Talk:Jenny Lind

start

I'm glad somebody (Kingturtle) started a page for Jenny Lind. However, a quick survey of on-line bios of Jenny Lind seems to indicate that she wasn't exactly an orphan. Her family was poor, and couldn't always afford to keep her. According to one bio, she bought her parents a house once she had enough money. I don't have time right now to research/write a longer article, but she clearly deserves one. --Fred 13:59 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

In 2003 researchers revealed that Jenny had a secret affair with the composer Chopin. See "Chopin and The Swedish Nightingale" by Cecilia and Jens Jorgensen. Ogg 10:34, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Problems

There are some formatting problems with this article. A whole paragraph is lost because it's inside some kind of formatting box (surrounded with dashed lines). I don't know how to fix it, but i hope someone does, becaus you can't read the information unless you go under 'edit'—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.3.128.95 (talk) 19:24, November 6, 2005

There's also a town in western Arkansas called "Jenny Lind."

There's also a community in North Carolina called "Jenny Lind."

Removing linkspam

I have taken out all the new edits with material from Icons of Europe. This may contain some very useful and important stuff, but WP cannot be used to promote an organisation, even a non-profit. It can be re-added but only in a way that follows WP policies. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be helpful if Jeandebeaumont replied to your concerns here? I'll put a note on his/her talk page. -- Kleinzach (talk) 09:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Jeandebeaumont left this comment on the page:

I have taken the research off as per comments by Kleinzach. But I can't figure out how to reply online at WP  :-) . Please help me at jeandebeaumont@mail.com Thanks, JdB

Perhaps Itsmejudith would like to write to him/her? -- Kleinzach (talk) 10:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I suggest to update the Jenny Lind information under the existing 'Early life and career' section, with fewer references. I understand that the proposed 'New research' section was overdone. The editorial quality control being exercised is appreciated. Jean de Beaumont (talk) 11:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jean, welcome to Wikipedia! I've left you some tips on your Talk Page for future editing so you can avoid adding what looks like spam, etc.

Another more general point.... One of the problems with this article, long before the edits of the last few days, is the extensive use of external links in the body of the article instead of proper footnotes. They are not only distracting, but also give the reader no idea what they are linking to and why. I've already replaced a couple of these. One was to a commercial web site with a definition of "consummation" when there is already a wikipedia article on the meaning on the term. For definitions like this, it's always preferable to link internally. The others were ones like this: [1] which I replaced with ones that looked like this:

Frédéric Chopin, Chopin's Letters, Dover Publications, 1988, p. 372.

But there are still a considerable number of similar external links in the article which need to be cleaned up, re-formatted, or in some cases, removed. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 12:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll reply here if that's OK with everyone because I think Jean and others are reading this page. The main policy that applies is the verification policy. Everything included in the article must have a reliable source. Examples of reliable sources are biographies published by reputable publishers. I don't know enough about Icons of Europe to say at this stage if it counts as a reliable publisher. It is the responsibility of people who want to add information to show that it has a good source. I must also say that I am very relieved that we are discussing this in a polite and friendly way. The requests for comment are a good idea too. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

As you are all probably aware, I put in the RFCs. It'd be a shame if a nice article like this was ruined by an edit war, although it does look like this is going to be settled in a civil manner. Mjroots (talk) 11:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record and for the information of other readers of this page, I have already thanked the above commentators on their userpages for the helpful feedback. Jean de Beaumont (talk) 12:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Verifyng research

I'm starting a new section here as this addresses a specific issue related to the previous section, Removing linkspam. It seems from the Icons of Europe website, that a considerable amount of research has been done. I would suggest that in providing references to verify any new assertions or corrections, that the sources actually used by the researchers on the Icons of Europe project be supplied rather than simply (and repeatedly) referencing their own web site and publications. One possible exception is this reprint, which is hosted on the site, and written by one of the project's directors for another publication:

Jens A. Jorgensen, 'On the trail of Mazurka in A-flat, opus 24, n° 3', Chopin in the World, April 2005.

That article seems to be reasonably well referenced. Note that not all references given on Wikipedia need to be available online, provided full bibliographic information is provided. Voceditenore (talk) 13:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

George Jones

GEORGE JONES.- I would be interested to learn what the evidence is for Jenny Lind's "English suitor, George Jones" (the paragraph commencing "After Mendelssohn died ...). - I have not seen that name before. In her Memoir of 1891, however, there is a convoluted story about her short-lived engagement to "Captain Harris of the Indian army" in early 1849. There is new conclusive evidence that this captain was an invention (but a cover for CHOPIN). For example: British Army records on Mrs Grote's relative Cadet/Lt Claudius Harris stationed in India at the time; and the London press ridiculing Jenny Lind and her alleged fiancé, whom she then gave the assumed name "Mr Harris" (Punch finally ironises in June 1849: "So Betsey Prigg was right we find - There is NO Mrs. Harris!"). Jean de Beaumont (talk) 13:10, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I just had a look. I suspect someone inserted it as a joke. Elvis Costello (who wrote the mini-opera on Jenny Lind and Hans Christian Andersen), has sung with a country and western singer named George Jones. I did a google search and this assertion about her English suitor, George Jones, only appears on Wikipedia and its mirrors. I'm going to remove it. Best Voceditenore (talk) 11:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Follow-up The article had originally referred to a Captain Harris. I found the point where another editor substituted the name George Jones. It's here. He/she used a rather dishonest edit summary, describing it as "improving the sentence structure". I've reinstated the original assertion about Capt Harris with a {{Citation needed}} tag. Voceditenore (talk) 12:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, as I noted above on 16 March, new evidence shows that "Captain Harris" - only cited in Lind's Memoir of 1891 - was a fictitious name (designed to cover her plan to marry Chopin). Shall I revise it online (with NOPV proof) or show you a draft here first? Jean de Beaumont (talk) 06:45, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

You can go ahead to make the change, but it could be reverted if you don't have a good secondary source for it. I don't think the Icons of Europe website itself is sufficient as a source. Since it seems that there may be some debate about the facts of Jenny Lind's life, the article is going to need in-line citations to show what comes from where. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

RFCs

I'm not sure what it is upon which I am being asked to comment. Dlabtot (talk) 18:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the RFC as the issue seems to be settled now. Mjroots (talk) 12:04, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Sources

From what I can see at the moment, I would say that the Jorgensen & Jorgensen biography, published by Icons of Europe, is a reliable source for the article. This is an important point to resolve at this stage, so if anyone disagrees, it should be thrashed out here and perhaps taken to RfC. Icons of Europe seems to be a new and small publisher, but a serious one. Other facts or surmises about Lind unearthed by Icons of Europe since the publication of the biography wouldn't seem to count as reliably sourced. My advice to Jean is to start working as soon as possible with some academic historians with a view to getting the new research published in good historical journals. Peer-reviewed journal papers are always good sources for WP articles. New research cannot be published on WP until it has been published elsewhere. Hope this helps. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Judith, many thanks! Icons of Europe will be delighted and your advice about "historical journals" is well taken. - Concerning your point "reliably sourced": It would seem that a good deal of the sources noted are reliable (e.g. N.W. Senior's letters; Paris and London press; and Meyerbeer). However, Niecks 1888 on 1848-1849 and later years (still widely used by scholars) and Lind's Memoir 1891 on 1848-1849 are indeed unreliable because of the cover-up of Chopin and Lind's romance. But once that is understood, Niecks provides a wealth of useful information and hints - the Memoir is awful to read and less useful. Even some of Chopin's letters have been incorrectly translated and annotated (notably 30 Oct. 1848 - Arthur Hedley is guilty on two key points). That's why a large effort has gone into cross-referencing the above bio/memoir with a large amount of newly discovered original source material from the period (including official certificates, Queen Victoria's private Journal, and unpublished handwritten Lind letters). - FYI, I have informed MusicalConnoisseur about my sandbox proposal for a similarly revised 1848-1849 section in the Chopin article (which includes other period sources seen from Chopin's point of view). Jean de Beaumont (talk) 17:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks Jean, but I am concerned that you are still thinking in terms of using letters directly. They are primary sources and should not be the main resource for an article like this. If you check the verification policy and the reliable sources guideline there is a great deal of wise advice that you will find instructive. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Noted! I will study that. I am beginning to understand :-) . Jean de Beaumont (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Louisa Cramptron

Thomas Crampton married Louisa, a talented singer and friend of Jenny Lind. Does anyone have a reference for her maiden name please? Mjroots (talk) 12:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Found the answer, it was Louisa Martha Hall. Mjroots (talk) 21:59, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Soup / Page layout

I came to this page and was surprised not to find a reference to the Jenny Lind Soup; without having to wade through the complete page history, is there a reason for this omisssion?

I also noted a few infelicities in the page's layout: I believe that starting an article with images on the left is frowned upon at Wikipedia (see: MOS:IMAGE), and on seeing this example it becomes clear to me why. Worse, there is a huge sea of white space at the bottom of the section "Jenny Lind's American tour"; this seems mainly due to the extraordinary length of the caption under Image:Lind London 1850 DAG LIT.jpg and also to the general overabundance of images in the article. I suggest the number of images should be reduced: why have two images of her signature? Why have several almost identical daguerreotypes (Image:Jlind2.gif & Image:Jenny Lind Lithograph.jpg and: Image:Lind root.JPG & Image:Image-Jenny Lind Lithograph 2.jpg. Once the unnecessay images have been removed, the remaining ones could probably be arranged without causing such huge white space to appear on the rendered page.

Lastly, I think the article should have the template {{Commons}} in the section "External links" — see Commons:Jenny Lind. Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I moved some images down further in the article and tried to streamline some of the image captions. Do we need ALL those 1850 images of her? Also, they should alternate left and right. I also added a few references. The article still needs lots more in-line references. There must be an obit in The Times? -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Much improved; regarding the images: see my comments above — they should be culled. Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

New file File:Johanna Maria ('Jenny') Lind by Alfred, Count D'Orsay.jpg

Recently the file File:Johanna Maria ('Jenny') Lind by Alfred, Count D'Orsay.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 19:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Hypnotism & Jenny Lind

I know nothing about Jenny Lind, I am expert on the history of hypnotism and editor of the collected works of James Braid, the founder of hypnotherapy. However, someone with an interest in this lady might like to know that Braid recounts a curious story about Jenny Lind, which he repeated several times in his writings. See the page of my book linked to below.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Vs35STwQYQoC&lpg=PP1&dq=discovery%20of%20hypnosis&pg=PA220#v=onepage&q&f=false

Elsewhere in the same collection of writings, John Milne Bramwell, another hypnotist and follower of Braid, writes, "The following is an interesting account, published in The Medical Times for September, 1847, by an independent observer, of the power possessed by certain somnambules of imitating language and song." He quotes the newspaper as follows, hope you don't mind me reproducing it in full but someone might find this useful in relation to Jenny Lind's biography,

On Tuesday last, the 3rd [of the month], MIle. Jenny Lind [a world-renowned soprano], accompanied by Mr. and Mrs. Schwabe, and a few of their friends, attended a séance at Mr. Braid’s for the purpose of witnessing some of the extraordinary phenomena of hypnotism. There were two girls who work in a warehouse, and who had just come in their working attire. Having thrown them into the sleep, Mr. Braid sat down to the piano, and the moment he began playing, both somnambules arose and approached the instrument, when they joined him in a trio. Having awoke one of the girls Mr. Braid said, although she was ignorant of the grammar of her own language when awake, that when in the sleep she would prove herself competent to accompany anyone in the room in singing songs in any language, giving both notes and words correctly – a feat which she was quite incompetent to perform in the waking condition. He then requested anyone in the room to put her to the test, when Mr. Schwabe sat down to the instrument, and played and sang a German song, in which she accompanied him correctly, giving both notes and words simultaneously with Mr. Schwabe. Another gentleman then tried her with one in Swedish, in which she succeeded. Next the queen of song, the far-famed Jenny Lind, sat down to the instrument and sang most beautifully a slow air, with Swedish words, which the somnambulist accompanied her in, in the most perfect manner both as regards words and music. Jenny now seemed resolved to test the powers of the somnambulist to the utmost by a continued strain of the most difficult roulades and cadenzas, for which she is so famous, including some of her extraordinary sostentuto [sustained] notes, with all their inflections from pianissimo to forte crescendo, and again diminishing to thread-like pianissimo, but in all these fantastic tricks and displays of genius by the Swedish nightingale, even to the shake, she was so closely and accurately tracked by the somnambulist, that several in the room occasionally could not have told, merely by hearing, that there were two individuals singing – so instantaneously did she catch the notes, and so perfectly did their voices blend and accord. Next, Jenny having been told by Mr. Braid that she might be tested in some other language, this charming songstress commenced ‘Casta Diva,’ and the ‘A la Bell a mu Ritornella’, in which the fidelity of the somnambulist’s performance, both in words and music, was most perfect, and fully justified all Mr. Braid had alleged regarding her powers. She was also tested by Mlle. Lind in merely imitating language, when she gave most exact imitations; and Mr. Schwabe also tried her by some most difficult combinations of sound, which he said he knew no one was capable of imitating correctly without much practice, but the somnambulist imitated them correctly at once, and that whether spoken slowly or quickly. When the girl was aroused, she had no recollection of anything which had been done by her, or that she had afforded such a high gratification to all present, by proving the wonderful powers of imitation which are acquired by some patients during a state of artificial somnambulism; she said she merely felt somewhat out of breath, as if she had been running.

--HypnoSynthesis (talk) 11:33, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Dickinson can write her own letters, thank you very much...

Ssilvers can "fix" whatever is factually incorrect, but selectively removing elements of a very short letter, from a well-known poet, is silly, and rather tendentious.

By the way, the italics and the paragraph breaks were in the original letter; my, how presumptuous, you little Wikityrant! Mysweetoldetc. (talk) 22:16, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

You seem to have made numerous transcription errors. Other sources do not show the italics. Also the letter is far too long. Other sources do not show the paragraph breaks. If you insist on including such a long quote, it may be deleted. Please keep quotes as short as possible. This quote already takes up a good chunck of the article. Also, please be WP:CIVIL in your discussions on Wikipedia. -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:10, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Attention: the Phil S. Silvers Show

"You seem to have made numerous transcription errors." Errors? Then name them, dammit!

"Other sources do not show the italics." Supply the sources; I provided mine. Or is that too much to ask? Talk about intellectual incivility!

"Other sources do not show the paragraph breaks." So what? My source does, and it makes for easier reading and comprehension.

"If you insist on including such a long quote, it may be deleted." In other words, this Wikityrant will tear down an insightful firsthand account by a youthful contemporary of Jenny Lind - Emily Dickinson, no less - if certain portions of the letter are not edited out, to the little tyrant's satisfaction!

This has little to do with the length of Dickinson's letter: that's a red herring. The point is to remove elements that are not complimentary to Lind. As Voltaire said: "To the living we owe respect. To the dead we owe only the truth." Mysweetoldetc. (talk) 22:00, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear Mysweetoldetc.: (1) Transcription errors: You omitted quite a few words like "oft", transposed words, etc. Run a comparison of the two versions, and you will see. Or just compare your original version carefully to your source (and either of the sources I mention below) and you will see that your transcription of the text contained numerous omissions and other errors. (2) I have put back in the italics based on this edition: Letters of Emily Dickinson, Volume 1, ed. Mabel Loomis Todd, Roberts Brothers, 1894. I see that different editions disagree about which words (if any) are in italics in the letter, so I beg your pardon. (3) Italics and paragraph breaks are not shown in the transcription shown in: Emily Dickinson's Reception in the 1890s: A Documentary History by Willis J. Buckingham, University of Pittsburgh, 1989, ISBN 0822985152. Indeed, I have seen no source that contains the paragraph break before "Father". (3) You misunderstand my statement above: It is not I who will delete the long quote, but possibly other editors, based on our content and style guidelines. This is because the quote was far too long (and may still be too long), and the whole section on the American tour is too long and gives undue weight to this portion of Lind's life. If I understand your comment above, you are saying that I have removed "elements that are not complimentary to Lind". I don't think this is so. What have I removed that is critical of Lind? My intention was to shorten and streamline the quote by removing repetitive material and the incomprehensible (at least to me) statement about "a little too excess of monkey", which I don't think would add anything to our readers. However, I think that other editors might find the entire quote to be unnecessary or would move it to a footnote. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:05, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Dear Silver - I'd make three points here. First, as to "monkeys", ED's inclusion of her fathers reaction to Jenny Lind is best left as it is; it's part of the historical record, if you will. To remove this is to "correct" her commentary. This is an egregious intervention; let Dickinson speak.

Second, if you can find commentaries from a number of contemporaries of Lind, then you can list short, epigramatic portions of these quotes. If not, then Dickinson's quote stands as a unique and engaging - and as always with Dickinson, highly perceptive - evaluation of Lind.

The "too long" complaint and the "undue weight" are silly. See undue weight: it's about giving equal time to the Flat Earth hypothesis and to arguments against the human causes of global warming. It's not applicable here.

And finally, it's telling that you chose to put a block on the "undo" function when you edited my contribution. That wasn't very straight of you, was it, Silvers? And say hi to Courcelles and Company Mysweetoldetc. (talk) 18:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, so I can't block anyone or anything. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:29, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

American tour

The American tour section is much too long for the size of the article. It is now 1,102 words out of a total of 3,457 words – nearly a third of the whole article. By contrast the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography devotes just 85 words to it in an article of 2,047 words; the Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians gives it 15 words in an article of 701 words. The Times obituary gives the US tour 55 words out of a total of 1,789. Even the New York Times, which naturally has a certain local focus, gives the American tour only 594 words in its 3,000-word obituary.

It would be best, in my judgment, to move the whole section to a separate article, and boil the details of the tour down to a maximum of 300 words for the main Lind article. Happy to have a go if there is a consensus on this. Tim riley (talk) 05:53, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

That seems sensible, although it would be fine with me if you ran over your 300-word target, assuming that the rest of the article will be gradually expanded. All the best! -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:12, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Tim riley that the length of the section warrants its own article. I agree that he should go ahead with this if he's happy to do so. Jack1956 (talk) 06:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Now done. Please dive in and edit the new spin-off article and/or the condensed section of the main article. Tim riley (talk) 20:07, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I gave it a once thru. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:49, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Images

There was an earlier exhange (above) to the effect that there were too many images. I wonder if any editors share my view that the two mug-shots "Last images of Lind before coming to America in 1850" clutter up the page to little effect and could with advantage be removed? And could we prune the very long captions of the lead picture and the one in the Early life section? Grateful for comments. Tim riley (talk) 08:07, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree on both points. Suggestions for the captions:

1. First U.S. Daguerreotype of Lind, 14 September 1850, Mathew Brady Studio, New York City
2. Daguerreotype of Lind, c. September 1850, New York City
3. The Grand Opening at New York's Castle Garden on 11 September 1850, lithograph by Nathaniel Currier

Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:26, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, but the first caption should mention that her friend took the image. As for the Castle Garden image, I like the caption that you used in the American tour article.. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:43, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Reference problems

Footnote 3 references "Rogers", but the full cite seems to have been dropped out. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:43, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Fixed.

There is a ref to "Mercer-Taylor", but the full cite is missing. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:08, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:19, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Date of birth

Do other editors think the footnote about d.o.b. is worth keeping? I relegated it to a footnote from the main text, but as it is uncited I am inclined to blitz it. Grateful for views. Tim riley (talk) 21:06, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

If you think it is dubious (that is, if none of the major sources discuss this), I would agree that it should be removed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)