his ethnic origins is absolutely lame. Moreas was first and foremost a French. His cultural contribution makes sense only when viewed firmly within the French context and this is what needs to be stressed in this article. So let's please stop this perennial Greek-Albanian dogfight and move on. It is only so nice that there actually was a period when Albanian and Greek identities were not mutually exclusive and it is a real pity that such mixed identities have nowadays become such a fiercely debated and divisive issue--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 13:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Oh, the irony: [2] but then again [3]. So much for primary sources, LOL!--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 19:28, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Update: I got the monograph by Jouanny and added the necessary references and citations. Jouanny considers the poet's paternal line Greek and posits a partial Albanian (i.e. Arvanitic) ancestry for his maternal line. "Il y a toujours eu en Épire une importante minorité albanaise, mais il ne semble pas que les Margaritis (the original family name of Moreas's paternal line) chrétiens orthodoxes, en aient fait partie. Songe-t-il alors au sang albanais qu' a pu apporter sa mère? C' est possible, mais peu probable" Jouanny, op.cit., p.52. Apollinaire seems to be under the false impression that the Diamantis, mentioned by Moreas amongst his ancestors, is to be identified with Kapetan Diamantis, a famous Suliot fighter of the Greek War of Independence ("De son vrai nom, il s'appelle Papadiamantopoulos—qui est une forme grecque d'un grand nom albanais, Diamantis") but that is not so. Apart from the fact that the name Diamantis is purely Greek both etymologically and morphologically (the ending would have been -i were it Albanian) the truth of the matter is that the Diamantis in Moreas's paternal line is none other than Papa Diamantis Margaritis a priest from Plaisia, a village belonging to the Katzanochoria group (near Dodonna). In 1742 he had to flee his village after the execution of his brother Giorgos Margaritis by the Pacha of Ioannina and settle at Aitolikon near Messolongi. See Jouanny op. cit. pp 47-51 for further bibliographical information. Paying a visit to a library can do no harm. So hopefully this whole Moreas Greek-Albanian saga is now settled and some of our most vociferous contributors will finally divert their attentions to actually imrpoving the rest of this article.--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 09:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Well done, Tzimas.Alexikoua (talk) 12:16, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, superb work. And the perfect example of why secondary sources (Jouanny) should be used instead of primary sources (Moreas, Apollinaire). Athenean (talk) 04:33, 20 December 2009 (UTC)