Talk:Jews

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For prior discussions of the infobox in the top right corner of the article, please visit Talk:Jews/infobox.


Proposal: Change David Ben Gurion with Golda Meir[edit]

Hi,

First of all, I must say the current collage is brilliant. It's not overcrowded, and the fact that it's 3 lines of 3 allows to save space on width yet use larger images. The selection is also brilliant. I love the fact Sholem Aleichem was used, the most important Yiddish writer, and Marc Chagall, the greatest Jewish painter. I also love the balance between Ashkenazi and Sephardi & Mizrahi Jews. 2 Sephardic Jews out of 9, which is very fair if you look at the percentage of Sephardi Jews out of world Jewry in general (which is around 20%). My opinion is don't change anything. One of the best collages I've seen on Wikipedia.

I have one suggestion which is: Insert Golda Meir instead of David Ben Gurion. Reason: Both are Prime Ministers of Israel and represent the same thing. However, Golda Meir is a woman, which will help the male/female balance.

If the consensus will approve it, then we can do what was done on the Russian Jews and Ukrainian Jews pages, which is put a woman in the center of every line and make it look better in terms of esthetics. That is, there will be 3 lines of 3, and a woman in the middle of every line.

If you approve it, it will look like that:

This page is about the Jewish people. For their religion, law and culture, see Judaism.
"Jew" redirects here. For other uses, see Jew (disambiguation).

{{Infobox ethnic group |group = Jews |native_name = Hebrew: יהודים‎ (Yehudim)

|image =

Maimonides
Emmy Noether
Baruch Spinoza
Sholem Aleichem
Golda Meir
Franz Kafka
Albert Einstein
Natalie Portman
Marc Chagall

I know what a strong consensus this collage received when it was made, and I am fully aware I can't do any changes without getting this change approved here by a consensus. 90.198.246.7 (talk) 22:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I for one agree. Debresser (talk) 21:27, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
As do I. The substitution and rearrangement looks like a desirable enhancement. Hertz1888 (talk) 09:10, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

No. of Jews in Iran[edit]

I want to make a change to the number of Jewish people in Iran. According to the Tehran Jewish Community(Iran) There are about 25000 to 35000 Jews in Tehran and other cities of Iran. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikimkh (talkcontribs) 22:51, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source i don't see a problem to combine it with the current source (i.e 8,756-35,000). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Infantom (talkcontribs) 18:41, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Correction[edit]

The current article, in the sub-section "Ethnic Divisions," wrongly states twice in that section, "The Teimanim from Yemen and Oman, etc." To the best of my knowledge, Jews as a group have never lived in Oman, although individual Jewish travelers may have passed through there. The word "Oman" should be deleted from the section, since Teimanim (or Yemenite Jews) is a generic term implying only those communities who lived in Yemen and in the Aden-Hadramawt region, but NOT in Oman.Davidbena (talk) 00:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Infobox portraits[edit]

Sorry for my English. I suggest adding Ovadia Yosef. As of now, there's two European Sephardim and seven Ashkenazim in Infobox, without any Middle Eastern Mizrahi. Iraqi Jews were very important Jewish community, and Yosef may represent it.

Secondly, he was a rabbi. In current collage only Maimonides was particularly engaged with Judaism, and he lived in the Middle Ages. Spinoza was critical of Judaism, and the rest are completely secular. Yosef was a prominent modern Jewish scholar.

Thirdly, he could fill the chronological gap. Now it's two medieval Jews, followed by 6 people born in second half of the 19th century, and then immediately Natalie Portman.

And finally, only two Israelis at the moment: Ben-Gurion and Portman, with the latter lived in the US for the most of her life, as far as I know.--Triggerhippie4 (talk) 15:58, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I suggest replace Sholem Aleichem, since he's a writer and we already have Kafka.--Triggerhippie4 (talk) 16:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

No problem here. Debresser (talk) 18:53, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree with the basic idea of increasing the diversity, and propose to replace one of the writers by a musician like Leonard Bernstein, Gustav Mahler, or Felix Mendelssohn. However, not sure whom, Kafka or Sholem Aleichem. Sholem Aleichem wrote in Yiddish and focused on genuine Jewish topics. On the other hand he is already in included in three other collages, Ashkenazy Jews, Russian Jews, and Ukrainian Jews, while Kafka is so far only in Czech Jews. Sholem Aleichem is of course not the only one: The same is true for Einstein and Chagall. So what is better? Always choose the one who fits best, or spread different persons over different collages? --Off-shell (talk) 21:55, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
When I suggested to replace Sholem Aleichem I meant with Ovadia Yosef. see above why.--Triggerhippie4 (talk) 22:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
If Spinoza was critical of Judaism, so why not replace him with Yosef, a Sephardi rite rabbi? As 90.198.246.7 pointed above, the current ratio of Sephardi to Ashkenazi in the collage roughly corresponds to the percentage of each community in the world Jewry. And if we choose Bernstein instead of one of the writers, this will also be someone born in 20th century. --Off-shell (talk) 22:14, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I was too fast with my remarks. I looked through the page of Yosef which I was not aware of before. If it's all true what is written there I think he is a too controversial figure to be included in the collage. --Off-shell (talk) 22:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
He was controversial, but I don't think that anybody disagrees he was the most important Sephardic leader of the last few decades. Whatever else they may think of his viewpoints. Debresser (talk) 23:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
When living in Israel I got the impression Kadoori is much more accepted then him, they accepted Ovadia as the spiritual leader of the fundamentalist Shas party, but that's because we started it. But does it make sense to include a controversial, even ridiculous figure from Israeli politics in a collage representing world Jewry? And besides, both are completely unnecessary in the collage. Mizrahi-Sephardic Jews are represented correctly in proportion to their population among world Jewry. Kadurie and Yosef are unknown internationally.Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 15:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I completely oppose replacing Sholem Aleichem with Ovadia Yosef! Sholem Aleichem represents Ashkenazi culture, he represents Yiddish which for centuries serves as the language of the Ashkenazi Jews. I oppose to include Ovadia Yosef as he is unknown outside Israel and even in Israel his remarks gave him a reputation of a clown (even among many Sephardi circles). Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 15:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I think adding more people and replacing stuff will just make it more complicated. I personally think - always pick the best one, if one person is in few collages it's fine. It's not big, it's very clean, it has the correct balance between Ashkenazi and Sephardi-Mizrahi Jews... and I think the selection is actually very good.
One thing is sure, even if changes ever will be made it has to be Jews with international recognition, and definitely not clowns like Ovadia Yosef (who gained fame in Israel as a character in comedy sketches by those mocking him for his weird comments). Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 07:45, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Jews
Maimonides
Baruch Spinoza
Albert Einstein
Emmy Noether
Franz Kafka
David Ben-Gurion
Marc Chagall
Ovadia Yosef
Natalie Portman

Ok, here's my final proposal. Ovadia Yosef instead of Sholem Aleichem, entries sorted by birth date, and better pictures. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 07:37, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Triggerhippie4, you neither responded to my objections, nor implemented any of the changes proposed by others. So I repeat my proposal here in a more clear way:
1. Whoever is chosen to represent the Mizrahim, this person should replace Spinoza, and not Sholem Alechem, to maintain a ratio approximately corresponding to the proportion of Ashkenazi and Sephardi in the world. This was noted by 90.198.246.7 above, and I support this argument.
2. I do not support the inclusion of Ovadia Yosef, but I'm not qualified to propose an alternative. Since he was a controversial figure, this choice needs a broad consensus.
3. If you want to remove Sholem Alechem and keep Kafka, I accept it, but propose Leonard Bernstein as a substitute.
4. It was also proposed by 90.198.246.7 to replace Ben Gurion by Golda Meir to improve the female/male ratio. I also support this proposal.
--Off-shell (talk) 18:27, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
1. Firstly, as I said at the very beginning, Maimonides and Spinoza were Sephardi, Yosef was Mizrahi. There's three major Jewish divisions: Ashkenazi, Sephardi (Southern Europe/Maghreb) and Mizrahi (Middle East), with the latter is unrepresented in the Infobox, which is not right considering how important Jews of Iraq were in history. Secondly, Ashkenazi not always constituted majority of Jewry, but for around last 3 centuries. In Infobox, broadly speaking, Maimonides and Spinoza portraying the Middle Ages, when Sephardi accounted for the majority. Next goes Ashkenazim since their population outnumbered the rest. But since the second half of the 20th century non-Ashkenazi population has grown. So you got to keep historical perspective in mind. Current collage gives impression that all Jews since the times of Spinoza were Ashkenazi.
2. I wouldn't say he was that controversial, given he was a religious leader.
3. I don't want to remove Sholem Aleichem per se. I just want to add Yosef. That means someone should be removed. I think that should be Aleichem. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 02:35, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Triggerhippie4 Mizrahi are considered by all but themselves, perhaps, to be simply part of Sepharadim, so that argument I disagree with. As to the crux of the matter. Having Yosef seems like good idea to me as well. I have no problem with replacing Sholem Aleichem, but am open to suggestions for other people to replace. Debresser (talk) 18:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Mizrahis and Sephardis today are classified as one community, I have to say. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 15:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi there mates, i believe there are lot of important/famous jews that needs to be in the infobox. If you take a look at another ethnic group like British people, you will see that there are more than 9 inviduals. Why dont we expand the infobox. kazekagetr 10:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The reason is that the Jewish ethnic group has too many sub-groups, so that collage was always kept to minimum, while the "big numbers" were left to the more "specific" collages (like Ashkenazi Jews, Mizrahis, etc). Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 21:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Why not one of the Sassoon or Kadourie families, like Horace Kadoorie, who are more famous, and did more for their communities than the highly dubious Yosf Ovadia. If you want a Mizrachi rabbi the tradition abounds with great figures, Elijah Mizrachi etc. As to politicians why not Benjamin Disraeli, who covers (a)England (b) achieved against prejudice its highest political office (3) in literature he was no mean novelist, his Sybil, Or The Two Nations in particular was a landmark work. Nishidani (talk) 14:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Kadoorie and Mizrachi no more notable than Yosef and have no images to use. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 21:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't think Kadorie or Yosef should be in! The Rambam is in the image, he represents the Mizrahis and Sephardis. The fact is those two communities are united today! Also, Yosef and Kadorie are not known anywhere but Israel! Mizrahis go to Sephardi synagogues, use the Sephardi Nosach, and see themselves as Sephardi, there is a reason they are seen as one and even listed as one in Israel. I mean all the big Mizrahi communities came from Spain anyway! Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 21:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I completely oppose to removing Sholem Aleichem. The guy is the only representative of Yiddish culture in the collage, the language which a big part of the Jews used for centuries as their main language.
I also oppose including Ovadia Yosef, a figure famous only in Israel, and even there he is seen as a clown by most for his comments.
I personally think the current collage is fine. Specific changes can be discussed, but we should remember that the trick is to represent as many areas as possible.
Also, the balance right now between Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews is correct. There is no need to have more Sephardia as it will be more than their percentage share in the population. Mizrahis go to Sephardi synagogues, use the Sephardi Nosach, and see themselves as Sephardi, there is a reason they are seen as one and even listed as one in Israel. I mean all the big Mizrahi communities came from Spain anyway! Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 15:13, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I actually think the current collage is perfect. I mean, we have a perfect balance between Ashkenazi Jews (over 80% of the world Jewry) and Sephardi-Mizrahi Jews have 2 slots, which is a higher percentage of their numbers in world Jewry. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 07:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I completely oppose adding Ovadia Yosef, it will make a mockery out of the collage, there is a reason he was removed. That is the guy who said Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews, Arabs should be killed and that you can't pick your nose on a Saturday. The guy is considered a joke in Israel. Kadoorie, unlike him, is respected and seen as a genius in the Kharedi community (and respected by secular Jews). Also, he is famous only in Israel, abroad no one even heard oh him. Ask a Jew from New York or Moscow, there obviously are more notable figures.

The point of the collage is to represent as many areas as possible. In such a small collage there is no need for more than one rabbi, that is all you need to represent rabbis.

About the comment only two Israelis are in the collage... I think two is enough. Through history most Jews did not live in Israel, and even today most of them live abroad, so it is completely find to have only two Israelis in the collage. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 15:08, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think Kadorie or Yosef should be in! The Rambam is in the image, he represents the Mizrahis and Sephardis. The fact is those two communities are united today! Also, Yosef and Kadorie are not known anywhere but Israel! Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 21:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Technically, Portman is both American and Israeli, so there is a third Israeli in the collage. I agree with the argument made by Mr. Sort It Out that Sholom Aleichem should be kept. Debresser (talk) 21:31, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Very good point! To be honest, I actually love the collage the way it is now. I think it is very "clean" and rational, I don't think it makes much sese to change it. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 07:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The English Ovadia Yosef page doesn't show even half of it. And a bit more on Ovadia Yosef. He is the guy who said:

  • Ashkenzi Jews are not real Jews but Khazars.
  • It's allowed to kill a secular person for calling Yeshiva students "parasites".
  • IDF soldiers who don't keep Shabbas "it's no wonder they get killed".
  • In 2000 he actually said that the Holocaust was God's way of revenging on Ashkenazi Jews for becoming Secular.
  • He said that women are good only for sewing.
  • He is the guy who said Arabs should be annihilated.

Needless to say, the guy managed to alienate himself from the vast majority of the Israeli population. Not only the Secular and Ashkenazi, but even most Mizrahi Jews. Most of his "fame" later came from comedy sketches making fun of his character.

Now here is my question, why would anyone would want to add a character who is completely anonymous outside of Israel, and is considered a laughing stock by most, for a collage about Jews? Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 19:27, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I also opposed the inclusion of Ovadia Yosef, but I also think, there is no need for two writers / prosaists in the collage. Therefore I proposed (s. above) to replace one of them, either Kafka or Sholem Aleichem, with someone from a different field, e.g. Leonard Bernstein. Alternatively, I would also propose Janusz Korczak to have someone related to the Holocaust. --Off-shell (talk) 22:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
I am fine with Bernstein. Shalom Aleichem should be kept, as argued above. Debresser (talk) 23:23, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree with replacing Kafka, but what composer should we use? Does it have to be Bernstein? Maybe someone more mainstream like Bob Dylan? Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 22:27, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Culture section[edit]

What do you think about adding a section on Jewish culture that contains sub sections with short summaries and links to main articles about Jewish cultural characteristic as literature, philosophy, mythology etc... ? Infantom (talk) 17:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Tradition versus history[edit]

Aspects of the article appear to present tradition as historical fact: eg, in the introduction

The first of these periods lasted from 1350[35] to 586 BCE, and encompassed the periods of the Judges, the United Monarchy, and the Divided Monarchy of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, ending with the destruction of the First Temple.

I think it would be well to clearly indicate when the information presented is supported only by religious tradition, rather than by secular history. Ordinary Person (talk) 08:44, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You would first have to determine whether this article covered the religion or something else. Efforts to date have not been successful—with various editors attempting to cast dogma as fact. From a scientific perspective this article needs significant work. Lexlex (talk) 12:27, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Whether it is about religion or something else, the article should be clear on where the information comes from. Zerotalk 12:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree, currently it's very, very unclear. Just because something is sourced doesn't make it true, especially if the source is a religious text or if the cited source uses a religious text as its underlying source. It's not fair to the reader to have to dig to separate truth from fiction. Perhaps clearly indicate this is an article based on mythology and start another that is purely researched fact? It would be quite difficult to do such a thing, but that is one potential way to solve this problem. Lexlex (talk) 16:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree that in some cases clarification might be in place. This should of course be done in a NPOV way, which should also not step on any religious toes. What we can not have is an article that will use disqualifiers every second sentence. It is one thing to make clear in a general way that certain statements in the article are based upon religious tradition, it is another to repeat that ad nauseum. For this purpose it is understood that articles about religious subjects are written from an inside perspective, often with a section discussion outside perspectives.
Perhaps it would be possible to see some specific proposals how some statements should be improved. Debresser (talk) 19:34, 27 September 2014 (UTC)