Talk:Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller

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I added a few extra facts but essentially left this page alone, thinking it provided a succinct summary of a musically important writing team.--User:Daivd91

That is okay with me. You're dismissed!--OleMurder 23:13, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Spelling and pronunciation[edit]

Which spelling is correct: "Leiber" or "Lieber"? Both appear. Is it pronounced LYE-ber or LEE-ber?

"Leiber" is the correct spelling, and his name is pronounced LEE-ber. Laura Pinto 00:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
fwiw - both leiber and lieber are german words, leiber is pronounced lye-ber, lieber is pronounced lee-ber (leib=body, lieb=nice, cute). getting the ie/ei spelling right seems to be close to impossible to english speakers. Snottily 21:02, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to clarify, while Snottily may be correct about German pronunciation, Laura Pinto is, regardless, correct about both the spelling and pronunciation of Jerry Leiber's name. Pstoller (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Should there be two articles? - discuss[edit]

As WP has expanded, it's become increasingly unusual to have a single biographical article covering two unrelated individuals. Should there be two articles - one on Leiber and one on Stoller? On the other hand, have either of them demonstrated sufficient notability in their separate work as individuals? I'm not proposing an answer, just raising it for discussion. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  • You have a point there. I think they always have worked together. Since redirect leading people to this site has taken care of the problem. Will check materials they have sent me. Maybe there should be an expansion of their lives for each one. Ucla90024 (talk) 16:34, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
    • Leiber & Stoller have done almost all of their work together. Each has written a small number of songs without the the other, with only a very few (e.g., "Spanish Harlem," "Jackson," "Down Home Girl") having any notable success…and the first recordings of those songs were produced by Leiber & Stoller as a team. As of now, they are approaching their 60th year as partners; the rarity of such a long partnership accounts for the rarity of such an entry on Wikipedia. Although they are very distinct as people, I believe that it doesn't make much sense to discuss them independently in Wikipedia, since only the personal biographical info would differ and nearly everything about their accomplishments would be redundant.Pstoller (talk) 00:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I was startled to come across a joint bio page, but on reflection, it makes perfect sense if I think of it as a page about the songwriting team rather than a biography of its members as individuals. That interpretation might come more naturally with some restructuring -- reword the introductory sentence, change subsequent sections to make personal background on each individual more distinct from the description of their accomplishments as a songwriting team... This doesn't seem like a new problem; there are plenty of articles out there on bands whose members aren't notable except as members of the band, and format could be borrowed from those articles. If I don't see any objections, I may proceed with some modifications along these lines in the next few days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:01, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Examples: Ashford & Simpson, Category:Musical duos, Leo and Diane Dillon, and Category:Married couples. We can have an article about famous duos, as well as articles about them separately. these two have little notability separately i believe.(mercurywoodrose) (talk) 23:13, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

"Defining songs" is not enough[edit]

There should be available on Wikipedia somewhere an entire, complete list of all the songs they wrote. Kingturtle (talk) 16:51, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I have added a link to Leiber & Stoller's official website. The site includes a discography that lists not only every song written by Leiber and/or Stoller, but also every recording of those songs known to Leiber & Stoller. Hopefully, that will be satisfactory.Pstoller (talk) 03:32, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Nature of the collaboration?[edit]

It's ridiculous that these Wikipedia articles about famous songwriting teams don't immediately and clearly--a fortiori at all--state the nature of the collaboration. Did one of the two write lyrics and the other write music? If so, which? Did both contribute to lyrics and music? TheScotch (talk) 07:33, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Fixed in line 1. Pstoller (talk) 04:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Two articles[edit]

Although there would be a lot of overlap, I do think each of these guys is notable enough for his own article. Besides, as of today it is subject to the policy on Biographies of One Living and One Non-Living Persons. Neutron (talk) 02:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I withdraw my statement above that the two are not notable separately. i dont know this, am not a music scholar, and suspect they should have separate articles, as well as this article on the duo. same goes for Ashford & Simpson, with Ashford passing on today as well. each name should probably have a separate article, and then a third, larger article for each duo.(mercurywoodrose) (talk) 07:31, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
This was discussed in 2008/09 (see above), with the consensus at that time being that they were not notable as individuals - interestingly, a view supported by User:Pstoller who (we assume) is a family member. However, we have now moved on, Jerry Leiber has sadly died, and I think that both of them clearly already have notability, irrespective of what Mike Stoller now does. Leiber, for example, co-wrote "Spanish Harlem" with Phil Spector rather than Stoller. But, if we do have separate articles, there would clearly be a very great deal of overlap between them. I can see a case for an article about the Leiber-Stoller songwriting team, supplemented by separate articles on each of them as individuals, as (mercurywoodrose) suggests above. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Would support two articles. We now have the one article in Category 1933 births (as they both were) but nothing in 2011 deaths, as one of them isn't. An odd situation.--Egghead06 (talk) 11:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
The way forward might be to draw on the Jerry Leiber obituaries as they emerge, to prepare a new article on him, which also draws on information in this article. For consistency, we should also then consider a separate article on Mike Stoller, leaving this article to focus solely on their work together. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:26, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
So now we are talking about three articles? I can see the logic and don't really object to it, though then there are going to be three overlapping articles instead of two. But if we are going to have separate articles on Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, and this article is going to be strictly about the songwriting team, maybe this article should be renamed to Leiber and Stoller, without their first names. (All three of those pages are currently redirects to this article.) That is how their songwriting partnership is most commonly known. As a precedent, see Lennon–McCartney, an article about the songwriting team, as opposed to the articles on the two individual members. Neutron (talk) 22:56, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
That's right. But I'm certainly not rushing into creating any new articles - if the Leiber obits and subsequent commentaries present substantial new (to WP) info about him, specifically, then we should move to creating a new article about him, and other changes should flow naturally from that. There should of course be minimum overlap - the Leiber article would indicate that the main article about his partnership with Stoller would be this one, but it would cover other points not related to the partnership - early life, working with other songwriters, etc. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
As suggested above, I am a family member, and also VP of Leiber/Stoller Productions. So, take that for what it's worth, plus and minus. At this point, three articles would make more sense than while both were alive. At first, there would be considerable overlap, but Mike Stoller is in good health and still writing, so his bio would change over time. Still, if the relatively small number of individual accomplishments were included in this page on a 61-year partnership, I don't see how that violates the spirit of WP's approach to biographies, even if it conflicts with the letter. In any case, I'll be a fact-check watchdog for however many pages there are. I shudder to think how many errors have been cited from poorly-researched obituaries in the last two days. So far, I've seen Jerry credited with writing "Stuck In The Middle With You" and "Chapel of Love," Jerry placed with Mike on the Andrea Doria, and in one article I was even cited as his partner instead of Mike Stoller. So, just because somebody printed it somewhere doesn't mean it belongs in Wikipedia. Pstoller (talk) 00:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
@Pstoller: Thanks for your input here, it's greatly appreciated. In my view, we should collate and incorporate any new information as it emerges, and keep the question of separate articles under review here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:49, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Three articles are the best and do not have to overlap that much. Ucla90024 (talk) 19:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

"Definitive songs"[edit]

That section of the article is unreferenced - that is, there is no mention of who or what organisation has credited that particular list as "definitive". We now have List of songs written by Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, which lists all those songs that made the US pop, R&B and UK pop charts. Should the list in this article now be retained as it is, or should we attempt to be more specific as to what songs are "definitive", for instance by referring to chart placings such as No.1 hits, or top ten hits? Any thoughts? Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:50, 21 August 2014 (UTC)