Talk:Jerusalem

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[edit] Kendraa

She is in history right now! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.128.202.82 (talk) 17:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

So? 192.12.88.7 (talk) 07:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] RFC: Jerusalem as the capital of Israel

Should we highlight the disputed nature of Jerusalem when stating that it is the capital of Israel? like saying that "Jerusalem is the disputed capital of Israel" or "Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital of Israel"? Imad marie (talk) 20:11, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Yes Jerusalem has a unique case like no other capital. East Jerusalem is occupied by Israel which caused all countries in the world to place their embassies outside of Jerusalem and to dispute the fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Imad marie (talk) 20:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
    • It is the official policy of the US that Jerusalem is, and should be, the capital of the State of Israel. The stated reason the US hasn't moved its capital to Jerusalem is out of "safety concerns". -shirulashem(talk) 00:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
      • Slightly more complicated than that. "Section 214, concerning Jerusalem, impermissibly interferes with the President's constitutional authority to conduct the Nation's foreign affairs and to supervise the unitary executive branch. Moreover, the purported direction in section 214 would, if construed as mandatory rather than advisory, impermissibly interfere with the President's constitutional authority to formulate the position of the United States, speak for the Nation in international affairs, and determine the terms on which recognition is given to foreign states. U.S. policy regarding Jerusalem has not changed" in a statement saying that the provisions of the law stating that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel are "advisory" only and refusing to implement them in relocating the embassy. nableezy - 00:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • (adding Yes) and Comment: Just a comment that to me the issue at hand is more the following: Both Palestine and Israel claim Jerusalem as their capital city. Neither claim is recognized by the international community. Should we note the lack of international recognition for both by prefacing "capital" with "proclaimed", or should we simply state that Jerusalem is the capital for both, without using any qualifiers? Tiamuttalk 20:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Um... okay, except you're missing one minor, little detail: Israel is a country and Palestine is not. -- tariqabjotu 09:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
      • That's your opinion Tariq, to which you are of course entitled. But we don't write based on your opinion. Read State of Palestine. Most of the world disagrees with you. Tiamuttalk 11:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
        • "The State of Palestine is a political entity that enjoys limited recognition as a state, but has no control over any territory." Right. As I said, Israel is a country and Palestine is not. Or, if you want me to tear down your false equivalence another way, I could say that Israel has its governmental buildings in Jerusalem and "Palestine" -- whatever you want to call it -- does not. I could say that Israel has control over the city and "Palestine" -- whatever you want to call it -- does not. Even if you just want to talk about clearly legal control, I could say Israel has long had legal control over the western half of the city, while "Palestine" -- whatever you want to call it -- has never had legal control over so much as a square meter of the city. Please don't taunt me with "opinion" when you choose to ignore obvious differences to support this tired position. -- tariqabjotu 11:59, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
            • I'm aware of what the article says since I wrote most of it myself. You can be selective in your interpretation if you want to of course. It doesn't change the fact that Palestine is recognized as country by more than half the world.
            • In any case, none of this has much to do with the issue under discussion. As Avi says, whether or not Palestine is a country is irrelevant. It has designated Jerusalem as its capital and that fact should be noted prominently in our introduction to the article on Jerusalem. Tiamuttalk 12:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
              • You ignored everything I said. First, I said several times that it didn't matter whether Palestine was a country or not; my entire comment was about how the comparison is still false even if you want to call Palestine a country (even though country involves land; state does not). Your point appears to be that because both Israel and Palestine call Jerusalem their capital, either Jerusalem is the capital of both -- with no qualifier -- or the "proclaimed" capital of both (with the qualifier). I explained why those are not the only two options, and you failed to rebut. This issue is already "explained prominently in our introduction"; in case you haven't noticed, there's an entire paragraph on the issue. -- tariqabjotu 12:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
                  • I'm intimately aware of what's in the intro and aware of what your argument is. I've stated elsewhere that descriptions of Jerusalem as the capital of both Israel and Palestine preface both with the word "claims". I've provided sources to support that that assertion. If you prefer to engage in OR argumentation over how one is an apple and one is an orange, that's fine. Your refusal to acknowledge the sources is noted. Tiamuttalk 12:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
                    • You have provided no sources in this thread between your initial statement and my current comment. There are a host of other threads and sub-threads here and elsewhere across Wikipedia on which you have said things not addressed to me and I have not responded. If you want to hold one or more of those threads against me, fine. I'm not here to play games with you, especially when I have witnessed the inevitability of their futility. -- tariqabjotu 13:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
                      • Very well Tariq. Always a pleasure attempting to collaborate with you. Tiamuttalk 13:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No There exists a territorial State of Israel which has Jerusalem as its capital; the physical locations of embassies is irrelevant. What makes the case different with the State of Palestine is as the article says: "The State of Palestine…is a political entity that enjoys limited recognition as a state, but has no control over any territory." If there is no control over territory, there is perforce no control over a territorial or terrestrial capital. It can be said that Palestine claims Jerusalem as its capital, as the claim can be made in anticipation of "control on the ground". Israel has control on the ground, and this article needs to reflect the reality of Israel's statements and her political and governmental seats of power. What this article should say is what it already does say, that Jerusalem is Israel's capital, and that this is not recognized by many. -- Avi (talk) 20:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
    • But Avi, doesn't this article also need to reflect Palestine's statements and her people's presence on the ground? Doesn't it also have to reflect the will of the international community which has withheld recognition for both claims until negotiations between the two result in agreement? Tiamuttalk 20:28, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
      • Tiamut, I believe it does by saying that it is claimed as the capital of the State of Palestine; which is true. It is claimed as the capital, and as soon as there is a terrestrial State of Palestine with a seat of government in the physical city of Jerusalem, the "claim" phrase may be removed. While it may be unfortunate in many people's eyes, I think it is accurate to say that there is no physical state of Palestine yet, and thus, in my understanding, cannot have an actual capital but may designate its capital. Perhaps that is a better way to say it, that "The State of Palestine has designated Jerusalem as its capital." -- Avi (talk) 21:12, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
    • And Avi a question ... when you said "this version" which version. The one Okedem restored [1] or the one that was built today to address these issues? Tiamuttalk 20:47, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
      • I was referring to the version that has "claim" by Palestine, no "claim" by Israel, and the explanation in footnote iii, but I think the "designate" wording (see above) is better than "claim". -- Avi (talk) 21:12, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
        • So basically the version Nableezy had restored [2] but with the sentence on Palestine reading as you proposed above? Good with me. Though I still think "proclaimed" should precede "capital" for Israel, given how the sources describe it. Tiamuttalk 21:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
      • See below for my response to Nableezy for a more expansive explanation of my opinions, for what they are worth. -- Avi (talk) 21:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No, because it factually false - it is the capital, per definition. See above - claim is irrelevant, international opinion and embassies are irrelevant. Look up the meaning of the word "capital". The international community has no say in this, only the facts, whether some people like it or not. okedem (talk) 20:30, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes, but neither of the suggestions in the RfC question. It should say "capital of Israel" but the footnote should be brought up immediately after that statement within the main text. It likewise should say capital of Palestine as that is the proclaimed capital of the state of Palestine. It should also note that the status as capital of Palestine has likewise not achieved recognition from other states. nableezy - 20:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
That's just another way of highlighting the disputed nature. Which I support. Imad marie (talk) 20:43, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Me too. By the way, Okedem just blanket reverted to what he claims is the stable consensus version of this article. I would note that this version has been kept this way by refusing to acknowledge the dissent to it, and claiming consensus must be achieved prior to any changes. Invariably leading to a lockdown of the article in this version or something close to it. Tiamuttalk 20:47, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Tiamut, in the discussion above you've shown you care nothing for sources, facts, or basically anything that doesn't fit your view that international recognition has anything to do with status of capital. Here you continue that tradition with your despicable accusation against myself. I've reverted to the stable version. It's been that way for many months, because there's no consensus to change it, as your claims are never backed by the facts. okedem (talk) 20:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Tiamut brought sources, which you casually dismissed with an edit summary of "no such state exists" contrary to sources saying it does. nableezy - 20:58, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
(Came to this via RfC) May I remind everyone that Palestine is indeed recognized as an independent state by various other countries in the world. That should basically settle the issue here. Seb az86556 (talk) 21:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
But it has no control of any territory, so it is hard to have a capital when there is nowhere for it to be. This is why I prefer "designated", for which terrestrial control is irrelevant. -- Avi (talk) 21:15, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Recognized, but doesn't actually exists. Even the PNA PM said it will be established in the future. But, again, that's beside the point here. A capital is a seat of government, as any dictionary will tell you. A capital isn't one because of claims or international opinion - those mean nothing in this regard. It's a capital because it's home to the nation government. That holds for Israel, but not for a "Palestinian State" . okedem (talk) 21:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Avi, do you have a problem with how it was worded prior to okedem's revert (besides perhaps changing "proclaimed" to "designated")? See here. nableezy - 21:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I need to preface with acknowledgment that I personally am biased, but I believe that is true of all of us. As a neutral statement of fact, I think all of us must agree that the government of the State of Palestine (which I believe is still the PLO?) has designated or proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital, so I think it is proper to make note of that. I prefer "designate" to "claim" or "proclaim", but that is because I think it is the most neutral of the three. The nicety in using "designate", in my opinion, is that it work regardless of the reader's opinions as to the nature of the state of Palestine. For those who believe that there is no legal basis for the State of Palestine, and it is all words, well, the designation is more words. I can designate myself as Supreme Generalissimo of the United States; it's not going to to do a lot of good. And for those who believe that the state is as real and actual as Jordan, well, Jordan has designated its capital as Amman, and so it is. For those who believe that the legal standing remains nebulous and pending clarification and diplomatic actions on the part of Palestinian and Israelis, the designation is the government of Palestine's statement of intent at this time as to where it will physically locate its seat. I think that it would be a breach of neutrality not to recognize the Palestinian designation, just as it would be to tacitly assign it control over territory it does not control now and which may likely be subject to future negotiations. I know it was an overly long response, Nableezy, but I wanted to explain why I think the article should mention it, but recognize that it is a designation and not an actuality, at this point. Hopefully, in the near future, all these issues will be resolved. -- Avi (talk) 21:35, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Ditto on your first sentence and much of what follows it. Designate is fine with me. What I'm more concerned with is how the first sentence of the article says two very strongly disputed things in Wikipedia's netural voice with no qualificatons. 1) that Jerusalem is the largest city in Israel (some say a large part of it is not in Israel) and 2) that it is Israel's capital. With no mention of the dispute over its status as such or the lack of international recognition, etc, etc. Perhaps we could use "designate" for Israel too? And then mention both claims are disputed? Tiamuttalk 22:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Forgive me for answering #2 prior to #1, but I do not believe that is an issue. Israel's capital is Jerusalem; others do not like that. Others cannot make Jerusalem NOT Israel's capital any more than they can prevent the State of Palestine from designating Jerusalem as its capital. In the article, there is a note directly on that phrase which discusses how there are others who neither approve nor recognize Israel's decision. I'm sure there are those who do neither recognize nor approve that the State of Palestine has designated Jerusalem as its capital. That too is irrelevant. The reason I feel the wording should be different is that currently, there is no physical State of Palestine which has control over actual territory. When that situation changes, then this article should change as well. As for #1, a number of possible explanations justifying the current wording come to mind, but they may not be acceptable to all. Firstly, one can say the city now is in Israel; that may change in the future. Secondly, it is under Israeli control. Thirdly, even if we were to excise the portions that are disputed, I believe it remains the largest city in Israel. Thus, regardless of one's personal political beliefs, I think the sentence may be justified as it is. Thoughts, Tiamut? -- Avi (talk) 22:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Just a point of fact, Jerusalem's 2007 population minus the 2006 population of East Jerusalem (per the articles on each) would be 319,296, which is 18% smaller than the population of Tel Aviv. nableezy - 06:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Avi, I dont think it is irrelevant that that others neither approve nor recognize Israel's decision, but I agree that it doesn't make Jerusalem not Israel's capital. The dispute over the words "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" shouldn't be relegated to a footnote. What would be the problem with moving what the footnote says up in to the main text without adding "designated" or "claimed"? It would be clear that the seat of government of Israel is in Jerusalem and that much of the world disputes that they have the right to do so. No implications that Jerusalem really is not the capital of Israel, only making it clear that there is a dispute over its status. nableezy - 22:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
For personal reasons I would not, just as I guess for personal reason you would Face-blush.svg. I unfortunately don't have the time now to give your question the attention it deserves, Nableezy. I hope to come back to it soon, though. -- Avi (talk) 23:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
After thinking about it, it boils down to the perception of how neutral it is. As Okedem, Tariq, and perhaps others point out, the dispute is prominently discussed multiple times in the article. To add it yet again, or to make it even more prominent is the question, and making it too prominent may well be an NPOV issue as well. Again, I freely admit I have my own point-of-view which I know is coloring my instinctual response, which is that it is adequately discussed in the article and that making it more prominent may be an issue given the current status of the State of Palestine. I think this point will have to be decided by a consensus of editors, and I would feel more comfortable without further expansion, just as I am sure you feel the opposite, and understandably so. Hopefully, we will get feedback from people with less emotional involvement than we have, and can arrive at an understanding. As an aside, I note that an IP added the country box to State of Palestine which may be a problem, as there is no Country of Palestine yet. -- Avi (talk) 14:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
The dispute over the legality of the annexation of East Jerusalem is discussed, but as far as I can tell the only place where the views of others on the making of Jerusalem the capital is not discussed anywhere but the footnote. nableezy - 18:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes: NPOV dictates that its disputed status be mentioned. As such, the case is not unique. We write extensively about these disputes in the articles for Abkhazia, Northern Cyprus, Somaliland, and others. Seb az86556 (talk) 21:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No: Jerusalem was the capital of Israel since 1948. It remains the capital today. The fact that Israel captured East Jerusalem from Jordan during the 1967 war has as much to do with Jerusalem's status as capital as Israel's capture of the Golan Heights or the Sinai or the Gaza Strip. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel despite any injustices Israel may or may not have committed against Palestinians. Reference books that explicitly denote Jerusalem as the capital of Israel include The World Almanac and Book of Facts 2007 (p. 785), The Statesman's Yearbook (2005 ed., p. 939), TIME Almanac 2005 with Information Please (p. 797), The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions (p. 285), The World Book Encyclopedia (Vol. 11, p. 94a), Atlas of World Geography (Rand McNally: 2000, p. 44), Webster's New Explorer Desk Encyclopedia (2003 ed., p. 628), and Britanica Online Encyclopedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by GHcool (talk • contribs) 18:02, August 3, 2009
    • This encyclopedia on the UN says: "Jerusalem: Historic capital of Palestine [...] On 23 January 1950 Israel proclaimed Jerusalem the capital of Israel, but this was not recognized by the UN. In November 1999 the Israeli representative in the General Assembly reiterated that Jerusalem was the capital." Note that any mention of Jerusalem being Israel's capital is attributed to an Israeli speaker or preceded by the qualifier "proclaimed". Just like this CNN article which notes that, "By most estimates, the growth of the Palestinian population of Jerusalem outstrips that of the Israelis, and no Palestinian faction would ever advocate relinquishing the Palestinian claims to East Jerusalem. And even Israel's claim that Jerusalem is its capital is one most countries around the world don't recognize." Very few reliable sources say it is the capital without qualifications and if they do, its immediately followed by a discussion of its disputed status in the eyes of the international community. Our article fails on both counts. Tiamuttalk 22:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
      • A false analogy. The difference is that while the encyclopedia on the UN must detail Jerusalem's status from the UN's point of view, a general encyclopedia like the ones I gave above and like Wikipedia must give Jerusalem's status as an NPOV statement of the fact: that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. --GHcool (talk) 22:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
      • Tiamut, I think it is fair to say that the UN is not without bias in this situation, and may not be the best source for an NPOV statement. -- Avi (talk) 23:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
        • Avi, I think it's fair to say that NPOV does not require NPOV statements from every source, but rather that we reflect all significant POVs. The UN's POV is very significant.
        • Further, CNN, which has a pro-Israeli bias, also precedes any mention of Jerusalem as Israel's capital by the word "claim" and does the same for Palestinian claims. That's what I am proposing: i.e. being even-handed and reflecting the lack of recognition by the world of either claim. Tiamuttalk 08:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
          • CNN is not pro-Israeli, but forget that now. You want to write it as if the two claims are equal. But they're not. Israel controls Jerusalem, and the city functions as the state's capital - home to all its governmental bodies. The Palestinian entity of questionable existence controls no territory at all, so obviously not Jerusalem, and has no governmental bodies in the city (or much of them anywhere). That's not remotely similar.
          • And again I say - the dispute and the Palestinian aspirations are discussed in an entire paragraph in the lead, and in the article body. That's more than enough. okedem (talk) 09:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
              • The two claims are equal. That's why the world community has not recognized either one of them. That Israel controls Jerusalem is a function of its greater military power and its forcible shutting down of Palestinian institutions in Jerusalem like Orient House.
              • And while it is your opinion is that the dispute and Palestinian aspirations are discussed sufficiently, a significant number of editors and sources cited here disagree with you. Many have come to this talk page time and again to ask how it is that we present Jerusalem as Israel's capital without any qualifications. The article is not NPOV and will not be NPOV until these issues are addressed. Continually stonewalling people who bring up the critiques, or characterizing them as though they are beating a dead horse, won't help to improve the article, and it won't stop the critiques from coming. Tiamuttalk 11:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
                • The two claims are equal? That's absurd. Open a dictionary/encyclopedia, and read what a capital is. Perhaps you'd like to say that the moral claim is equal, or the legal basis is equal, or some such thing. But in reality - it's the capital of Israel, and only Israel.
                • This article, I remind you, is not about international opinion, the conflict, Palestinian claim, or any such thing. It is about the city itself, and while international opinion is of some interest, it cannot take up half the lead. There's more to Jerusalem than the conflict, you know. You can't turn every article into a flier against Israel and for Palestinian causes. An entire paragraph in the lead, plus text in the article body, in more than enough (and was also a compromise - I support much less text on this issue). okedem (talk) 14:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
                  • As I said before, we don't write wiki articles by looking up the definition of words and engaging in OR to decide whether they apply to a given situation or not. Reliable sources indicate that Israel's claim to Jerusalem is disputed by the entire world. Same goes for Palestine. Our article begins with the sentence: "Jerusalem is the capital and largest city in Israel." Wrong on both counts: No government recognizes it as Israel's capital and if defined to include East Jerusalem (as it is in our article), its not all located in Israel. The attempts to force other editors into accepting this as some kind of reasonable consensus by refusing to concede what the reliable sources say is the reason this issue keeps coming up and the reason this article cannot maintain FA status. Its not NPOV and its not right. Tiamuttalk 15:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
                    • As I've said before, and you fail to refute - international recognition doesn't determine or change the status of capitals. A country can withhold recognition as it pleases, to express its discontent with actions, or its belief that things should be changed. But it cannot change to most basic thing - Jerusalem answers the definition of capital for Israel, and not for any other country/state/entity. If the article would say: "Jerusalem is Israel's internationally recognized and celebrated capital", it would be wrong. But "capital" is merely statement of fact, and nothing more. Perhaps it should be the capital. Perhaps Israel doesn't have a right to it; perhaps it's illegal or whatever. But we're not discussing the legality of it - just what it is. Like or not (this goes for you, and basically for any of the planet countries) - Jerusalem is Israel's capital, because Israel's government sits there. No OR here. Just a simple dictionary definition, that doesn't have qualifiers, doesn't have complicated criteria or different viewpoint. The most basic thing - we're writing an encyclopedia here - when we don't know if a certain word is appropriate, we find its accurate meaning, and see if it fits. In this case - it does.
                    • As you've provided no source saying international recognition has anything to do with capital, that claim shall henceforth be designated (or, perhaps, proclaimed) a "red herring". okedem (talk) 16:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No Fipplet (talk) 23:07, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No - per Avi. What this article should say is what it already does say, that Jerusalem is Israel's capital, and that this is not recognized by many. LoverOfTheRussianQueen (talk) 23:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Sorry, but that's not exactly what Avi said. He said we should mention that it is the designated capital of Palestine too in the introduction directly under the statement about it being Israel's capital. Where he and I disagree is only on the need to qualify the statement regarding it being the capital of Israel. I think it should be prefaced by "designated" or "proclaimed" or alternatively that the lack of international recognition be mentioned directly after an unqualified statement. Whereas he thinks its okay to leave that part as it is. But we both agree that Palestine's designation of Jerusalem as its capital should be mentioned. Which currrently it is not, due to Okedem reverting it out. Tiamuttalk 11:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
      • The RfC says 'Should we highlight the disputed nature of Jerusalem when stating that it is the capital of Israel? like saying that "Jerusalem is the disputed capital of Israel" or "Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital of Israel"? - to which I answered no, as did Avi. I realize this whole rfC is merely a ploy by you to promote the notion that it is also the capital of the 'State of Palestine', but you will need to start an explicit RfC about that. LoverOfTheRussianQueen (talk) 14:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No but I don't see anything wrong with stating somewhere in the body that the status is disputed. Having it prominent, or in the lede, is disingenuous. -shirulashem(talk) 00:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No per User:Avi and because sovereign states have the right to designate a capital city.Historicist (talk) 00:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes per nableezy. Yazan (talk) 05:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment - Let me remind everyone that the issue of the dispute regarding Jerusalem's status is not swept under the rug. In fact, an entire paragraph in the lead, one out of only three, is dedicated to it, stating it is a "core issue" of the conflict, that "Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem has been repeatedly condemned by the United Nations and related bodies". That "Arab Palestinians foresee East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state", and that the embassies were moved out after UNSC 478. No one can rightfully claim this issue doesn't get its due weight. Anything beyond this is simply overkill. This isn't an article about the conflict, but about the city. One in three paragraphs in the lead is more than enough. okedem (talk) 06:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No Leave the dead horse alone. The capital issue is discussed several times already -- in a footnote when the capital of Israel is mentioned the first time, within the body of the lead as a whole paragraph, and then later on in excruciating detail under the Political status section. The point has been made, and does not need to been made for a second third fourth time. There currently is no Palestinian state so the idea of saying that Jersualem is the proclaimed capital of Israel (a country that has had its central government functions in the city since basically its existence) and the proclaimed capital of Palestine (a geographical region, not a country, with no governmental facilities in Jerusalem) is a non-starter. The way to deal with the Palestinian capital issue is the way it's already been handled in the third paragraph of the lead -- mention that the Palestinians, when they get a state (something they do not currently have), they would like to have their capital on at least the eastern half of the city. The idea that Jerusalem is the "proclaimed" capital of Israel is meaningless, because it's not just "proclaimed" as such; it is, and has always, functioned as such. In short, Jerusalem is, in fact, the capital of Israel. The fact that it is "disputed" is a point that can at the very least wait until the third paragraph, when it can be explained in a manner that is informative, rather than misleadingly pithy for the sake of advancing a point that has zero relavence to whether a city is a country's capital. -- tariqabjotu 09:00, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No: Wikipedia should not be rewriting history and bending over backwards to accommodate the falsehoods that certain editors are trying to introduce through the back door, presumptuously claiming that they speak for "the world." --Gilabrand (talk) 09:27, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No: Jerusalem is Israel's capital as a fact and according to Israel's law that is the only one relevant here. Other claims should be indicated also but not on the same level of importance. Benjil (talk) 11:27, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No: Countries can self-declare Capital Cities, and indeed occassionally break-away seperate countries and Wikipedia has usually recognized their right to do so. See List_of_national_capitals where both Somaliland and Jerusalem are acknowledged. The article should note Jersulem as Capital City of Israel (as this is what Israel chooses to describe it as; similarly I could call myself Mr Wibble and I'd expect people to use that), however it would be appropriate to have a section on Disputed Status. --Truthmonkey (talk) 11:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No per GHcool and Avi. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:42, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
More sources:
CIA factbook 2008: "Jerusalem (capital, proclaimed): Israel, West Bank"
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict: "In 1980 The Basic Law of Israel declared Jerusalem a 'complete and united capital' of the Israeli state, but most of the international community had recognized a UN resolution that declares such an act 'null and void' [...] Palestinians of Jerusalem [...] declined the opportunity to acquire Israeli citizenship [...] The political point in refusing Israeli citizenship was also apparent: maintaining the right to be citizens in the state of Palestine with Jerusalem as its capital." Tiamuttalk 13:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
    • We understand, thank you. There are neutral, reliable sources that say 'proclaimed' before 'capital of Israel' and there are neutral, reliable sources that don't say 'proclaimed' or 'disputed' before 'capital of Israel'. This is well-established. The question is in which bucket are we going to put Wikipedia: the former or the latter? Longstanding consensus, and the one that seems to still exist here, is that we're going to put it in the latter -- the one that leaves out "proclaimed" or "disputed". Perfectly good reasons have been provided for why those words should be omitted, and there are neutral, reliable sources suggesting it's perfectly fine to come down with that conclusion. So, you can stop providing sources now; there are probably hundreds of sources that deal with the matter in either way. Point understood. -- tariqabjotu 13:33, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No I am getting a sense of déjà vu here. I recall participating in this discussion last year, and it was not the first one. or second. No serious new evidence has been produced, so I don't see a reason to change the current compromise. -- Nudve (talk) 14:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps the issue continually keeps arising because the "current compromise" is not much of one. Tiamuttalk 15:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps some people have a problem accepting what seems to be a pretty wide consensus. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps some have trouble understanding what WP:CONSENSUS means. It doesn't mean majority rule, it means reaching a near unanimous agreement. Of which there is none here.Tiamuttalk 17:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No—this has been discussed dozens of times on Wikipedia, and the answer is still the same. Everything I could say about this has already been said, and also repeated here. Basically if a country has control over a territory that it declares its capital, and this becomes the country's seat of government, other countries' opinions do not change this status. The international dispute should be duly represented where there is space to do so (and where it is relevant), but in places like infoboxes and lead section, such space does not exist, and it's not relevant. The compromise, which seems fair to me, is to make do with a footnote. —Ynhockey (Talk) 00:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No—How can one even answer the original question exactly as posed; it is a loaded question. In asking "Should we highlight the disputed nature of Jerusalem when stating that it is the capital of Israel?" the question presupposes something unproven. Like it or not, Jerusalem is the chosen capital of Israel, functions as the capital and is the capital by definition of what a capital is (seat of government, etc.); that much is beyond dispute, or should be. International recognition plays no part in determining its status, nor is it a matter of opinion. The nature of Jerusalem as capital needs no modifying adjective, though to some it is clearly unpalatable. I predict that this discussion will go nowhere if it focuses on such red herring issues as international opinion, embassies, and "representing points of view". These discussions are indeed getting repetitious, and "the answer is still the same". I would be in favor of adding a line to endnote iii clarifying that countries choose their own capitals, with no requirement for either embassies or international approval. Other than that, let's keep the status quo. Hertz1888 (talk) 02:08, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The disputes surrounding that are significant and require discussion in the article, but no additional language needs to be added to that very clear sentence, which is a statement of current fact. IceCreamEmpress (talk) 16:05, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
  • No - per numerous comments, above. Jerusalem is the Capital, per that word's definition, and the dispute surrounding the recognition is already described in detail in the article (to the point of WP:UNDUE, in my opinion) Mr. Hicks The III (talk) 01:45, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Related discussion

Comment for Tiamut. I believe that part of the issue is the difference in focus as to what makes a capital. What I mean is that you refer to the non-recognition of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital by multiple countries. That is absolutely true. However, that does not affect Jerusalem's status as Israel's capital - it affects the ACCEPTANCE of Jerusalem as Israel's capital by other countries. And that point is clearly stated in the article. Jerusalem is not accepted as the Palestinian capital by other countries for similar reasons. I maintain that the operative difference between the State of Palestine and Israel is that the latter is a physical country with territory while the former remains a non-physical entity at this time. Countries have capitals, ideas, no matter how good they may be, do not have capitals. As soon as the State of Palestine becomes sovereign over territory, it can consider some of that territory its capital, and then there is no longer any distinction. So, while your comments about the recognition of Jerusalem by other entities is correct, I continue to respectfully maintain that it is not the relevant point for this discussion. As I see it, both Israel and the State of Palestine have designated Jerusalem as their respective capitals, and neither designation is accepted by many countries. The difference is that Israel's "capital designate" is its "capital real", as Israel controls, and is at least de facto, if not de jure, soverign, over the territory it claims as its capital, whereas the State of Palestine is not, at this time. -- Avi (talk) 16:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying Avi, but I have to respectfully disagree. When Jerusalem is defined as including East Jerusalem (and other parts of the West Bank) as it is here, to say that it is Israel's "capital real" is incorrect. I'm sure you are aware that all government offices are in West Jerusalem and that East Jerusalem (which contains the Old City) is predominantly Arab and Palestinian. Very few Israelis even enter Arab East Jerusalem (except for the 0.9 km2 that make up the Old City of course) and there is a separate system for health, emergency services, etc. Orient House functioned as the headquarters of the PLO for two decades (the PLO representing Palestine at the UN means that it essentially served as a Palestinian seat of government there). True, the building was seized and forcibly closed by Israel in 2001, but that does not change the fact that Arab East Jerusalem is not functionally a part of Israel's "capital real".
Our first sentence is the most problematic, because it presents Jerusalem as including East Jerusalem and on that basis defines it as Israel's largest city, even though most of the territory being described lies well within the West Bank and was illegally occupied in 1967. The idea that this is all made better by appending a footnote that explains that the international ommunity doesn't recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital is do indulge in an illusion. So many IPs come here and after reading the article ask why it says its ISrael's capital without any qualifications. Meaning, that most of them do not see the information you are saying is so prominently displayed.
I could go on, but I will stop for now. Tiamuttalk 16:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, at least one government office that I know of is - the Ministry of Justice (located, no less, in Salah ed Din street). As Orient House is no longer operational, it's a meaningless point, that we should waste more text on. okedem (talk) 17:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
More disinformation is being disseminated on this talk page: There is no "separate" system for health care in East Jerusalem. Arabs living in East Jerusalem can go to any hospital in the city, and receive services from Tipat Halav mother & child clinics and Kupat Holim HMOs. They are free to choose any facility they want, in West or East Jerusalem - and they do, unimpeded. --Gilabrand (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that's important. Both parts of the city are served by the same emergency services (Magen David Adom), the same bus company (Egged), etc. As East Jerusalem tells us, 41% of EJ's population are Jews (181,000 or so). okedem (talk) 07:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
You know, when users draw upon their personal knowledge and experience to characterize what others say as disinformation, its interesting, but irrelevant to establishing the facts. I already posted a source attesting to this situation above. Here it is again: "The main business section in West Jerusalem is almost entirely Jewish. The Old City, in East Jerusalem, is almost entirely Arab. Welfare policies in the two sections are handled differently. Each side maintains its own fire departments, hospitals, and medical emergency crews. Schools are entirely separate. Two different bus systems travel the city, often following the same routes. Jews try to avoid using Muslim-controlled electric companies, and Arabs try to avoid using Israeli-owned banks. New roads make it possible for Israeli in Jerusalem's suburbs to travel back and forth almost without seeing an Arab." (Daily Life in ancient and modern Jerusalem) Notice the chapter heading, "A Divided City"? Our article is trying to pretend there is one Jerusalem that includes east Jerusalem. This the Israeli desire yes, but it is not reality. Tiamuttalk 08:06, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
The fact that some obscure book says something does not make it true. Living in Jerusalem I know a little better than whoever Diane Slavik and Ray Webb may be. There is no separate health system, and as someone said almost half of "East-Jerusalem" population is Jewish. Furthermore, all is is totally irrelevant to the question. Please stop trying to divert the subject. This is a very transparent strategy. Benjil (talk) 08:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I prefer books to your opinion. That's in line with WP:V. Tiamuttalk 09:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
This is not my opinion. This is a fact. All the controversy comes from the fact you don't seem able to understand the difference between facts and opinions. I think we already discussed that to the death. And the vote is quite clear. So may we put an end to this argument ? Benjil (talk) 09:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I think we should let the discussion continue. There is no clear outcome here and this will remain an issue until it is addressed. We can address it now, or later, but it will have to be dealth with at some point. Tiamuttalk 10:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

This will remain an issue until it is addressed ... It will have to be dealt with at some point.

This is the problem. You will only consider this matter closed, "addressed", and "dealt with" when what you want gets put in the article. That's not how it works. We have had this conversation literally dozens of times over a period of years and nothing has changed. Realize that consensus can change, but it does not have to. Once again, we have, in this RfC alone (to say nothing of past conversations), a general consensus for keeping the status quo by a ratio of about three to one. You have been defeated again and again; now drop it. The matter has, in fact, been dealt with. -- tariqabjotu 10:33, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
This is not a WP:BATTLE Tariq. There is no "defeated" side here. WP:CONSENSUS relies on achieving near unanimity between editors acting in good-faith. If 1/3 of the editors participating in a discussion on a given issue continue to be dissatisfied with the text, then there is no consensus. And the issue will continue to be raised. That's only natural and in fact welcome since we are encouraged to continue discussing until consensus can be achieved. Sorry you don't like having to deal with this over and over again, but perhaps when you learn to respect the opinions of those who differ from your own, we will make more progress. Tiamuttalk 12:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, consensus is not unanimity. You might also want to keep in mind that filibustering is considered gaming the system. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 13:14, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Thank you; I am familiar with WP:BATTLE, which concerns civility, not the idea that's one's efforts can be defeated (as they can). And WP:CONSENSUS does not dictate that the same group of people should repeatedly bring up the same debate with nothing new to bring to the table; that, rather, is called being tendentious and, echoing No More Mr Nice Guy, gaming the system. There is nothing here to suggest I don't respect your opinion; disagreeing is not the same as not respecting your opinion. Respect, rather, is gracefully conceding when you're outnumbered; that's something the persistent supporters of this "disputed" wording have not done. So, let me put it this way: based on the discussion here, with three to one in favor of the status quo, your proposed changes are not going to be implemented anywhere in the forseeable future. So, there's really no reason for me to argue with you about this, especially when I know there's no possibility of changing your mind. -- tariqabjotu 13:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Tiamut, too bad you signed the above comment. We might have mistaken it for a Hamas press release. That you have no clue about the reality of life in Jerusalem is crystal clear. Two bus systems following the same routes??? Arabs and Jews "trying to avoid" each other's banks?? Muslim controlled electric companies??? Where do you dig up this stuff?.--Gilabrand (talk) 08:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
That you resort to characterizing a book and its contents as a Hamas press release only shows how little respect you have for WP:V and WP:NPOV. Tiamuttalk 09:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually, this bunch of nonsense you have cited comes from a children's book, which states it is geared for kids aged 9-13. Not everything you dig up on Google is a scholarly source that I have some obligation to respect. --Gilabrand (talk) 09:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I started with a children's book thinking it might be easier for you to understand. However, the same is said in scholarly sources. See Menachem Klein, for example. Tiamuttalk 10:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
And please note, There are four Palestinian hospitals in East Jerusalem, with 546 beds, that provide essential secondary services. These also service Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, when they are able to get permits to enter East Jerusalem. I'm not surprised that you don't know much about East Jerusalem, given that most Israelis never go there (outside of the Old City of course). Tiamuttalk 10:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually there are two bus systems. In the last years there has been a new private Arab bus system. It was an initiative of the City Hall. It does not follow the same routes at all and deserves only Arab neighborhoods. Benjil (talk) 09:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
How very considerate of you, my dear Tiamut. Except that you don't seem to understand what Mr. Klein is saying. He says everyone rides Egged buses (unless they need to go somewhere that is not served by Egged buses). So Arabs and Jews are free to use the same bus system, shop in the same malls, receive treatment at the same hospitals and clinics, hold accounts in the same banks, study at the same universities and enjoy outings to the same parks. Yes, there are separate school systems, but there are joint Jewish/Arab schools for anyone who is interested. No one ever said there are no Arab hospitals, buses, schools and banks. Certainly there are, but what you don't seem to understand is that Arab residents of Jerusalem have a choice, which they freely exercise. To say that no Israelis walk around on Salah e-Din is OR at best. When was the last time you were there, conducting street polls? Much remains to be done. Jerusalem is not conflict-free. But it is a far cry from the picture you are trying to paint, of "two cities," which is false, tendentious and misleading.--Gilabrand (talk) 11:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
I do understand what Klein is saying and its not what you describe above. You are free to soapbox as to what you think the reality is in Jerusalem, though I'd prefer you provide sources tht could be useful to improving this article. Tiamuttalk 12:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Side point: Moving up info about Palestinian capital

Considering the original question in the RfC is about adding the word 'disputed' or 'proclaimed' in front of "capital of Israel", I'm adding a side section on a point that has been brought up: should the piece on Palestinian claims on the capital (currently in the third paragraph of the intro) be moved up [cut/paste], repeated closer to the top [copy/paste], or remain where it is [nothing]? Note that I'm ignoring the "proclaimed" vs. "designated" debate; that debate is so minor compared to the other issues. -- tariqabjotu 13:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

  • I'm for Cut/Paste or Nothing. I would be okay with saying at the end of the first paragraph that Jerusalem is the proclaimed/designated capital of the Palestinian state provided most of the other info currently in the third paragraph is removed completely from the intro. That's because I believe bookending the intro with this point is simply excessive. Alternatively, I think the current location of this info -- in the third paragraph, where this can be discussed with a little more detail and clarity -- is fine and, in fact, probably better. -- tariqabjotu 13:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm for moving the info up. My edit was trying to do that. And for using the terminology suggested by Avi for the Palestinian claim. I'm not for removing the information in the third paragraph however. That further downplays the POV of the international community, which was a primary reason people were motivated to file this RfC. Its weak wording and relegation of the important details to a footnote is simply not enough. Tiamuttalk 13:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Actually, the lead is unbalanced - but against Israel

Some users don't seem to realize that the current state of affairs isn't the "pro-Israeli" user's dream, but a compromise position. You see, in the lead we mention a fact (that could be seen as Israel's side) in a single sentence: "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and its largest city...". Then we spend an entire paragraph talking about how disputed it is (also mentioning "disputed East Jerusalem" in that first sentence). We say it's a "core issue", talk about the condemnation of the annexation; embassies leaving; Palestinian aspirations. We never mention Israel's position here - I'm not talking about the simple fact of Jerusalem being the capital or its size; when we say the annexation has been condemned, we fail to present Israel's defense to that - Jerusalem was territory without a sovereign, captured in a defensive war. Its status in the partition plan isn't different from West Jerusalem - the city was to be internationalized, but the Arabs rejected the plan and captured half the city, etc. I don't want to start a discussion about the validity of those claims, but we don't even present them. We say Israel annexed EJ, and that many condemned that, but don't give Israel the right to defend its actions, leaving the reader with the clear conclusion that it's "wrong". Already the conflict gets undue weight in the lead, one out of three paragraphs. An entire section of the article is devoted to "Legal status".

Just as you might not like some things, not everything is perfect in my view. But I see the benefit of a compromise, and am willing to accept a non-optimal solution, to avoid a tug-of-war, and give due weight to the other viewpoints. okedem (talk) 05:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Haven't we been through this before?

Am I going senile or something? This whole argument seems familiar. I'm sure I read it three or four times already. We should simply dig it out of the archive - such a waste of good effort to rewrite all those arguments again.

As I recall, last time we went through this, I suggested that instead of writing

... is the capital of Israel and its largest city

we write

... is the seat of Israel's government and its largest city

It is, after all, only the word "capital" that is in dispute, not the facts: we all know where the office of the registrar of deeds is. Thanks to the great authors of the English language, we have many ways of saying the same thing. Why are we being such lugheads? --Ravpapa (talk) 06:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there's a link at the top of the page that goes to the sixty or so threads we've had about this issue already. And, from what I recall, the reason "capital" remained instead of "seat of government" is because we wouldn't say "Paris is the seat of government of France...". Saying "seat of government" is evasive, suggesting Israel's official capital is somewhere else (as in the case of The Hague) or not officially designated (as in the case of Tokyo). And, as was stated earlier, this evasion would serve to further the efforts of those he keep bringing up this issue by casting doubt on a factual statement. -- tariqabjotu 06:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Hmm, that (huge) collection of threads seems to be missing some useful ones. I've added another, which seems particularly relevant to the present discussion from /Archive 7 here. --NSH001 (talk) 08:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Your opinion that "seat of government" suggests something else than capital is, in my educated guess, not so. I bet that if you ask 100 people to read the "seat of government" version of the lead, 99 of them will not even notice the difference - if they think about it at all, they will think we are being poetic. And the 100th person will be Tiamut, who will be satisfied by the indisputable accuracy of the statement. It will end, once and for all, this idiotic dispute. --Ravpapa (talk) 08:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
While perhaps not to you, the evasiveness is apparent to me. Playing with semantics to give an illusion of doubt is not okay. -- tariqabjotu 09:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Also, I would like to call your attention to this sentence, from a New York Times article from June 19, 1879: "... will be made transferring the seat of Government back to Paris." (search for "Paris seat of government" in Google). Ha! --Ravpapa (talk) 09:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Um... are you joking? If not, there are a couple problems with your example that do anything but support your point. -- tariqabjotu 09:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Later: Interesting. I have just been reading about Paris, France. It is not the capital of France. France has no official capital. Sticklers refer to Paris as the seat of government, not as the capital. But you, Tariq, never even noticed that. So much for the vaunted difference between "capital" and "seat of government". --Ravpapa (talk) 09:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
Citation please? However, if I were to assume for the moment that you are correct that Paris is not the official capital of France, that does nothing to catapult my point. Jerusalem is both the capital of Israel both how its country denotes it and how its country treats it, which is more, according to you, than could be said about Paris. Please don't nitpick. -- tariqabjotu 09:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not easily offended, but your suggestion that I am nitpicking cuts to the quick. It is you, not I, who is nitpicking, finding minute distinctions where none exist. Except in a few very odd cases where the national government sits in a location other than the declared capital, the words "capital" and "seat of government" are used interchangeably. Merriam-Webster defines capital as "a city serving as a seat of government".

However, as your post and those of the other combatants shows, everyone is loath to change the word "capital", each for his or her own reasons. So it appears that the teams will continue batting at each other about this. Maybe they like it. Actually, I kind of like it, too. Perverse, no? But enough is enough. So this will be my last post on the topic.

Incidentally, I was reading about Paris at Capital (political). --Ravpapa (talk) 12:22, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Your example shows why your suggestion isn't good. We use the word "capital" all over Wikipedia to describe capital cities. The only places we use "seat of government" is when the designated capital is different from the seat of government, as one can read in the article you just linked to. In our case, Jerusalem is both the officially designated capital, and the seat of government, meaning the word "capital" encompasses the full meaning without need for clarifications (like "official capital" for Porto-Novo). If we really did use "seat of government" interchangeably, fine - but we don't. So there's no justification for singling-out Jerusalem, just because some people don't like seeing the words "Israel's capital" attached to it. okedem (talk) 13:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes That city is special due to the on-going conflict. Noting that it is disputed (despite Palestine being a state or not) will make the reader aware of it. Likeminas (talk) 18:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] arab capital of culture

Why is this single line being repeatedly removed? Is this article not allowed to highlight anything that might show Jerusalem as an Arab city? nableezy - 20:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

This line should be kept because it's an interesting fact. I don't see why it wouldn't be appropriate. Although instead of "have been", we should say "were" and the whole line (since it's quite short) should be merged into the larger, relevant passage. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with the Arab city business. It has to do with WP:RECENTISM. Jerusalem is thousands of years old. Nableezy wishes to stuff one out-of-context sentence from a March 2009 news article. Why? Imagine if everybody decided to put their favorite out-of-context sentence from a random 2009 news article about Jerusalem. The article would be reduced to political sniping highlighting every little perceived injustice committed in the last 9 months in this city that has existed since biblical times. Is that really what this Jerusalem article on Wikipedia is for? I propose we remove this sentence immediately and I will do it myself unless Nableezy can give a worthy counterargument. --GHcool (talk) 20:59, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
The entire history of the modern state of Israel is recentism in comparison to the thousands of years Jerusalem has been in existence, should we remove anything that the article discusses since 1948? Recentism is about skewing an article by placing undue weight on recent events, this is one line. And recentism is an essay not a policy. nableezy - 21:06, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
(ec) I'm not following. Jerusalem was selected as the 2009 Arab Capital of Culture and we shouldn't add this because it happened recently? If this line was in the "History" section, then I would agree with you. However, it looks like a perfect fit for the "Culture" section. Is the issue about the latter part of the line, where it says the celebrations were suppressed? If so, we could surely find a way to reword it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:08, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure why it's being removed either. It's obviously an important aspect of Jerusalem's culture, no matter how recent it is. Although Jerusalem does have an extensive history, the article (outside the History section) is supposed to be primarily about the city as it is today (or, rather, in recent decades). We don't talk about sports in Jerusalem in the 6th century BC or the economy of the city during the Crusades; we talk about sports, economy, and culture today. The only problem with the Arab Capital of Culture piece is that it's abruptly mentioned. It needs to flow better with the content around it and be stated in a manner other than two curt sentences. -- tariqabjotu 05:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree. How about in this passage: The Palestinian National Theatre, for many years the only Arab cultural center in East Jerusalem, engages in cultural preservation as well as innovation, working to upgrade and rekindle interest in the arts at the national level.[177] The Ticho House, in downtown Jerusalem, houses the paintings of Anna Ticho and the Judaica collections of her husband, an ophthalmologist who opened Jerusalem's first eye clinic in this building in 1912.[178] Al-Hoash, established in 2004, is a gallery for the preservation of Palestinian art.[179] In 2009, Jerusalem was selected as the Arab Capital of Culture, but celebrations in the city itself were prevented by Israeli authorities because they were organized by the PNA.[176]. Again, we could reword it, but that should solve the flow issue. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:48, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the reason that the pro-Is don't like this is because it sounds like you are merely pissed off because the Israelis wouldn't allow the festivities - the selection isn't all that important. And, truth be told, this injustice seems pretty mild compared to the recent house evictions in Sheikh Jarrah, the plans to bulldoze large sections of Silwan, and on and on.

I suggest that we include the bit about the Arab Capital of Culture, but leave out the bit about the Israelis suppressing the festivities. The point, after all, is to show that Jerusalem is a capital of Palestinian culture, and not to show what shmucks the Israelis can be. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:38, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Later: I did some revision and expansion of the stuff on Palestinian culture in Jerusalem, which might now be palatable to both sides. --Ravpapa (talk) 08:18, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I think Ravpapa did an excellent job. It is, to use Ravpapa's phrase, palatable to me. Thank you, Ravpapa.  :) --GHcool (talk) 16:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
I could certainly accept Ravpapa's changes—just mention that it was selected as the capital of Arab culture suffices. Thanks for your help, --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:45, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] capital of Palestine

Jerusalem has been declared the capital of the State of Palestine, which declared its independence in 1988 (see Palestinian Declaration of Independence). Me thinks this merits mention. Something along the lines of "Jerusalem has also been designated the capital of the State of Palestine in its 1988 declaration of independence. Palestine exercises no sovereignty over the city." nableezy - 06:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Wishful thinking for a non-existent state is of little importance. Anyway, we already discuss this, in the last paragraph of the lead: "Arab Palestinians foresee East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state". More than enough. okedem (talk) 06:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
You have made this argument elsewhere, but a state that has been recognized by over 100 other states is no longer a "non-existent state". And it is not just foreseen as the capital of a future state, it is the declared capital of an actual state. nableezy - 07:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
You have made that argument elsewhere, and it is just as irrelevant here as it was there. I keep trying to explain this to you - political recognition isn't the only criteria for statehood, and as all world leaders and Palestinian leaders speak of the Palestinian State in the future tense (stuff like "we need to establish a state", "if we unite we can make the state a reality in two years", etc), it's clear there is no state. And, of course, the meaning of the word "capital" is seat of government, and that is clearly true for Israel, and clearly false for any Palestinian entity with regard to Jerusalem. okedem (talk) 08:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
And it has repeatedly been shown to you that only other states have the power to determine whether or not a state exists. And they have done that by recognizing that a state of Palestine does in fact exist. And is it clearly false that Jerusalem has been designated the capital of Palestine, which is what my proposed edit says? nableezy - 08:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
In fact, this is the contrary - a State existe even if not recongnised, like Somaliland exists right now, and Palestine does not. Benjil (talk) 08:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The Palestinians' aspirations with regard to Jerusalem are already covered here, and nothing else is needed. And, again, I'm not interested in your interpretation of what is needed to make a state, as you fail to actually produce evidence that recognition is sufficient in this case (meaning - experts saying that such a state exists, purely due to recognition). Furthermore, the opinion of leaders means about infinity times more than yours, and they all concur no such state exists - I'm afraid we can't ignore them (including the opinion of the president of that supposed state) in favor of your OR interpretations.
Oh, and do tell me - did a State exist back in 1988? Even then many states recognized it, but it had absolutely no control over anything, and was declared by leaders in exile. okedem (talk) 08:42, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Here are some world leaders clearly discussing the Palestinian State in the future tense. You can find plenty of such statements with a simple google news search.
  • [3] - Salam Fayyad: "The Palestinian government... in order to establish a de facto state apparatus within the next two years"
  • [4] - Mahmoud Abbas: "We will not alter our demand to end the occupation in full and to establish a Palestinian, with east Jerusalem as its capital, on all of our national land."
  • [5] - Saudi king: "I can honestly tell you, brothers, that even if the whole world joins to found a Palestinian independent state, and if we have full support for that, this state would not be established as long as the Palestinians are divided."
  • [6] - Khaled Meshal: "We will accept a Palestinian state within 1967 lines"
  • [7] - "Speaking at Khan Younis mosque, Hamas' prime minister in Gaza says 'we won't serve as an obstacle to the establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders'"
  • [8] - Improving conditions for West Bank Palestinians shows that a Palestinian state can be "built from the bottom up while it's being negotiated from the top down," Quartet Mideast envoy Tony Blair said Tuesday.
  • [9] - "Turkish President Abdullah Gul Friday cast doubt on a European Union call for a deadline for the creation of a Palestinian state, warning such a move could be counter-productive." okedem (talk) 08:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Not really. Without recognition a state is not recognized as an international Person, it has no legal rights or responsibilities under international law. See here. There is no definition binding on all members of the community of nations regarding the criteria for statehood, and as long as there is no organ which could in casu reach a binding decision on this matter, the decision as to the statehood of an entity depends upon the other members of the community of nations. The governments of various states are the organs responsible for reaching individual decisions in a given case. The decision-making is called the recognition of states. The term signifies the decision of the government of an already existing State to recognize another entity as a State. The act of recognition is in fact a legal decision. States can "exist" without recognition in that they have a defined territory and government, but if they are not recognized by other states that "existence" is meaningless in international law. Palestine does exist simply because other sovereign states say it does. But all this is avoids the issue. Why would we not say that Jerusalem has been designated the capital of Palestine in the Palestinian declaration of independence? (hows this for evidence Okedem?) nableezy - 08:48, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Again, you're presenting your own analysis, which flies in the face of all statements by all leaders involved.
As for your suggestion - the problem with it is that it's meaningless - designated, great. It was also designated as capital by Israel - but it actually is Israel's capital, whereas it doesn't serve any Palestinian role. The current sentence is much more informative - the Palestinians want it to be their future capital - so it's not so now. More informative than a simple "designation", and makes clear the current situation. okedem (talk) 08:56, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Funny that you say I am presenting my own analysis when I give you one of the highest quality sources you will find on the topic saying the same thing. But I am curious to see what others have to say about the proposal so Ill just sit back now. nableezy - 09:06, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Your quote says nothing of "Palestine". And you continue ignoring all of the leaders saying the opposite. Don't these people know what you know? Are they that ignorant? okedem (talk) 09:15, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

It is clear to me that Nableezy is merely proposing to include a notable fact. It doesn't make any difference whether the thing recognized by 100 nations is a state or an icecream (like I'm eating right now); the fact that 100 nations think it is notable means that it is. Zerotalk 09:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The fact Nableezy wants to include is already in the lead of the article. okedem (talk) 10:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
No it isn't. I'm not necessarily in love with Nableezy's wording, but the fact he mentions is true and notable and should be mentioned somewhere. Zerotalk 14:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
It is indeed notable, relevant to a page on Jerusalem and actually required per WP:NPOV. Israel may think it haas a monopoly on claims over Jerusalem, but there are other significant viewpoints on the issue which should be included as well. Tiamuttalk 14:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it might be notable that Palestinians want Jerusalem to be their capital, which is why that's written in the lead. okedem (talk) 16:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
What's notable is that they have declared it the capital of Palestine, not that they merely want it to be. Stop playing WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Tiamuttalk 16:37, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
And why did they declare it? Because they want it as capital. Even if there was no formal declaration, the aspiration is the same, and the meaning is the same. They'd like it to be the capital of a Palestinian state, when such state is established. Both facts ("want" vs. "declared") are true, but the former gives more information (it isn't so now) than the later. okedem (talk) 16:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Palestinians foresee East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state. -- The Lead
Already mentioned. Already given due weight. Already discussed ad nauseum. Tiamut, it's incredibly ironic that you're citing WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. -- tariqabjotu 19:03, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes that is mentioned. What is not mentioned is that it has already been declared the capital of the current state of Palestine. nableezy - 19:08, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It's a difficult balancing act because there are several points that may confuse readers. The simple point is that Palestinians have declared Jerusalem the capital of the State of Palestine. But then the first caveat is that no part of Jerusalem is under Palestinian control. The second caveat is that Jerusalem is not the seat of government of a Palestinian government, so it's capital in name only (if even that). The third caveat (not so much a caveat, but a clarification) is that "state" does not mean what most people think it means -- i.e. that state does not necessarily include control over any territory (that's country).
Basically, what I'm saying is that, although Palestinian aspirations regarding Jerusalem are notable, this point is far from simplistic. And if we're going to begin by saying that Palestinians have declared Jerusalem the capital of the current (as future is insufficient for you) Palestinian state, we're going to have a lot of explaining to do. A footnote, perhaps, could be in order, but I think, should someone not read the footnote, they would almost certainly come off with a false impression (and so it should be put inline).
And, yes, I know that was a long-winded answer that didn't say much concrete. I'll try that in a moment (I have to move to a different location.) -- tariqabjotu 19:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
You raise important points, and we indeed should not be confusing the reader. I think if we can agree that this is a notable fact we can work out how it should be in the article. And your point about footnotes is well taken, as I feel quite the same regarding the footnote about Jerusalem being Israel's capital. nableezy - 19:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I knew you would bring that up, which is why I tried to head you off at the pass. Obviously, I was unsuccessful, but I'll leave it there. -- tariqabjotu 19:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I am not trying to change that footnote, I know that isnt going to happen. My point is that I dont think footnotes should be used to explain crucial pieces of information, which looks like your point as well. And even if the one on being capital of Israel does that I dont think we should do that for capital of Palestine. One boneheaded decision does not mean we must make another one. nableezy - 19:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Hows this: Palestinians foresee East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state. The Palestinian Liberation Organization, in the 1988 Palestinian Declaration of Independence, declared Jerusalem as the capital of the State of Palestine. Whole story without undue weight. nableezy - 19:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The second sentence is redundant. It's simply a sort of affirmation of the first. okedem (talk) 19:23, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) No it is not. Even if you think that Palestine does not exist (I love how that idea plays with demands for recognition of a right to exist) the second sentence clearly gives information not in the first, it cannot be redundant. Does the first actually say it has already been declared the capital, or just that it is hoped that it will be. Does the first say anything about the declaration of independence? How exactly is it redundant? nableezy - 19:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
How's this: Palestinians foresee East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state. The Palestinian Liberation Organization, in the 1988 Palestinian Declaration of Independence, declared Jerusalem as the capital of the State of Palestine despite never having sovereignty over any part of the city. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:43, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Sure, the second adds some information - but information of little meaning. They want Jerusalem as capital. One of the things they've done for that end is declaring it as such in 1988. But this isn't an article about the Palestinians, about the declaration, or about the SoP or the PNA. It's about Jerusalem, and we can't give so much space to a single point regarding future aspirations only. If you want, you can place the "declared" bit in a footnote, following the existing sentence - the declaration is the clear formal manifestation of the aspiration.
(Oh, and it's not just me who thinks no current State of Palestine exists - it's also Fayyad, Abbas, Fahed, Blair, Meshal, Hanniyah, Gul and countless others. Who can you present to support your position?) okedem (talk) 19:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Uhh, the 100+ states that have recognized it as a current state? You know, the entities that actually have that authority? nableezy - 19:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
According to your own personal opinion. But why doesn't any Palestinian or world leader share your views?
Let me just add French president Sarkozy - back in 2007 - Sarkozy: Lack of Palestinian state an injustice, and in 2009 Creating their own state is a "legitimate right" for Palestinians. I can find so many others... okedem (talk) 20:01, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The question isn't about whether the Palestinians have a state. The question is whether it's necessary to go beyond what is currently said -- that the Palestinians foresee East Jerusalem as the capital of their future country -- to also state that Palestinians have already declared East Jerusalem the capital of their [current] state, even though that designation means just about nothing. I'm increasingly becoming convinced that it's not important to also mention that (in the lead, to say nothing about how it's handled in the remainder of the article). The declaration is really, as okedem said, just a manifestation of what is already mentioned in the article and nothing more. If the problem is that the lead refers to a "future state" when a State of Palestine already exists, we could change it to "future country" or maybe "future independent state". I really don't care either way, though; I think it's clear enough as it is. -- tariqabjotu 20:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes: Jerusalem is the offical capital for the State of Palestine according to The Palestinian Basic Law Ahmad2099 (talk) 03:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)


[edit] Rioting: A Jerusalem pastime?

Has anyone noticed that riots are rather frequent in Jerusalem and vicinity? They riot over the Temple Mount (go look it up on the news), the Church of the Holy Sepulchre [10], parking lot openings on Shabbat [11], perceived harassment of haredim [12], and just about anything and everything, it seems. Since this habit of rioting has been pointed out numerous times in the media, the riots ought to be notable and thus worth a section (or maybe even an article). 192.12.88.7 (talk) 16:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

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