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  • Talk:Jesus/Archive 97 Removal of spurious representations of Jesus' appearance, trilemma, Mandaean views,scripture removed from historical Jesus section, Vanadalism, Pictures of Jesus, The Truths About Yeshua, Ehrman on harmonies
  • Talk:Jesus/Archive 98 Proposal, Possible NPOV Violation in the Geneology Section, first paragraph, at least three years in Jesus' Ministry, this article is too big.
  • Talk:Jesus/Archive 99 Literature to be mentioned, Timeline of birth, four gospels, lead; nontrinitarianism, historical Jesus, Jesus as myth, Manichaeism, year of jesus's birth, Edit at top of Jesus page, Colored Yeshua, Image of Jesus which currently exists, Proposal
  • Talk:Jesus/Archive 100 Historical Jesus, The To-Do Section, commenting out instead of deleting, 2008 Islamic movie on Jesus, Historical section/Christian views section, Laundry list of non-history scholars and works (alternative proposal), Its latin, isnt it?, this page may display a horizontal scroll bar in some browsers, Proposal on archives, First Section, The historical Jesus
  • Talk:Jesus/Archive 101 Edit war over capitalization, Historical Evidence for Jesus' Homosexuality, Carlaude's Majority view, What exactly did Jesus save us from and how?; Carlaude's Majority view part two., Title, PRJS, Dazed and Confused, Why was Jesus baptised?, Dates, Infobox vs. the historical Jesus
  • Talk:Jesus/Archive 102 religion founder, Other parameters, He is not God But rather a Demigod, Heavily christian-centric article, Jesus' Birthdate, Jesus in Scientology, Jesus name - Yeshua in Hebrew, means "Salvation" in English
  • Talk:Jesus/Archive 103 Writing clean-up, Jesus name in Sanskrit, Reforem Judaism, Jesus and Manichaeism, Bertrand Russell and Friedrich Nietzsche, Recent removal, NPOV, Detail about Buddhist views of Jesus that does not make sense, The Religious perspectives section
  • Talk:Jesus/Archive 104 Black Jesus, "Autobiography" of Jesus, Genealogy - Via What Father?, Addition to "Genealogy & Family", Resurrection, according to whom?, Bhavishya Purana, Christian history category, Quick Comment, BC/BCE?, The Truth, Was he any good at his day job?, In Popular Culture, jesus picture, views on Jesus and Muhamma, Occupation, New Dead Sea Discovery- Gabriel's Revelation, Some comments
  • Talk:Jesus/Archive 105 Genealogy "reloaded", Place of birth, Which religions?, was jesus ever bar miztvahed?, Bot report : Found duplicate references !, Jesus and the lost tomb, Some believe that Jesus was of middle eastern ethnicity, and not a caucasian, Mispelled cat at the bottom of this talk page, Harmony, Dating system, "Transliteration"
  • Talk:Jesus/Archive 106 8 B.C., ref name="HC13", Cause of death, Renewed Discussion Concerning AD/CE debate

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[edit] Main image: if all are equally disputed, choose what is believed by many to be the real image

Presently, under the present image of the Pantokrator, we have this statement: "no undisputed record of what Jesus looked like is known to exist."

Given this, i.e. all being equally controversial, I would like to propose that we use an image that is thought of by many people as the real image of the original Jesus: the Shroud of Turin. Although believers are the one's who mainly subscribe to its being a real image, even non-believers who dispute this record of what Jesus looked like and think it is a hoax, see that this is an excellent 13th century painting or depiction of Jesus (especially now that scientists are reviewing the radiocarbon dating).

My point is that if there exists a real image of the original Abraham Lincoln, Andrew Johnson, Benjamin Disraeli, William Gladstone, don't we usually choose to use the real image as in their present Wikipedia articles? And for Jesus, given that all depictions are equally disputed, then we should follow the logic of using the image that (a) is claimed by many to show the original visage of Jesus, (b) is the most famous image among those which purport to show the real face of Jesus, (c) is accepted by others as an extraordinary attempt in painting or depicting the original person. Historyprofrd (talk) 03:05, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "what many people believe to be the real original image". First of all, at the time if Jesus' alleged existence, there were no cameras, therefore if paintings disagree, there obviously cannot be a "true original image". In addition, the "stereotypical" idea of Jesus is as a white man with long, dark hair and sandals, and yet that is impossible because, among many other problems with this idea, Holy Bible refers to Israelis as its' main characters, and that includes the characters involved in any chapter mentioning 'Jesus'. As mentioned, an encyclopedia's purpose should be to DEBUNK myths where possible, not to perpetuate them merely because it is widely believed. For this reason, any picture of any character in the book that is used here should be one that is depicted as the book describes them (or rather, as at least one version of the book describes them, in this particular case), regardless of what some random human on the street may say as to their image of it. This will be true in all such cases of popular media and/or myths and/or legends etc. The 5 billion edits and translations will also have different depictions. Any piece of art that is entitled "Jesus" and is intended to refer to the character in Holy Bible will therefore be an appropriate image.
Thank you, St. Trond, the devout atheist of wikipedia, for the link to McCrone's conclusion that it is "a beautiful painting created about 1355" and "an inspired painting produced by a Medieval artist." It supports point (c). Historyprofrd (talk) 01:35, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't want this to sound like silent consensus, but I don't have much to say except that I personally don't like that idea. I think the Turin image is a bit creepy, and I associate it with 1980s Time-Life paranormal books. Doesn't seem professional. I've never encountered it in any scholarly works that I've encountered either. Also seems like a fairly controversial image (is it is real, is it a forgery, is it something else, is it a relic, etc?). Anyway, just my 2 cents. -Andrew c [talk] 03:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, it is an image of a dead man, something that many naturally find "a bit creepy"; but is that reason to exclude it? If I remember right, Wikipedia has an image of the death mask of Martin Luther. Soidi (talk) 16:54, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
It is a terribl idea. I would really like to see evidence for this claim: "even non-believers who dispute this record of what Jesus looked like and think it is a hoax, see that this is an excellent 13th century painting or depiction of Jesus." Even if true, it is a 13th century imagining ... not of Jesus's likeness but of the impression he left on his death shroud. It had importance as a relic, not as a portrait of Jesus. And there is no reason to think a 13th century imagining is any better than any other representation, including the computer-generated image of a 1st century Judean/Galilean we argued about before. We have argued about images in general, and my own view has been to oppose them as a whole. But if we are to include images, I'd rather we stuck with artist's images of Jesus throughout the ages (e.g. starting with early Byzantine) ... not an image of a fake impression of some generic person on some shroud. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:19, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Agree with Soidi. Creepiness is something subjective. For some it is not creepy at all but a a face which shows peace and calm, a face that is in fact venerated by thousands upon thousands. The problem of Slrubestein mentions is solved by the link provided by St. Trond which I referred to earlier: [1] Please read what I wrote above. McCrone's conclusion is that it is "a beautiful painting created about 1355" and "an inspired painting produced by a Medieval artist." It supports point (c). To say that it is but a relic and does not have importance as an image or portrait is not proven by facts. Kindly read Shroud of Turin and word image outnumbers relic by many. Please also read Holy Face of Jesus and word relic does not appear. The word image appears uncountable times. ;-) Just exagerrating for humor's sake.... I respect your views but IMHO here we should not base decisions on "I find" "I rather" "I personally don't like" but on solid reasons. Please take into account that the belief that it is fake is just one more. The belief that it is the real deal is widespread in the 1 billion Catholic church and 2 billion Christians. Some non-believers also see it as original but reason out based on science. So these opinions have to be taken into account. If one reason is "through the ages" then this has been venerated to be the real deal from the beginning. That it is not used in other scholarly works is not a basis. Wikipedia purports to be better, more logical and more reasonable, more groundbreaking. Historyprofrd (talk) 02:58, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
The images in this article, while arguably not portraits of the historical Jesus, clearly are art/religious representations of Jesus, depicting religious symbolism and imagery, and/or depicting scenes from the gospels. The images are fairly broad, covering through the ages and through the sects. It is always tough to choose an image for the top of the article, because then we are giving prominence to one view. For all these images, even non-Christians can agree that the artist was intending to illustrate the character of Jesus. This is not the same for the Shroud of Turin. The images does not help the reader understand religious symbolism associated with Jesus, the image does not help the reader understand a gospel narrative involving Jesus, nor is it particularly characteristic of how a certain sect or time period depiction Jesus' appearance. The only thing going for it is that some people believe it to be an actual image of Jesus, but this is hotly debated, even among Christians and Catholics. Thus, the image is controversial, and doesn't add much understanding to the topic at hand. Furthermore, as stated above, reliable sources do not give so much prominence (if they cover at all) the Shroud of Turin. WP:V and WP:RS are still important aspect of Wikipedia, even if I personally think the image is unappealing. We mention the Shroud once in the entire article. If there was an reason to discuss the Shroud in more detail, and there was consensus, I wouldn't oppose adding an image of the Shroud further down the article in the corresponding section ("Legacy"), but I have yet to be convinced it deserves to be at the top. Arguments like this has been venerated to be the real deal from the beginning are nonsensical when the actual providence of the Shroud only goes to the 14th century. Without sources, The belief that it is the real deal is widespread in the 1 billion Catholic church and 2 billion Christians. is not helpful. If we did have notable sources claiming this is the most ecumenical image and most venerated image, that would be a better argument for inclusion at the top. -Andrew c [talk] 14:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
It is not a general worshipping of this medieval fake relic. It may be among Roman Catholics, as the Pope seems interested in it. If Catholics want it on the Catholic page it may be put there, but it should be rejected here. Anyway, it should be referred to as a painting and a Catholic fake relic, as that is what it is. St.Trond (talk) 15:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a good seletion of art work currently in the article and I see no reason to add a relic to the mix. --StormRider 19:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. Let's recall the objective of Wikipedia. When someone comes to Wikipedia and wants to know about Jesus, they want to know above all about Jesus, i.e. the person, the man. Not religious symbolism about him, the gospel narrative about him, how a sect depicts him. Yes they also and secondarily want to know about these things, and somehow the shroud image shows these also (the gospel says he was tortured, this is a religious relic venerated, and this is kept by the Catholic church), but they came to here to know the man. And what a better way to know a man than to see his face, his real face. The face is the mirror of the soul, of the person, the mirror of the man. It tells a thousand words about the guy. That is why we have used the picture of Abraham Lincoln et al and not a portrait of them as the top picture. Let's also leave behind our prejudices in this discussion. To say categorically that this is actually a fake is to uncritically ignore all the biological, forensic, historical, chemical etc etc evidence in shroud science, and to accept uncritically the old and disputed 1988 radio carbon dating which the director of England's Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit wants to be reviewed. See this [2] and this [3] A more guarded scientific pressuposition is right for Wikipedia. Please try to see this objectively and see the multicultural and multi perspectives on this image of Jesus. The argument I raised takes into account these many perspectives and given that the "face is the feature which best distinguishes a person (Wikipedia on face}, and given that this is the the best and most famous image that purports to show the original, then it is reasonable to show it, together with a caption that it is disputed. Again, let me reiterate that this article itself avers that all images are disputed. That's a given. So it is reasonable to use one which has great illustrative informative capacity to give information to Wiki readers (potentially if true and artistically if fake) about this person, this man, this face. Compare this information giving power (50% possibility of being real and 50% fake) to an artist's rendition which has 0% possibility of copying the original). And with key scientists wanting to review the facts, this is not a 50:50 thing anymore, given all the other evidences. Historyprofrd (talk) 01:19, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
It's not 50:50 alright - it's about zero percent. There is no reliable positive evidence that the Shroud is real. There have been enough "real" splinters from the "real" cross to re-build the Victory, and many saints must have had more appendages than Cthullu to account for the number or relics. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The Shroud has no reliable history for the first 1300 years of it purported life - even if it were of the right age, the a-priory chance that it is the real thing is negligible. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
"And what a better way to know a man than to see his face, his real face. The face is the mirror of the soul, of the person, the mirror of the man. It tells a thousand words about the guy????" Okay, I think this guy has had his soap-box long enough. Historyprofrd, these pages are to discuss improvements to articles in compliance with our core content policies. It is not a place for you to soapbox. Stephan Sculz is right. Let's move on. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Please don't give me an ad hominem argument. Or an argument that skirts my main argument by just mere assertion of opinion on the authenticity of the shroud. The content policy on verifiability and reliability are taken care of by these websites and works:

All image are disputed. And there is one that mainly purports to be the original. Historyprofrd (talk) 12:40, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The way an attempt was made simply to dismiss Historyprofrd was, I think, unjustified. I'm quite uncertain about the suitability of having his preferred image as the principal image, but I am convinced that it has at least as much right to be included as any of the artworks at present in the article. Inserting it can certainly be seen as improving the article. Soidi (talk) 15:58, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The trouble with this approach is that it gives credence to the disputed image, as if we are somehow giving it special status. If we use an image that everyone knows is not authentic, and state that, then we are not supporting any particular image. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Each of the images now in the article has formed the mind-picture that some people have of the subject. All but two have an indication of the century in which they were produced. Can we not add to the Shroud image an indication of the century to which it was assigned in the tests to which it was subjected? Soidi (talk) 16:16, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
The reason this painting is venerated is that it is believed by some to be produced in some divine way. If the person shown in the painting really is meant to be Jesus, then it was a medieval con to bring a dead person's soul into Paradise. If the person depicted on the shroud is for example a crusader, then it should not be indicated that it is Jesus. If it is indicated today that it may be a relic, then that is a con too. The painting should not be referred to as an image, we know how it was produced, it should be referred to as a painting and that it is used today as a fake relic. St.Trond (talk) 17:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, go ahead and call it a painting (like some of the other images/paintings already in the article), but include it. (It seems, however, that it is not in fact a painting, but a picture, an image, or whatever you wish to call it, produced by a process that did not involve paint.) The models for other images/paintings were not Jesus. Are they presented as if they were? And who is asking that it be presented as a relic? Soidi (talk) 17:47, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
These websites attest to the fact that there is a recent craze over the shroud, in part because cable and broadband has created too much TV space for broadcasters to know what to do with. I fully acknowledge that there are people who devoutly and piously believe this to be an image of Jesus, not Paul's Jesus of the spirit but Jesus of the flesh. But I know of no credible historians who believe this. I am all for Wikipedia having an article on the shroud, I do not think it belongs in this article. for what it is worth I have qualms about all the images of Jesus, but the thing is, they do not pretend to be what most historians say they are not (portraits of the real Jesus). My problem with the shroud is that it pretends to be what most historians say it is not (an image of the real Jesus). Slrubenstein | Talk 17:58, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Soidi, where are you suggesting it be included in the article? What section? As I stated earlier, the only section that makes sense to me is "Legacy", and even given that, with the amount of corresponding text in that section devoted to the Shroud, adding the image may be undo weight. -Andrew c [talk] 18:07, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I hadn't at all thought about where would be the best place to insert it. But it seems to me that the obvious place would be in connection with his death.
It does not have to be presented as "an image of the real Jesus". Can it not be presented, like the others, simply as an image/picture/depiction/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of Jesus? A more famous and remarkable one than most, one which, for that reason, would add to the article. A simple link to the article Shroud of Turin should be enough to take care of questions regarding the identity of the image/picture/depiction/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. Soidi (talk) 19:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Soidi. You have understood my arguments and did not lose focus. I specially applaud your question: "And who is asking that it be presented as a relic?" because this is all about an image. Yes I concede that it would be too much to ask for it to be made top image. I agree that its place is in the Death section. But please do not add a date to it because that means taking sides in the ongoing debate and Wikipedia is not supposed to do that. Better to replace the El Greco painting with Velasquez and then put the Shroud in place of Velasquez. There are many professional historians, of course mostly historians who are Christians, who deem the shroud authentic based on historical evidence. There are many because there are many universities set up by the Catholic church, which may not be too well known in protestant countries or secularized countries. People should take note that several websites list books and scholarly articles, not gossip trash. Systemic bias and prejudice could be at work in not understanding why the shroud image improves the article. Historyprofrd (talk) 09:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I am happy to include the shroud image, provided it is properly captioned and cross-referenced. However I strongly disagree with the suggestion that no date be added because that would be "taking sides in an on-going debate". There is no on-going debate - carbon-dating by a number of recognised scientists has shown the shroud is no older than the Middle Ages, and the debate is over. Suggestions that the portion of fabric tested may not have been original, are pure speculation. This suggests that the entire team of scientists who took the original samples were complete fools, which is baseless and thus fringe. There is no "historical evidence" that supports a 2000-year old shroud - the thing appeared out of nowhere at around the same time that the carbon-dating indicates it was manufactured. If fresh info comes to light then the records will obviously change, but for now, the accepted mainstream scientific consensus has it that the shroud is a medieval forgery, and Wikipedia is supposed to present accepted mainstream consensus. Wdford (talk) 10:18, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Can we agree to include the image with a caption such as: "The Shroud of Turin's image of the dead Christ. Radiocarbon tests in 1988 dated it to the thirteenth century". The proposed statement about the 1988 tests holds, even if the scientific judgement were one day to be altered. The words "relic" and "fake" should both be avoided here. Soidi (talk) 11:18, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I have a degree of ambivalence and yet, I also fail to understand the value of this image relative to all other paintings, sculptures, etc. of Jesus. Granted I would probably delete some of the images already in the article because I personally don't care of them. What happens the next time someone wants to add another personal favorite? By choosing the Shroud of Turin what does the article gain? Is it improved or is the Shroud elevated? As far as placing it in the death or legacy section; how does any image compare to the Pietà at death? IMHO, nothing compares to that particular masterpiece.
This entire conversation started out from the premise of "we use an image that is thought of by many people as the real image of the original Jesus". It is obvious that the intent is not simply to add another image, but it is to aggrandize the Shroud. On the other hand, that might be just reason enough to have it in the article. Of course, this is not a Christian article per se, but rather an article about Jesus in all contexts. Surely the article would be better improved by adding a picture from the other religions, which are not well represented in the image department?
Again, some ambivalence, but I still don't think the article is improved by adding it. --StormRider 11:59, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
To Soidi: Why don't you want to you use "fake relic"? That is why it is venerated. What about "medieval shroud painting", or "venerated medieval shroud painting"? I am against using "image" as we know it is a painting. St.Trond (talk) 08:20, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
This would need a bit of education and learning from peer reviewed journals and experts:
Editor of Nature, Philip Ball, He holds a degree in chemistry from Oxford and a doctorate in physics from Bristol University. He was an editor for the journal Nature for over 10 years (Wikipedia).: "Attempts to date the Turin Shroud are a great game, but don't imagine that they will convince anyone...And yet, the shroud is a remarkable artifact, one of the few religious relics to have a justifiably mythical status. It is simply not known how the ghostly image of a serene, bearded man was made." (Nature online, January 2005)
Journal: Thermochimica Acta (Vol 425, Jan 2005) “Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin”, Raymond Rogers, "leading expert in thermal analysis" (Wikipedia): The fact that vanillin cannot be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicate that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggest the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years...The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis/ms proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth. The radiocarbon sample was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud.
Christopher Ramsey, head of the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit which participated in the 1988 Carbon 14 Dating of the Shroud. (Mar 2008): There is a lot of other evidence that suggests to many that the Shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow and so further research is certainly needed. It is important that we continue to test the accuracy of the original radiocarbon tests as we are already doing. It is equally important that experts assess and reinterpret some of the other evidence. Only by doing this will people be able to arrive at a coherent history of the Shroud which takes into account and explains all of the available scientific and historical information.
Robert Villarreal, Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) chemist who headed a team of nine scientists at LANL which examined material from the carbon 14 sampling region. (Aug 2008): [T]he age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case. Historyprofrd (talk) 13:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Why should we express any judgement here on whether the Shroud is a relic or a fake? That is for the article(s) on the Shroud. Here we are only interested in the image on it. It is a decidedly notable image of Jesus, even if it is only of the thirteenth century. I repeat my suggestion for an NPOV caption: "The Shroud of Turin's image of the dead Christ. Radiocarbon tests in 1988 dated it to the thirteenth century."
Perhaps Storm Rider is right in attributing to Historyprofrd the aim of "elevating" the Shroud. I prefer to make no judgement on that matter. For my part, I don't think I have any such intention. I just think, as I said, that it is an image of such notability that it deserves to be included somewhere. I don't see any reason for putting it under the heading "Legacy", at least no reason more than there is for the images made for Christian devotion that are at present in the article. Putting this particular image under "Legacy" would draw attention to the claims made about it. As I also said, I think no mention whatever should be made in this article of those claims. Soidi (talk) 14:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
There are 4 images without dates and 10 images with dates. Why tilt the balance further? Historyprofrd (talk) 01:02, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Soidi: It is a fake and not a relic: The image is made up of pigment particles of ochre and vermilion, which has only been used since the 14th century. St.Trond (talk) 06:57, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the amount of talk here is evidence of two things: (1) the article deserves its own article, that can do justice to the range of beliefs and controversies, and (2) this article cannot provide an adequate account of it without going off on an unaffordably lengthy t tangent. The article should at sope point mention Catholicism. The article on Catholicism should mention relics. The article on relics should mention the Shroud of Turin (most relics are what we would call fakes and they were hot commodities in the Middle Ages; there is a scholarly literature on this, start with Geary in the volume The Social Life of Things edited by Appadurai). Slrubenstein | Talk 10:34, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

StT and SlR, why do you two think this could be a place to discuss whether the Shroud is a fake or a relic? There are already two (no less) articles in Wikipedia on that matter, one concentrating on the Shroud itself, the other on the 1988 tests. So why again say that the Shroud deserves its own article, as if it didn't already have one? All that is proposed here is inclusion of the image. Anyone interested in the claims made for or against the Shroud can go to those two articles, to which links can be provided. Even if StT is right (and can source his statement) and the 1988 tests wrong, all we need do is change the indication "thirteenth" century to "fourteenth". It would be as out of place to mention relics (false or true) here as to say that a particular image is traditionally seen as wonder-working. I am only suggesting that the image be included, not a discussion of the Shroud. So what is wrong with including the image as an image? Or what is wrong with the caption I proposed? Soidi (talk) 15:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Fine. On the understanding that no actual portraits of Jesus exist, and that the shroud has no more claim to accuracy than any other image, I am happy to include the shroud image as one among many, with the caption "An image of the dead Christ on the Shroud of Turin, which was dated by radiocarbon-dating tests in 1988 to the thirteenth century". If anybody is strongly opposed, please could you give clear reasons and your suggested alternative? Wdford (talk) 18:08, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Soidi you ignored my basic point which is that I think that the explanation required to explain the Shroud accurately so overwhelms this article ... that it is best left for its own article. The article exists? Great!! no one can complain that Wikipedia is exclusing the Shroud.
Now, if we are to include it, strictly speaking, it is not an image of the dead Jesus in the sense most people I think inend (i.e. the impression made on the fabric by Jesus' actual body), it is an image that people claimed to be of the dead Jesus. The only reason we do not say this with other works of art presented is that I know of no one who ever claimed that an icon or painting was an image of the living Jesus. Or to be clearer, the problem is image has two meanings. A painting is an imagined image. Many have claimed that the shroud is the actual imprint of Jesus, more like a photograph taken at the time. I would agree with "An image, claimed by some to be of the dead Jesus," on the ..." "believed by some" would be fine too, if anyone thinks the word claim has negative connotations. Phrased like that i have no objection although I still think it adds nothing to the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:53, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry: I don't see what is overwhelming about "An image of the dead Christ on the Shroud of Turin, which was dated by radiocarbon-dating tests in 1988 to the thirteenth century"? Should we shorten it to "The Dead Christ, Shroud of Turin, radiocarbon-dated to 13th century"? Then it will be uniform with, for instance, "Adoration of the Shepherds, Gerard van Honthorst, 17th century". I feel sure you are convinced that the Adoration of the Shepherds never took place, but I presume too that you do believe that Jesus died. What else do you think the image is of if not of Jesus as dead? Why go into what people believe about the content of the 13th-century(?) image, and not into what people believe about the 17th-century image? Soidi (talk) 20:37, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Dead Jesus, not dead christ. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:18, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Then just cut the radiocarbon dated, just say, 13th century. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:18, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Endorsing the 1988 tests as undoubtedly valid without making mention of the existence of a contrary theory, even if it is only a fringe theory, would not be NPOV. We may not agree with those who dispute the validity of the tests, but the validity is in fact disputed. Why are you insisting on bringing into this article a dispute of which the article has absolutely no need and which is indeed quite out of place in the article? Why do you object to just stating the undoubted fact without taking sides, one way or another? If I remember right, but perhaps my memory is false, you accused another editor of having as his aim to exalt the Shroud, not to improve the article. Is it possible that you have as your perhaps subconscious aim to downplay the Shroud, not to improve the article? Maybe not, and I am making no accusation; but I think I have to ask you the question. Soidi (talk) 15:52, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Shroud of Turin caption and dates

Lots of things are disputed by the enlightened minority, but Wikipedia does not shy away from taking sides, Wikipedia states the mainstream opinion as fact and the fringe opinion as fringe. For example Wikipedia does not take sides in the articles on Christianity or Jesus, but states the facts as per current mainstream opinion. If it subsequently turns out that the earth really is flat, or that Elvis really is still alive, or that the Shroud of Turin really is 2000 years old, then Wikipedia will be updated to reflect that new consensus. Right now, the 1988 radiocarbon results still stand. The quality control at the time did not doubt that the many experienced scientists involved selected a representative sample, or that they decontaminated it properly, or that they did anything wrong at all, and three different labs all reached the same conclusion. Any scientist who claims that the sampled section was non-representative or contaminated will need to prove his/her claims first. Until then, such claims are fringe, and must be reflected as such. ¬¬¬¬ —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Wdford (talk • contribs)
Of course, Wikipedia does not have to shy away from taking sides on the Shroud's authenticity. The place for doing so is in the two articles concerning its alleged authenticity. But in what way is it useful to this article to raise the question here? Soidi (talk) 18:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC) `
Soidi, you may well be right about my unconscious motives. I will have to think about it. It is fair for you to raise the point. All I can say is: my conscious intent was simply to suggest uniform phrasing for all images. If others think that this is inappropriate (that different images require different amounts and kinds of information) I won't pursue the argument. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:22, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
Soidi and Wdford, allow me to tell you that you are both wrong on mainstream opinion and fringe opinion on the 1988 carbon dating. The Wikipedia article on this topic has to be updated. If you check footnote number 2 that says "This dating is now generally accepted by the scientific community", the footnote reads: Piergiorgio Odifreddi. La sindone, un mistero per modo di dire. La Repubblica, November 25, 2000, page 48. It does not even have a link. However, what I painstakingly quoted as the pronouncements of experts (Nature Editor, Philip Ball et al) are dated January 2005, March 2008, August 2008. They are found in the web. If by mainstream opinion you want to believe an Italian writer of la Repubblica (born a radical/socialist newspaper) in the year 2000, then please do so, but please do not take Wikipedia with you. I do not mean to be sarcastic but I want to drive home a very important point. Historyprofrd (talk) 08:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
History, I still think that this isn't the place to discuss the validity of the tests and that here we should limit ourselves to stating the bald fact of what the tests reported. Whether they were right or wrong is for the article dedicated to that precise question and, in less detailed fashion, for the article on the Shroud itself, and I have proposed to include a link to each of them. Propaganda either in support of or in opposition to the validity of the tests is out of place here. Soidi (talk) 09:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Soidi, I feel your passion for 1988 radiocarbon dating and its bald results, how about passion for bald results of the 2005 and 2008 scientific studies? What I mean is that if this isn't the place to discuss validity of tests as you very well say, why include one side of the debate in the image caption, and not the other? Why do propaganda for one side and not for the other? And since no one has shown a more recent scientific study disproving the 2005 and 2008 scientific results, then to push for the ancient 1988 results is more propaganda (misleading info) than to push for the 2008 results. Historyprofrd (talk) 00:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Would you please specify what you mean by the 2005 and 2008 scientific results, by giving a reference to some particular section of one or other of the two articles on the subject? I have failed to identify which ones you mean. You obviously do not mean any of the experiments that produced near-identical replicas of the Shroud. You probably mean claims that the 1988 samples came from a contaminated part of the Shroud or similar claims casting doubt on the validity of the 1988 tests but without positively proving that the Shroud is of some earlier date. If there were scientific tests proving an earlier date, they could be mentioned; but if it is only a matter of disputing the validity of the 1988 scientific tests, the wikilinks to the two articles are enough to indicate the existence of that dispute.
I think my proposal is a fair presentation. If you insist on turning this article into a third article on the disputed age of the Shroud, I regret that I cannot support inclusion here of the image on the Shroud. Soidi (talk) 06:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you, Soidi. Kindly note that I have never insisted on turning this article into a third article on the disputed age of the Shroud. I wonder where that idea came from. :) I hope people here have seen what I wrote earlier: "There are 4 images without dates and 10 images with dates. Why tilt the balance further?" This clearly shows my position: I do not want any dates accompanying the shroud. And these are the reasons: Because (a) there is a dispute and (b) because there are other images without a date, why tilt the balance further in favor of dates? why pick on the shroud when there is letter (a) and (b). I hope (a) and (b) can be clarifed. Thank you. Historyprofrd (talk) 07:25, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I think the correct solution is to date all images (where possible). Without historic context, this is just an image gallery. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Also state the process by which each image has been produced, for example "painted". St.Trond (talk) 10:11, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. Wdford (talk) 10:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Ok, then, let's date all the images. I support that. Since the date for the shroud is disputed and there are arguments for both 14th century and 1st century dates, then we should put both. Soidi, here are the links you requested: statement of Philip Ball:Editor of Nature (Nature online, January 2005), : "Attempts to date the Turin Shroud are a great game, but don't imagine that they will convince anyone...And yet, the shroud is a remarkable artifact, one of the few religious relics to have a justifiably mythical status. It is simply not known how the ghostly image of a serene, bearded man was made." He also said: "It is, [Rogers] says, between 1300 and 2000 years old. Let's call it somewhere around the middle of that range, which puts the age at about 2,000 years. Which can mean only one thing . . ." And the other quote from Raymond Rogers: Journal: Thermochimica Acta (Vol 425, Jan 2005) “Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin”, Raymond Rogers The fact that vanillin cannot be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicate that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggest the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years...The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis/ms proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth. The radiocarbon sample was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud. Christopher Ramsey Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, from its own website: "There is a lot of other evidence that suggests to many that the Shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow and so further research is certainly needed." For more data, you can check this out: Shroud of Turin Carbon Dating Biggest Radiocarbon Mistake Ever. Historyprofrd (talk) 11:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually, all you link to are quotes that are completely out-of context, and often second and third hand. Have you read Rogers and Ball first-hand? Ramsey's quote, which, btw is here is from an article that refutes one suggested argument for miss-measurement. Ball's text is here, and he is quite sceptical of Roger's claim, and even more sceptical of the general field. "Believers' ability to construct ingenious arguments is more than a match for the most exhaustive efforts of science. The shroud literature leaves no stone unturned in casting doubt on 'evidence' that the relic was faked, while embracing with blind rapture every argument for its authenticity. " Indeed, even if you accept Roger's paper at face value, it certainly does not provide significant positive evidence for a first-century origin, with an error range of 1700 years. At best, it does not refute it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:35, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
The purported limitations regarding radiocarbon testing of religiously sensitive materials should be brought to, and discussed on, the page regarding Radiocarbon dating. The Jesus talk page cannot be involved in discussions about physical phenomena. Only the physically logical solution should be presented on the Jesus page. St.Trond (talk) 14:02, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I have an idea that can help quell the controversy: don't include the shroud image in this article. I don't believe it is necessary, and I believe we can easily include works of art that better illustrate the concepts of Jesus' death/resurrection. The shroud is controversial, and thus needs further explanation, and additionally doesn't relate to the article's text in that section. -Andrew c [talk] 16:31, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Now that is "constructive"! Great Idea - Ret.Prof (talk) 21:05, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
To those who are again dismissing the image, please return to the main arguments, please focus, and do not use merely personal assertions.
To those who may object to a first century dating appearing with the 14th century dating: Please be reminded of NPOV: Articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias. The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. It requires that all majority- and significant-minority views must be presented fairly, in a disinterested tone, and in rough proportion to their prevalence within the source material.
To those who may say there is no verifiable source that that there is a significant view that it is from the first century, then this is one: http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/papers/p11.pdf. There are many more. They can be found in the websites I previously gave links to, e.g. textile analysis, pollen analysis, vanillin analysis, language analysis, microparticle analysis, blood analysis, body image analysis, human anatomy analysis, historical analysis, etc. Raymond Rogers before he died also gave a statement that he believed that the shroud is the real burial cloth of Jesus. This 1998 Results of a probabilistic model applied to the research carried out on the Turin Shroud is interesting because it summarizes some of the scientific data on why the shroud is most probably the burial cloth of Jesus.
To St. Trond, on painting, please see this.Historyprofrd (talk) 01:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
To Historyprofrd: The "blood stains" of the shroud was found to contain pigments of red ochre and vermilion. These substances were not tested in the article you point at. Why? Because they were used only since the 14th century? According to your article the first bishop to see it confirmed that it was a painting. I still think you should try your points at the page about radiocarbon dating. St.Trond (talk) 07:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
...and the best you can say about the probability model paper is that the authors are upfront: "It was made up a probabilistic model...". Seriously, the "model" is nonsense, and the probabilities used are arbitrary, and obviously wrong. They consider three cases: It's the real thing, it's a medieval forgery, and "everything else". Note that the "everything else category includes the case that it is a first-century shroud, just not Jesus'. All so-called evidence that the Shroud is from the middle east gives nearly equal weight to the Jesus and the "other" category, although the a-priori probability of the "Jesus" hypothesis is only (still unrealistically high) 5%. This is complete mathematical nonsense. And even the C14 dating gives nearly equal weight to all three hypotheses... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you both, Stephan and St. Trond. Wikipedia is not interested in truth but in verifiability, notability, use of reliable sources and neutrality: including all significant points of view. I believe all the above arguments have proven that the point of view of the Shroud being either a real image of the original Jesus or a fake, and the shroud being of 14th century provenance or of 1st century provenance is significant, notable, verifiable and has reliable sources, and is neutral. Historyprofrd (talk) 01:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia has two articles that deal with the provenance. There is no need to deal with it here also. Soidi (talk) 05:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Historyprofrd forwarded a suggestion some time ago. It has gained little traction. AndrewC made a sensible suggestion, which seems to reflect the majority opinion on this page if not consensus, but every time people are ready to move on to talk about some meaningful way to inprove the article (like, hey I don't know, read another book on the topic? Or is that kind of research not appropriate for an encyclopedia?), Historyprofrd makes the same proposal. Many responses, but Historyprofrd's position has not changed, she just keeps repeating it. wp:DE anyone? Slrubenstein | Talk 05:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Reading through all this talk, I can sense a difference between rational thinking (Historyprofd) and disruptive argumentation (St. Trond and others). Is there a mafia here? Historyprofd gave a magisterial defense of his position and I am in favor of all his proposals. His are legitimate propositions backed up by Wikipedia policies. Jesus' shroud image is famous all over the globe as his image. A Wikipedia article on Jesus will be vastly improved by its presence within thhe article. Congratulations Historyprofd! Lafem (talk) 11:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I suppose Lafem doesn't include me in the "mafia", since I have argued against omitting the image. If Historyprofd were satisfied with an implicit reference to the dispute about the date (just a wikilink to each of the two existing articles that discuss the question), we might move on to including the image. If Lafem is indeed in favour of including an explicit reference to the dispute, Lafem seems to be the only editor who supports History's wish. Why does Lafem think that an implicit reference is not enough? Soidi (talk) 11:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
You have to read Preserve information. I am against censorship even implicit censorship of a vital piece of information. The date of an exact mirror image (like a photograph) of an individual is vital information that should be contained in his article, isn't it? If it is verifiable and vital, why should it be implicit? And if it not vital, why is it vittal to put the date on the radiocarbon dating and the other pictures? Tell me, Soidi, why?Lafem (talk) 11:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I am very pleased to state my agreement with the ideas of Soidi, Historyprofrd, and Lafem in not omitting an image of Jesus Christ’s image in his burial cloth of Turin. It is right and proper to include an image of his burial cloth in this excellent article regarding Jesus Christ. It will enhance its excellent quality by providing readers a glimpse of the face of Jesus. Thanks to Historyprofrd for his work. I do not have any opinion regarding the dispute regarding dates but Historyprofrd’s two proposals seem to be correct--remove dates altogether or place the two disputed dates. 4672mtem (talk) 12:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Lafem, 4672mtem, and Soidi, for your comments. Much appreciated indeed! :) I particularly appreciate Lafem's point that "Jesus' shroud image is famous all over the globe as his image. A Wikipedia article on Jesus will be vastly improved by its presence within the article." Yes, sir. To those who continue using ad hominem arguments, please let us focus on discussing this using reasoned argumentation vis-a-vis content policies. I respect your views but there is basis for inclusion of this image and both dates because we bring both "conflicting perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. [NPOV] requires that all majority- and significant-minority views must be presented fairly..." This is an image with conflicting perspectives. Either we show the two conflicting perspectives on dates fairly or as I said earlier, I am ok with none at all, but to prefer one date over the other is not NPOV, but imbalance. Historyprofrd (talk) 13:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree, there are presented two different views. The two views should be named in the caption: It is the Roman Catholicism which finds the shroud venerable, and the rest of us who do not find it exceptional at all among other 14th century religious paintings. St.Trond (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I've always found it strange that no archaeological artifact connected with Jesus is shown here. Mohammad and Charlemagne are two cases where you have artifacts/archaeolocal sites found in their Wikipedia article. It's good that this lack is now going to be fixed. I wish more of these artifacts can be added. How about a picture of Jesus's birthplace? Christmas is an international event.
The shroud may be disputed however I don't believe its right to shy away from controversy. Just present the controvery and that's it. How about a caption like "1st century burial cloth or 14th century religious painting?". It is not only Roman Catholics who believe in the shroud, many protestants now believe it too, not to mention the loads of studies done by scientists. Ran9876 (talk) 03:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Okay, how about putting it in the section describing his death, and labeling it: "A 13th century representation of a 1st century burial shroud." I would have no objection at all to that. A link to the article on the Shround of Turin will enable readers to learn more, including all points of view in a controversial debate. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:27, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Slrubenstein, your comments smack of a wily subterfuge to get what you have always wanted while appearing to concede. Your wily suggestion is a breach of NPOV nonetheless. You want to make it an established fact that the Shroud is only a 13th century representation. Your idea takes sides. The fact is both sides have bases, and the consensus of Historyprofrd, Rann9876, 4672mtem, St. Trond and myself is abide by NPOV: to present both. Lafem (talk) 11:51, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
The authenticity of the shroud is still a fringe view. The age was calibrated by multiple teams of serious professionals, and that work has not been officially overturned. All that is available to the believers is that a tiny handful of people have proposed that the original teams all failed to do the job properly, and that the DATE MIGHT PERHAPS be wrong. There is no evidence that the date really is wrong, and if the date does turn out to be wrong there is no evidence that the true date is from the time of Jesus, and if the date actually is from the time of Jesus there is still no evidence that this is indeed an article that came from the tomb of Jesus. This is absolutely NOT a 50:50 argument. It is fascinating that people can argue that the smoke from the various fires may have affected the carbon-dating - even though smoke and skin-oils etc were carefully washed off first - but those same people do not consider that all that heat and smoke and incense and rough handling over the centuries may have affected the linen differently to linens which were safely contained in clay pots out in the desert for centuries. We certainly CANNOT use a caption that claims the shroud is an actual imprint of the face of Jesus. I am happy to say "An image on a 13th century cloth, believed by some to be an actual imprint of the face of Jesus." How about that? Wdford (talk) 11:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Wdford, Your idea continues to be non-NPOV. World Mysteries is totally independent and has this to say before all the recent debunking: the scientific community is divided over the shroud dates because -- with the exception of the carbon dating tests -- medical, artistic, forensic and botanical evidence favors the authenticity of the shroud of Turin as the burial cloth of Jesus. Now that scientists already changed their opinion on those radiocarbon tests, you have this: In 1988, carbon-14 dating was carried out on a fragment of the Shroud. The results date the fabric to between 1260 and 1390 A.D. The scientific community itself now questions these results, and more recent experimental studies have reopened the debate. [4] Historyprofrd is correct: you should not use your personal assertions. It's the sources, Mr. Wdford! Lafem (talk) 12:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Thanks to everyone. :) I like Ran9876's point. May I suggest a slight modification to what Ran9876 proposed: "Jesus' burial cloth (1st century) or religious painting (14th century)?"? Historyprofrd (talk) 12:45, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
  • "World Mysteries" is not remotely a reliable source - in fact, they specialize in promoting fringe topics - from crop circles to Vedic age flying machines, UFOs and Atlantis. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:49, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Something fishy is going on. There are a number of sleeper accounts that recently chimed in on this (that may be related in other matters as well). To everyone, please observe WP:MEAT and WP:SOCK, and familiarize yourself with what constitutes editing abuse. Thank you. -Andrew c [talk] 14:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't agree with you more! Slrubenstein | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Me too! Alrubenstein | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, an excellent point Slrubenbuber | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Well, I disagree completelyh and object to the obvious code word, "fish."Slrubenjaminstein | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Um WP:AGF he said fishy not fish and it is a perfectly valid expressiomn. And stick the point, he iss right! St. Agnostobiblestein | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Proposals for a caption

Would History or Lafem propose a precise caption for the image, to rival the already proposed caption, "Jesus after death, Shroud of Turin, radiocarbon-dated to c. 1300"? As long as they (?) only comment negatively on the latter proposal, we will get nowhere. Soidi (talk) 14:39, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

In view of the lack of response, I am moving this request down, so as to ensure it is not overlooked. Soidi (talk) 07:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Soidi, as I have said earlier, this is my preference, tweaking a bit what Ran9876 proposed: "Shroud of Turin: Jesus' burial cloth (1st c.) or religious painting (14th c.)?" Historyprofrd (talk) 08:14, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
No, that's a completely wrong dichotomy. There are many other alternatives than those two. If we want this image, it should be something like "The Shroud of Turin, attested since the 14th century, traditionally believed to show the face of Jesus after death" , or, to keep things simple, "The Shroud of Turin". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
"The Shroud of Turin", that was my original proposal. I agree with Schulz, for that is the simplest solution. Historyprofrd (talk) 09:29, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Either "The Shroud of Turin, a 13th century recreation of a 1st century burial shroud" (which is the mainstream view) or Stephen Schulz's first suggestion. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:40, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
I prefer "The Shroud of Turin, a 13th century artefact believed by some to show the face of Jesus after death". Wdford (talk) 13:35, 17 October 2009 (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogout&returnto=Talk:Jesus&returntoquery=action%3Dedit%26section%3D10
A. My first choice for the image

In case we are really talking about different things, we should perhaps first select the image to use. I think we should choose a style of caption similar to the style of the captions on the other images in the article. All the other captions indicate in the first place what is represented in the image. None of them gives first place to the canvas, wood, marble or other material that is the substratum of the image. For that reason I think it is unsuitable to begin with "The Shroud of Turin". For another reason, the caption "Shroud of Turin" would accompany rather an image of the whole of the Shroud, which, if legible, would be too big for placing in this article and which might well seem disproportionate in this article for other reasons too. If someone wants to see the full Shroud image, a wikilink will guide them. Soidi (talk) 14:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

We can call it the shroud of turin without showing the whole thing. It is importannt to include the name in order to have a link to the article; this is not done with other images because other images do not carry with them the same controversial claims. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Slr. Does anyone object to showing just the face? Soidi (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
The controversial claims are regarding its decoration, not the shroud itself. If the shroud is presented as a possible relic, then it will be false. The shroud is considered venerable by the Archbishop of Turin while he accepts its medieval origin. Links may be arranged without using "Shroud of Turin" as shown here: Proposed caption:
Shroud of Turin, painting is a Catholic venerability [5], anonymous, 13th or 14th century. St.Trond (talk) 19:55, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I prefer the Image A, with just the face. I don't think we should use a caption with "Catholic venerability" in it - there might well be other Christians outside the Catholic Church who also venerate the shroud. I would still go with "The Shroud of Turin, a 13th century artefact believed by some to show the face of Jesus after death". Wdford (talk) 21:53, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The shroud has been described in public as a venerability [6] by a Catholic Archbishop. That makes a difference from the majority view. St.Trond (talk) 06:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I think we can take it that Image A is preferred. I have therefore removed Image B. (Anyone who wishes to view it again can do so by looking up the versions of this Talk page between 14:18 on 17 October and now.)

What caption? The following are proposed:

A. Jesus after death, illustration on the Shroud of Turin (radiocarbon-dated to c. 1300)

Soidi's proposal, modified to take account of St Trond's alteration of the captions of the other images

B. Shroud of Turin: Jesus' burial cloth (1st c.) or religious painting (14th c.)

Historyprofrd's proposal

C. The Shroud of Turin, attested since the 14th century, traditionally believed to show the face of Jesus after death

Stephan Schulz's and Historyprofrd

D. The Shroud of Turin, a 13th century recreation of a 1st century burial shroud

Slrubinstein

E. The Shroud of Turin, a 13th century artefact believed by some to show the face of Jesus after death

Wdford

F. The Shroud of Turin

Historyprofrd and Stephan Schulz's

Have I omitted any concrete proposal?

Can we eliminate one or more of these proposals? Perhaps Historyprofrd, having given support to Proposal C, would now withdraw Proposal B. For my part, I think that Proposals D and E unnecessarily take an explicit position on the validity of the 1988 tests. What need do we have in this article to insist on their validity or their invalidity? Why not just state the fact of what the tests rightly or wrongly concluded, and leave judgement to the reader, with the help of wikilinks? Proposals A and C differ on the following points:

Proposal A is modelled on the other captions in the article and begins with a reference to an aspect of Jesus' life and death (or, if you insist, his legend), followed by an indication of the provenance of the image in question. Proposal C may be thought to present the image as an image of the Shroud of Turin, rather than an image of Jesus. (Proposals B, D and E do so more decidedly.)
Proposal A gives links to the two Wikipedia articles on the Shroud and on the 1988 tests. Proposal C, as it now stands, links only to the Shroud article (which may be quite enough). Soidi (talk) 21:41, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Soidi for taking time to sort these out. Just the face would be alright. I added option F: just plain Shroud of Turin. I agree with Soidi that Proposals D and E unnecessarily take a position on the validity of 1988 tests, and do not conform with Wikipedia policy. I suggest that they be stricken out. Proposal B can stay as I suppose we are not limited to one proposal as long as what we propose are within content policies. Historyprofrd (talk) 11:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Historyprofrd, do you mean you think you can veto choices? Nothing should be strucken out until there has been discussion. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:10, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I find A and F better than the rest, since A and F contain only (in my opinion) sourced information. I prefer A as it is more informative than F. St.Trond (talk) 15:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
The ball is in your court, slr. It's up to you to discuss that D and E do not "unnecessarily take a position on the validity of 1988 tests" as Soidi very well said, that D and E are balanced and not violations of NPOV. Historyprofrd (talk) 05:51, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
There has been no movement here, even after I discussed it in the talk page of slrubenstein. We can wait for another week. While waiting may I also request Soidi to explain why he thinks showing only one date (the radiocarbon date) and not another is not an unbalanced way of presenting available data on the Shroud, and therefore also contrary to NPOV. The other date (first century as Jesus' burial cloth) is held by many other scientists and two separate peer reviewed journals (the signals of what the scientific community is thinking) have come up with conclusions that the radiocarbon tests were mistaken. Plus the British leading expert on radiocarbon dating has stated that "There is a lot of other evidence that suggests to many that the Shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates have called for." Historyprofrd (talk) 09:39, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I've withdrawn my proposal to mention any date explicitly. What's in the article now says only "Shroud of Turin", with a wikilink to that article. Everyone seems to have accepted that that's enough for here. Soidi (talk) 10:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Okay, Soidi, thanks. That's good. :) Historyprofrd (talk) 10:57, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus burial ground

In the article with the first picture, it mentions that Jesus is buried in the Holy Sepulcher, this is incorrect as Jesus rose from the dead and his body and spirit ascended into heaven. This requires updating immediately.

Kind regards MariaAntonietta Ricciardi

contact email: ricciardi.ma@y7mail.com 27 October 2009 7.24pm added by MA Ricciardi

[edit] Muhammad as Jesus's "title"

I'm not sure why St Trond keeps reinserting this very fringe theory as if it were undisputed fact. Since the name Muhammad derives from the Arabic word for 'praise' (see Muhammad (name)) it's really rather meaningless to say that it's a "title" of Jesus if he happens to associated with praise. The theory that lies behind this is the "Muhammad myth" equivalent of the "Jesus myth" - which is fringe of fringe. The claim is that 'Muhammad' was no more than a title that became reified as an imagined founder-figure and author/receiver of the Koranic writings. No doubt some anti-Muslims like this idea, just as some anti-Christians like the Jesus myth idea, but that does not make it reliable or mainstream. Paul B (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The theory that lies behind what I find is claimed to be the mainstream Jesus theory, was to a large extent believed or decided by the communion of the Bishop of Rome. That means that it is also fringe of fringe. By the rest of one billion Catholics is it only accepted. St.Trond (talk) 14:28, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
You never actually seem to get what the "mainstream" theory of Jesus is. We deal here with scholarly views, not religious dogma. The mainstream scholarly view of Jesus is that he was an itinerant Jewish preacher/teacher who got crucified for being disruptive. The mainstream view of Muhammad is that he was an Arabic trader who believed that God was speaking to him, and who became a political and military leader on the basis of that. Neither of these mainstream views require that we believe either Jesus or Muhammad were actually spoken to by God, or were incarbations of God, or anything else. It's no different from the mainstream view of Zoroaster, or Mani, or David Koresh. If you want to believe God was speaking through these guys, it's up to you. But their existence is not really disputed. Paul B (talk) 18:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Your opinion on the mainstream theory (as you said), does not justify the inclusion of fringe theories. Antipastor (talk) 14:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
St Trond, please address the query that I put in this edit = this version of the article. It may have escaped your notice because quickly reverted by Antique Rose, who failed to see that there was no longer a case of "extreme fringe theory presented as undoubted fact". As well as my query, I added a source that called the theory just nonsense. Soidi (talk) 15:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi Soidi: It is only a reference in the book I referred to. I am sorry about that. The book it is referred to is this: [1] In this book you will find "Jesus als dem muhammad" several places, but the Dome of the Rock is quoted on pages 62-63. The book will be available also in English approximately at this time. St.Trond (talk) 19:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
There are many fringe theories that we don't include because they are far too minor (see P.N. Oak, for example). Adding more material to refute an utterly marginal view simply inflates it to something of significance - which it is not. Paul B (talk) 18:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
My intention was by no means to favour the insertion. I only wanted to indicate to St Trond that his theory has met with a strongly negative peer judgement and to mention my puzzlement at the first source he gave in support. On the latter question, I now take it that he really meant to refer to Christoph Luxenberg, Neudeutung der arabishen Inschrift im Felsendom zu Jerusalem, not to the book to which he gave (and has now again given) a link, but which is in English, not German. Soidi (talk) 21:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
My comments are based on this book: Die dunklen Anfänge: neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und frühen Geschichte, by Karl-Heinz Ohlig and Gerd-R. Puin. I can only say it is avialiable for reading on books.google.com. See pages 62-63. I will not try to copy the link anymore. St.Trond (talk) 09:06, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
This book represents the the maistream view, see also [2]. You won't find a serious, modern source that says anything else. They may disagree on why it was written, but not on that "Muhammad" was used about Jesus.St.Trond (talk) 21:23, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
I think this comment was meant for me. As was, I think, the comment of 4 November, which escaped my notice. The book referred to can easily be found on Google Books by putting in the title and the authors. It takes more than a Wikipedia editor's affirmation to have it accepted that Ohrig's theory is "the mainstream view". What does St Trond think of Daniel Birnstien's description of Ohlig's theory as "a far-fetched object of revisionist desire"? Soidi (talk) 22:34, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] improper synthesis

While imprecise, the tag of improper synthesis as it stands seems absurd. Can anyone honestly claim that original ideas about Jesus are being expressed in an article that is 120Kb long?

It smacks of wikipedian make-work and the article is locked, so I can't easily correct it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.22.241.88 (talk) 12:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll try again. Improper synthesis implies original research or original thought. The topic of this article, Jesus, has been the central figure in Western civilization for the majority of the common era. The few short sentences of the section in question relate nothing original, and it would be difficult to do so. Further, the section cites its sources for the ideas that are expressed. Finally, "improper synthesis?" appears after the section title, leaving unclear its intended object.

Please remove or justify the inclusion of the text "improper synthesis?" in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.22.241.88 (talk) 11:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Miracles of Jesus

I just noticed that Template:Miracles of Jesus, and a series of articles have been created (see also list Category:Miracles attributed to Jesus). I am mentioning this here because I figure it would be a good centralized location to discuss them (as I doubt many people are watching those newly created articles, if they are even aware of it).

I am mentioning this here at the parent article to see if there needs to be any centralized discussion (I have a few minor concerns) and more importantly, to see if anyone wants to help out improving these new sub-articles. -Andrew c [talk] 19:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this question to this "forum". I think it would help the articles much if they were based on reliable sources, and not on theological constructs. We should not forget the miracle it is to avoid historically reliable records with his history. St.Trond (talk) 20:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The reason I had to clean up the page Miracles attributed to Jesus was that it was full of errors and very short of references before I got to it. The counts of miracles were clearly wrong, the categorization was inconsistent and the table, which I have partially corrected, had many errors. And there were clear errors throughout in fact as items had been added over time with no references. What MUST be avoided here is to have "armchair commentators" just make suggestions for other people to do the work. As I suggested on the talk page there the ONLY solution to maintain quality in that article is to rename it to the "Miracles listed in the Gospels". The other "non Gospel" issues and historicity debates can get their own quality controlled page whenever those who have the time, effort and expertise to do it decide to roll up their sleeves and write that page. The list of miracles in the template came from the following sources that I added to that article:

  • Clowes, John, 1817, The Miracles of Jesus Christ published by J. Gleave, Manchester, UK
  • Lockyer, Herbert, 1988 All the Miracles of the Bible ISBN 0310281016
  • Maguire, Robert, 1863 The Miracles of Christ published by Weeks and Co. London
  • Trench, Richard Chenevix, Notes on the miracles of our Lord, London : John W. Parker, 1846
  • Van der Loos, H., 1965 The Miracles of Jesus, E.J. Brill Press, Netherlands
  • Warren W. Wiersbe 1995 Classic Sermons on the Miracles of Jesus ISBN 082543999X

I mean, there was this article about "miracles" and not one of these books about miracles was listed in it? It had to get cleaned up.

As to the historicity of the miracles, that can of course have a separate page just as there is a page on the Historical Jesus. The fact is that these article can sit there with rock bottom quality and inconsistencies for a long time, and they do need to get cleaned up. But they can NOT get cleaned up on the talk pages. In any case, for someone who wants to have a list of the miracles as reported in the New Testament, there needs to be a clean list. That means that the article name must change and those who want to write a quality article about the historicity of the miracles are totally welcome to do so. And that article will be fully linked to at the top of this article, which the two comments I received on the talk page has undergone pretty good renovation. I still need to clean up that table, for it needs real help. Now, for all those with free time on their hands to type on this talk page: "any one willing to make the table consistent"? And there is a table in Gospel harmony that also needs help for it is inconsistent. Any takers to clean up that table please so the two tables do not have errors? In fact, I was so fed up with the "errors by the people for the people" approach that I am now in the process of writing a program that will do that, as a next step in User:History2007/Improving_Wikipedia, so at last it will be less of Error-Pedia and more like Correct-pedia. The same principle can then apply to the rivers in Europe. Cheers. History2007 (talk) 20:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] New Testament titles and Crossan

The paragraph in the section "Names and titles in the New Testament" that quotes Crossan is puzzling. The first sentence is not explicitly sourced. Is Crossan the source? If so, the paragraph should begin: "The titles 'Divine' ... were each applied to the Roman emperors, according to John Dominic Crossan, who considers that ..." But the paragraph is in a section about names and titles in the New Testament. I don't think all those titles are given to Jesus in the New Testament. Is the first one, "Divine", a New Testament name or title for Jesus? Some (Jehovah's Witnesses in particular) may say that θεὀς, applied to Jesus in the New Testament, means "divine"; but the same people will then deny that the New Testament speaks of Jesus as "God". Where does the New Testament use for Jesus the title of Redeemer? It says he redeemed, but does not use "Redeemer" as a title or name, as it uses Christ/Messiah. I am convinced that "God from God", which sounds like a quotation from the Nicene Creed of 325, is not in the New Testament. Nor can I find in the New Testament "Prince of Peace", "Wonder Counsellor". It seems that Crossan was not in fact speaking of the New Testament, and the paragraph about what what he said should be removed. Soidi (talk) 21:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Discipleship

Re: this sentence: "Jesus speaks of the demands of discipleship, telling a rich man to sell his possessions and give the money to the poor." This is not correct. Jesus, in Mark 10:21, is not talking about discipleship. He is answering a rich man's question about how the latter can enter the kingdom of heaven. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.65.102 (talk) 23:41, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The masculinity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God

Jesus is depicted in most art as sickly and weak on the cross of crucifixtion.

However, It would stand to reason that crucifixtion is a "real man's" death and there could be nothing feminine about him on a cross, nor feeling sorry for himself as archives of fine art depict. He died like a man. If he whimpered it would have been inspirational. He was an inspirational "commander" to the centurion who heard him cry, and bowing to his authority, they watched him die and praised him as a vivacious man of deific power...and envious to be like him...or afraid of what the power meant.

He was a man. In anatomy, in passion, in knowledge. He was not effeminate. He was nothing like a woman...yet women flocked to him. A male in anatomy...died a virgin...consumated the greatest marriage in his death, the union of God and his people. Christ was effective in death. Christ once killed. And now? Unkillable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.146.158 (talk) 02:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

This is not a forum for general discussion of Jesus. Any such messages will be deleted or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Jesus at the Reference desk, discuss relevant Wikipedia policy at the Village pump, or ask for help at the Help desk.

[edit] Encyclopedia Britannica Online

"Jesus Christ". This looks like a useful online article for an informed, neutral viewpoint. Leadwind (talk) 05:21, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

You have to pay for that... --Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 23:43, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
You can't follow the link? EBO gave me the impression that I could post a link and even people without access could follow it. No? Leadwind (talk) 14:56, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Flower Child

In vivid descriptions, many people claim Jesus (the son of god) had broadly long hair and a beard exceeding 5 inches in length. Today, this would definately resemble what is known as a Flower child. However, I do not feel he would get along very well the hippies and so I must conclude that he is not a Flower Child. South Bay (talk) 05:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] "Recognized"?!

In the following sentence Jesus is recognized as the Son of God and as God incarnate. Christians also view him as the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. However, Judaism rejects these claims; Islam considers Jesus a prophet and also the Messiah; the term "recognized" lends editorial legitimacy to the claim he is what the Christians claim he is, something that of course cannot be proven. Instead of "recognized" I suggest we use the same term used just below to refer to the views of the Jews, "consider." Thus the two terms will balance each other and the paragraph will be neutral, rather than pro-Christian. Haiduc (talk) 11:21, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem is the passive voice. If we replace it with the active voice and make it clear whose view is being expressed we would be fine. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:25, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure. For example, we both meet Einstein in the street, you recognize him, I don't. Thus, this choice of words implies that those who do not recognize him are deficient somehow. Haiduc (talk) 16:39, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Recognize can be neutral or non-neutral depending on the context. An example "They do not recognize the truth!" is non-neutral, and from what I gather it is the connotation that you are interpreting from the text of the article. It can, however, have different connotations, such as official recognition of something, a.e. "Saudi Arabia does not acknowledge the statehood of Israel" (which for the life of me I couldn't think of a better less-controversial example so do forgive me) the point being, however, that while it can be neutral, devoid of describing a specific point of view, it does not seem to be currently. Peter Deer (talk) 16:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't see any harm in using a term not prone to misinterpretation. Here "recognize" could be taken either way. Haiduc (talk) 23:15, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Haiduc is stacking the deck: "we both meet Einstein in the street, you recognize him, I don't" - you start off saying he really is Einstein. That is like you have said Jesus really is son of God and Jews just do not recognize that. This may be what you think, but it is not what the article says. The article says Christians recognize him as Son of Gd, Jews do not. That is like saying "we both meet a man in the street, you recognize him as Einstein I do not." Is he Einstein? That is your view. It is not my view. Is Jesus son of God? That is your view, it is not my view. Wikipedia articles provide only views. Please do not start off assuming Jesus is God incarnate. All this article says is that Christians view him as such, non-Christians do not.
You say "recognize" can be taken both ways. Well, I am open to your suggesting less equivocal words, and let's see what others say. But I think no matter what word we use people who already think Jesus is son of God will continue to think that, and those who do not, will continue not to Slrubenstein | Talk 00:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
While we quibbled, a divine force edited the article and fixed the problem. Haiduc (talk) 01:08, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV: Jesus claims to be God

There are many nt scholars who said that jesus claimed to be God. These should also be added, including the actual quotes

http://books.google.com.ph/books?hl=en&q=divinity%20of%20jesus%20christ&sa=N&tab=sp

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/christ-divinity.htm

http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/historical-Jesus/DaVinci/HJ-davinci-was-jesus-divinity-invented-in-the-fourth-centuary.htm

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/iamwhatiam.html

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/miscclaims.html

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaimshub.html

You have Rabbi Neusner, Joseph Ratzinger, etc.

Well then cite them? I don't see the problem. Peter Deer (talk) 08:32, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
    • Citing Tektonics.org would probably create more NPOV issues than the 7 scholars we are currently citing. Tektonics.org isn't a reliable source because it is self-published, and doesn't have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. With that said, if we start off a sentence "Many New Testament scholars argue that", it seems to imply a dichotomy, where in this case we are leaving out the other side. So if we have some WP: RS to add, then all means simply add a balancing sentence. -Andrew  c  [talk] 14:15, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Whether or not Jesus said he was God is a hot-button issue. Certainly mny theologicans and clerics believe he did. Some scholars do not doubt that he says this in the Gospels but do not consider the Gospels wholely reliable accounts of what Jesus really said. And finally, some scholars - like Geza Vermes - believe he may have said something like this but did not mean what people claim he meant. I have no problem with this article saying there is a controvery and linking to another article, he question is where to do this. I think it comes up under names and titles of God and reliable sources on this view perhaps are best discussed there. I have often said we ought to have much better articles on the Gospels or even specific Gospels, drawing on the Anchor Bible and other works to go into real detail concern debates n datingg and authorship, reliability, and thn interpreting key passages. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:48, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
The more it is a hot-button issue, the more the article should be neutral. As it is the article is badly one-sided. I will add balancing side. Thanks to Andrew and Peter Deer. In fact there are vastly more scholars who agree that Jesus claimed to be God. Kleinbell (talk) 03:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
I intend to put under one footnote the seven footnotes (authentic ref bombing!!) presently shown, and introduce another footnote with another set of refs. Kleinbell (talk) 05:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

What is important is not the quantity of sources (scholars) but the quality. I would start with Geza Vermes, whose scholarship is impeccable, and work out from there - Sanders, Meier, Crossan, Frederickson, Ehrmann, and so on. Why pick Neusner, he is a Talmud scholar, not an expert on Jesus or the New Testament ... Michael Cook would be a much better source as he is actually an expert on the NT. I mean, why not ask Oprah Winfrey what she thinks? This is not the place for a general survey, let us start with the best scholars. Neutrality is achieved by finding the best sources, without prejudice, and then reporting whatever they say, whether we agree with them or not. I think anyone who teaches a university course on Jesus will agree that i just named the top scholars in the field. Slrubenstein | Talk 07:39, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Vermes is an apostate and is not reliable. Kleinbell (talk) 05:01, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Neither Apostasy nor belief automatically imply unreliability. Géza Vermes is a highly regarded scholar. --195.4.169.224 (talk) 08:18, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Umm... that's funny, because we'll surely have people on the other side saying Christian scholars obviously can't be neutral or reliable either. We shouldn't have personal litmus tests on scholars we like and don't like in terms of including in this article. We should scan the literature, find majority views, and the leading scholars. We shouldn't write people off based on their religious beliefs (this goes both ways). This is the heat of WP:NPOV, and I'm shocked that Kleinbell would suggest as much. Please reconsider. -Andrew  c  [talk] 16:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
The idea was to tell slrubenstein that rabbi neusner is better than vermes in terms of objectivity..third party is always better in a controversy...but I agree what's important are leading scholars, whether believer or not..am not expert so will put something and then just add or subtract. Kleinbell (talk) 05:13, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Why on earth would you wish to tell me that? Neusner is an expert on the Talmud, Vermes is an expert on Jesus. I have no idea what you mean by "third party is always better than a controversy, " I prefer to stick to Wikipedia policy: we include all significant views from reliable sources. Vermes is not the only expert on Jesus - Sanders, Crossan, Meier, Fredricksen are at least as significant. But he is just as reliable as they are, his scholarship is considered impeccable even by people who do not entirely share his conclusions. I am glad you wish to contribute to this page but if you are not an expert perhaps you would benefit from taking some time to learn, at least, who the real experts are. What matters are not Vermes (or Meier's) personal beliefs. What matters is their qualifications as scholars, and the rigor and honesty of their scholarship. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:48, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Just to chime in here, the best current Jesus scholars (Sanders, Vermes, Crossan) concur that Jesus didn't claim to be God, a conclusion backed up by the fact that the first Christians didn't consider him to be God either. Leadwind (talk) 14:55, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I have two problems with Kleinbell's edit. First, if what Leadwind says is true, then we have weight issues. We cannot present two opposing views as equal, if one is clearly the majority view (but again, that hinges ultimately on the sources, which I am taking Leadwind's word on). My other, more significant issue, is that Kleinbell did not cite a single historian, yet this section is clearly part of the historical views section. Furthermore, the sources cited represent an orthodox Catholic theological approach. The first two sources are clearly such. The latter made me think for a second because it contains the word "historical" in the title. It would help if Kleinbell added page numbers to citations (generally speaking), and specifically that would help me figure out whether Gerald O'Collins is making actual historical arguments or not. I can tell that he is "a Jesuit who teaches at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, " and/or "Research Professor of Theology at St Mary's University College, Twickenham, and Honorary Adjunct Professor of Australian Catholic University". It isn't clear he has any specialization or background in history. Judging by these sources, at the very least, I feel that Kleinbell's addition should be prefaced with more descriptive language, something like "Catholic theologians agree that..." But on further thought, I personally would not include the opinion of Catholic theologians in the history section. We don't need the opinion of Mormon scholars, we don't need the opinion of armchair atheists, etc (that is not to say that we not include historians who happen to be Catholic, Mormon, or atheist, etc. that distinction is importnat). We need notable views, from leading scholars (or notable minorities). When I think of Catholic and historical Jesus, I think Ray Brown and John Meier. I'll dig out my Meier and see if he covers this topic.-Andrew  c  [talk] 16:14, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Neusner is a historian of theology. http://www.jacobneusner.com/add/resume.htm, http://www.google.com.ph/search?q=jacob+neusner+historian&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org. mozilla: en-US: official&client=firefox-a&safe=active Kleinbell (talk) 00:57, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I tend to think this is really a doctrinal issue that is often paraded as a historical one. Those who want to support thier doctrine will find scriptural support for it regardless of what it is. Much of what we recognize as mainstream Christianity did not become mainstream until decades, if not hundreds of years, after the death of Jesus.
What is far easier is to approach the topic from a position of different doctrinal beliefs about Jesus and how they evolved. Does that make sense? -StormRider 01:52, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I've added these in the footnotes: Martin Hengel, The Son of God: The Origin of Christology and the History of Jewish-Hellenistic Religion (Wipf & Stock Publishers 2007); Robert M. Bowman, Jr., Ed Komoszewski, Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ (Kregel 2007). Kleinbell (talk) 07:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Neusner is irrelevant. He should not be used as a source in this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:46, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
What about page numbers? -Andrew  c  [talk] 16:14, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I removed the edit - the section already makes it clear that some believe Jesus was God (which by the way is neither a name or a title, I think) and as Andrew c pointed out, this is in a section on the views of historians; Christian views are already provided in the section on Christian views. I do not see why Christian views have to be in the section on Christian views and in the section on historians' views. No major historian who actively works on the subject thinks Jesus believed himself to be God; it is a fringe view if even that. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:35, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Pardon me for saying so, but I find that dubious, considering a great portion of historians who focus on Christ are, uncoincidentally, Christian. Not to be rude, but I'd like to know what your basis for this particular statement is. Peter Deer (talk) 19:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I have no problem accepting a Jewish, Christian, or Muslim historian of Jesus as a modern or critical historian as long as I kniow that they are suspending or brackdeting their religious beliefs. A great deal of the historians who focus on Jesus either do just this, or do not call themselves Christians. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:27, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Regardless, I think my point still stands that the belief that Jesus claimed to be God is actually an extremely popular one, not a fringe theory, and is expounded upon in hundreds if not thousands of theological treatises. Whether the logic behind that is sound is not the concern of this article, what matters is if there is significant verifiable third-party information on the subject. Peter Deer (talk) 22:36, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Are you saying these theological treatises are written by historians and therefore this content should go in the historical views section? Or are you suggesting that we introduced religious POVs into the historical view section? or am I missing your point completely? I agree completely that "the belief that Jesus claimed to be God is actually an extremely popular one". But religious belief shouldn't be presented in a historical view section, nor do we introduce Jewish views in the Christian views section, or historical views in the New Testament plot summary section. The article has sort of compartmentalized POVs, for better or worse. And I just am trying to figure out what you are proposing (if anything). Thanks! -Andrew  c  [talk] 00:03, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
What is in dispute is what Jesus said, and its implication. The rationality was that the claim that Jesus claimed He was God was a fringe theory, denoting that its notability is exaggerated or less significant. I am saying that it is not an insignificant or rare viewpoint, and am not commenting in any sense on its historical basis or correctness, only its notability (that is to say the abundance of the third-party material on the subject). What was exactly said tends to be generally accepted as being sourced to the Gospels, but the third-party sources tend to be in contention as to whether the statements made constitute a claim to being God, and there is a significant number of sources that claim that He did. Thus, it is neither fringe nor undue weight, it's just one popular viewpoint. If it is not currently sourced with suitable citations, then as far as I am concerned it is fine to remove it until it is. Peter Deer (talk) 01:17, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Agree with Peter Deer. The problem is also one of structure: the Christian view is being separated from the historical view, as if any theological idea has no basis in history. That is POV, the POV that Jesus is only a Christ of faith. And Wikipedia should be NPOV. This is the underlying point of this section. And it is also a fact that these books are written by people who are also historians. I have proven that Neusner is also a historian and slrubenstein just stomps his foot down without any opposing proof. He seems to think this is his own article. But remember Martin Hengel is a historian of religion, and an outstanding NT scholar. And he wrote a powerful book on this topic. Slrubenstein has not even given any counter proof. I propose he should stop editing so that he detaches himself from this article first. He evidently has a tremendous bias that is blinding him. I say an Admin should come in. Kleinbell (talk) 11:22, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with Kleinbell that he should stop editing so that he detaches himself from this article first. He evidently has a tremendous bias that is blinding him. I say an Admin should come in. Let us ask an admin if this article excludes the view that Jesus said he was God. If he was God, why would he not have said it? This article MUST include this view. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:16, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, an "admin". Irony perhaps. First of all, both Slrubenstein, and myself are admins. Second of all, on Wikipedia, admins have no more additional editorial power than anyone else. You are welcome to seek WP:DR such as WP:3O or WP:RFC. But regular ol' editors, even anonymous IP editors have equal say in content disputes. Admins have no special editorial oversight. Or if that was the case, you'd listen to the two admins already involved in this discussion; P Next, I hate to keep repeating myself, but Kleinbell, can you please cite page numbers, and perhaps write up your proposed text and citations here. Part of WP:BRD is bringing a reverted bold edit to the talk page. We've been discussing it here, but it may help other editors if they can a) see the text and citations and b) know WHAT PAGES the arguments are made in those sources. Thanks! -Andrew  c  [talk] 13:35, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Peter, "the belief that Jesus claimed to be God is actually an extremely popular one, not a fringe theory, and is expounded upon in hundreds if not thousands of theological treatises. " Exactly. Keep that material in the theology section and leave historical analysis in the history section. The mainstream historical view is that Jesus didn't claim to be God. Leadwind (talk) 18:45, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Pardon me, but just how did you determine that one viewpoint was "historical" and another viewpoint was "theological" and thus should not be kept in the historical section? It would seem to me that they are both arguing over the same basis, and simply reached different conclusions. To say that one is "historical" because "historians say" but then discount the historians that say otherwise as their beliefs is nakedly POV. Peter Deer (talk) 20:49, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

From you, Pete, from you: "Regardless, I think my point still stands that the belief that Jesus claimed to be God is actually an extremely popular one, not a fringe theory, and is expounded upon in hundreds if not thousands of theological treatises. " Thanks for clearing that up, Pete. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:13, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
So therefore because I used the word "theological" that's your reasoning by determining that any viewpoint in that matter is theology, not history, and any treatise on the theological material espousing the opposite opinion on the same subject is historical, not theoligical? That's not really particularly logical, it's really just mincing my words to support your argument. Peter Deer (talk) 07:27, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Logos. I've been following with considerable interest this chain of comments and have looked up many cited sources. I've come across a Christology source from one of my former professors and am adding it to the stack for consideration. Afaprof01 (talk) 00:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

The Fourth Gospel may give answer to three groups: Jews, Gnostics, and followers of John the Baptist.

  • Jews. To the rabbis who spoke of the Torah (Law) as preexistent, as God's instrument in creation, and is the source of light and life, John replied that these claims apply rather to the Logos.
  • Gnostics. To the Gnostics who would deny a real incarnation, John' s answer was most emphatic: "the Word became flesh" (1:14).
  • Followers of John the Baptist. To those who stopped with John the Baptist, he made it clear that John was not the Light but only witness to the Light (1:6 ff.).
Although the term Logos is not retained as a title beyond the prologue, the whole book of John presses these basic claims. As the Logos, Jesus Christ is God in self-revelation (Light) and redemption (Life). He is God to the extent that he can be present to man and knowable to man. The Logos is God (John 1:1), and the risen Christ is worshiped by Thomas, who fell at his feet saying, "My Lord and my God" (20:28). Yet the Logos is in some sense distinguishable from God, for "the Logos was with God" (1:1). God and the Logos are not two beings, and yet they are also not simply identical. In contrast to the Logos, God can be conceived (in principle at least) also apart from his revelatory action -- although we must not forget that the Bible speaks of God only in his revelatory action. The paradox that the Logos is God and yet it is in some sense distinguishable from God is maintained in the body of the Gospel. That God as he acts and as he is revealed does not "exhaust" God as he is, is reflected in settings attributed to Jesus: (I and the Father are one" (10:30) and also, "the Father is greater than I" (14:28). the Logos is God active in creation, revelation, and redemption. Jesus Christ not only gives God's Word to us humans (17:14); he is the Word (1:14; 14:6). He is the true word─ultimate reality revealed in a Person. The Logos is God, distinguishable and thought yet not separable in fact.

– Frank Stagg, New Testament Theology, Broadman, 1962. ISBN: 978-0805416138

Thanks. Afaprof01 (talk) 00:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for what? We all accept that the author of the Gospel of John claims these things. The issue is whether the historical Jesus did. If these words are typical, Stagg never claims that he did. Paul B (talk) 00:36, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
"Thanks for what?" "Thanks for" considering Stagg's points objectively and for being appreciative to another editor who took considerable time to type up the above quotes as possibly relevant in some small way to the extensive discussion that has taken place in this section. Hopefully, that's what you meant; it just didn't come across that way. Afaprof01 (talk) 01:11, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
I have been objective and have clearly explained that Stagg's points are about the Gospel of John, not assertions about the historical Jesus. Most historians consider John to be an essentially theological text with little reliable historical evidence about Jesus himself. Notice Stagg's use of phrases like "settings [should that be 'sayings'] attributed to Jesus". Paul B (talk) 10:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Afaprof01, given how sensible and clear Paul B's comments are, I'd suggest you share this at the Christology article, or the article on the Gospel according to John - this material is interesting, but it is about Christians more than it is about Jesus. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:01, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Paul, "We all accept that the author of the Gospel of John claims these things." Actually, this quote is from 1962. There's been a lot of work done since then. Not only does the gospel of John misrepresent Jesus, but this quote misrepresents the gospel of John. These days, a university textbook is more likely to say that the beloved disciple believed Jesus to be Philo's Logos, but not God. Leadwind (talk) 18:20, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
I doubt that you are entirely right, but that's a matter of detail. You are of course correct that Stagg is not as up to date a source as we would wish, but even he is clear that 'logos' and 'God' are not simply synonyms. Paul B (talk) 16:31, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Existence

Well obviously people have mentioned the non-existence of Jesus before, but there is still a problem when there is no mention of it. If the topic has been mentioned enough times to have a place on the "FAQ" list, then why is there still no place in the article that mentions that there is supposedly a debate on whether or not a single man named Jesus Christ actually ever existed? This is the most important thing to include in the article, because anything else you could possibly mention will only be an extended elaboration on something every English-speaking human being is already aware of... whereas the point of reading parts of an encyclopedia is generally to learn something new.Rayvn (talk) 08:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Because of WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE, that's why. Peter Deer (talk) 14:55, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Actually, not to be short or rude, but have you read the article? see Jesus#Mythical view. We DO have a section on that view specifically. Not sure what your complaint is because there clearly is a place in the article that mentions that there is supposedly a debate on whether or not a single man named Jesus Christ actually ever existed. And you didn't even have to read the whole article to find it. It is clearly a section in the table of contents (not to mention footnote 11 in the lead).-Andrew c [talk] 15:36, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


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