Talk:Jews

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Good article Jews has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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For prior discussions of the infobox in the top right corner of the article, please visit Talk:Jews/infobox.


Who changed the infobox?[edit]

From what I know, to add/remove people from the infobox you need to have a discussion first. Someone obviously decided that they don't.

Can someone revert it? In my opinion the new selection looks over-big and messy, and it can't be done without a discussion first.

The old selection looked so neat and brilliant with such a nice selection, why add anything? Sure, you can always add more notable Jews, but really, how does it make it look? When someone tells a story (talk) 23:24, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

What a coincidence, we were just talking about the infobox above this.. Anyway, someone reverted there, but keep in mind that you could have simply reverted that as well, at your discretion of course. Looking at the collage from that version, I think some of these people shouldn't be there, nevertheless I insist that we should have 16 people. Yambaram (talk) 00:18, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
I had noticed the additions to the infobox, and also didn't like the fact that the editor didn't even think to discuss this first. On the other hand, his changes weren't all that bad imho, so I decided to wait and see if anybody else would revert, which somebody now did. So let's discuss the pros and cons of his edit now. Debresser (talk) 10:52, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
I see. Glad you do not oppose the harmless idea of a slightly bigger collage. The reason I think we should have 16 people is because 9 is way too little and cannot give a decent representation of notable Jews from different ethnic groups and times in history. The infoboxes in the articles of Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Sephardi, Ethiopian, and other Jews from different countries and ethnic groups have pictures of Jews from their group only. So on this main article, it would be nice and would make the most sense if notable representatives from as many Jewish ethnic groups/countries were included. Also, 16 is a neat number considering there are about 16 million Jews in the world - one Jew for every million alive. Yambaram (talk) 13:54, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
That was already discussed here, do what I did and take a look at the archive pages, the most fascinating thing I read since the Mishnah. Long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, people were throwing sentences like "we need a Romanian Jew", "we need a Serb Jew", "we need an Indian Jew", "we need a picture of a bagel". Then someone wise came, like Moses speaking to the sons of Israel, and he suggested something that everyone agreed to. There are as many Jewish communities as there are countries, and you can't represent them all. Let's stick to the major ones: Ashkenazi Jews as one Jewish ethnicity, and Mizrahi/Sephardi Jews as another ethnicity. Ethiopian Jews, Indian Jews... they are too small communities to be represented, again, all those stuff were said and discussed years ago, and I agree with what I read. When people here tried to do what you are suggesting now, it resulted in huge revert wars, conflicts, and if I remember right for a long time there was no pictures here at all because it was just too sensitive issue.
Another thing, it's not ethnic groups. Communities, maybe, but not ethnic group. Jews are one ethnic group few sub-groups. When someone tells a story (talk) 14:25, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't think his changes were bad, the fact is, the people who he added were notable aright. The needle in the tukhus is that almost every Jew could offer another 9 notable people, and each will have a different selection. There is no doubt the 8 people we have now are not the only notable Jews, but it looks classy and it is diverse in occupations. When someone tells a story (talk) 14:25, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
I oppose having 16 people, I think 9 is perfect. don't overload it, let's keep it classy and whatever. I actually think the current selection is perfect, I would not change a thing. We have politics represented (Ben Gurion), arts (Chagal, the best Jewish artist), cinema (Portman, and Academy-award winner, and a woman), Maimonides (probably the most famous Sephardi), literature (Sholem Aleichem, the greatest Yiddish writer), Spinoza (one of the best philosophers, and a Sephardi), anyway, the selection is awesome. When someone tells a story (talk) 14:07, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Nice humor, thanks for taking the time to read the relevant archive talks. The Category:Jewish ethnic groups considers all of them as ethnic groups, by the way. Of course every one would have different opinions about which additional 7 Jews should be added, and that's why we should discuss it instead of refraining from talking about it just because it's a little complex. I disagree that the current collage is "perfect" or "awesome" as you say. It's nice and was definitely well thought, and I think we should keep all of them, but add 7 more. We could possibly switch these 7 and pick different ones every month. Diversity is a Jewish beauty and uniqueness. Yambaram (talk) 19:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Here is the deal, I oppose adding anyone. If you want to add people, sure, but you need to do few things:
1. Go up to the Mount Sinai for the answer, of as the Rabbi would interpret it, start a discussion to see if people agree with it.
2. While you're on Mount Sinai, make sure you get the 10 Commandments written by stone to get you the authority. In other words, agree with the people what are the criteria's are for the people added, what are the rules. For example, how many women? How many Sephardi (hint: proportion to the world Jewry, that was the original one at least).
3. Derech eretz kadma l'torah. In other words, I agree that we should give respect and keep the original selection, after all, they are very solid and strong arguments were bought in each favor. My favorite ones are Sholem Aleichem, Mark Chagal and Natalie Portman, because I really feel they show the Jewish contribution to world contemporary culture.
4. Picking different Jews every month? Too complicated, the info box is usually a topic people want to close as fast as possible, not something they want to get back to. At the end of the day, Jewish people always wanted one state and to stay in it, not a new state every month.
Where do you want the discussion to happen? Here? When someone tells a story (talk) 20:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
I could not have said it better. I would want to keep the present size and stable, well thought-out content. Much as I agree that diversity is a beautiful thing, I think we have achieved a reasonable level of it. As for picking different Jews every month, that would entail interminable discussion among the few of us who care to participate. Let's not. It's not just "a little complex"; it's hugely complex and also gets a bit tedious. As for "insisting" on expanding from 9 to 16, a word of advice: nobody here on WP gets to insist on getting his way; it's against house rules. Collaboration is essential. Hertz1888 (talk) 21:41, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Very true, especially about the picking different people every month. I looked at other info boxes to see what the Goyim are doing. The only thing I can bring from there, besides to fact I was happy to see they don't blame their issues on the Jews anymore like in the past (except with the Germans. Yes, again. This time some of them really want Karl Marx and Albert Einstein IN the collage), is that they all try to achieve one stable collage that could stay there and represent them. When someone tells a story (talk) 00:12, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks again for nice the explanation. Oh, and next time there's no need for you to say "Derech eretz kadma l'torah" in Hebrew, because coincidentally a few months ago I created the English article for it: Proper behavior precedes the Torah!
Forget about the "switching 7 new people every month" idea. Guys, don't you think that some of the most influential and powerful people in the world, such as the epic Jews Benjamin Netanyahu and Mark Zuckerberg, are missing? You mentioned the Germans's infobox, right? Well, their collage is a lot better. And not necessarily because they have so many people there - this isn't (only) a matter of personal taste here - but because there's only one person alive in "our" current collage, and that's absurd. Yambaram (talk) 03:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Great article by the way, I liked it.
I think Netanyahu will not add anything to the selection. First of all we already have a Prime Minister of Israel in the collage, the first one, and you can't beat that. Second, according to all polls in Israel, the majority of Israel population (including those who vote for him), Netanyahyu is a schmuck.
Zuckerberg is a great suggestion, but there are at least 100 other Jews like him. I mean, Gustav Makhler, Theodor Herzl, Lev Landau, Isaac Asimov, Osip Mandelstam, Golda Meir, Anton Rubinstein, Isaac Levitan, Waldemar Haffkine ("A savior of humanity")... I can go on for ages, but we can't add them all. I don't think he will add anything new to the collage, because what does he represent? Probably Jews in technology and all, but I think Einstein already represents that.
You liked the Germans collage?? Not surprising, for a weird reason, it's very Jewis to like German stuff lately. One of the most popular destinations for Israelis outside of Israel is apparently Berlin (personally, wouldn't set a foot there, but whatever).
I actually think their collage is overloaded, but I was talking about something else. Have you read the Germans talk page? They have two Jews in the collage, Marx and Einstein, and when a bunch of Jews on the talk page asked to remove them (because the article obviously talks about Germans as an ethnic group, so putting two Jews in the selection basically implies that Jews are not an ethnic group but rather only a religion), funny enough, the Germans started blaming the Jews who complained in "anti-Semitism", and apparently, "that's how the holocaust started, saying that Jews are not Germans".
No, the holocaust didn't start because someone said Jews are not Germans, the holocaust started when some crazy freak implied that those who are not German are less human. The paradox is, those German guys are being racist without even meaning to. I mean, by making Jews German in order to "protect them", they basically imply that the only way for Jews to be treated fairly and equally is if they become Germans. When someone tells a story (talk) 09:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I'll respond in order.
There are no "100 other Jews" like Mark Zuckerberg. Zuckerberg is consistently selected as the most influential Jew in the world, and is annually ranked among the highest in lists of the most powerful people in the world. This is what he represents. Einstein represents science from over 50 years ago, while Zuckerberg would represent technology, and much more (I mean more than just technology, not more than Einstein;)
Hey, and don't over-interpret my words. I said I like the German's collage simply because I randomly found it and liked the way it looks. I'm Israeli, and apparently like you European countries (excluding the UK) are probably my last destination. As hard economic times hit Israel, it's hard to judge young IDF 'graduates' who want to make it in the world and leave for Berlin... (shouldn't we be discussing this on our own talk pages?) The "not surprising" part you wrote was a bit offensive, especially to an Ashkenazi like me, whose family relative's past with the Germans is... You know.
I find what happened with Karl Marx and Albert Einstein on the Germans' collage and talk page quite interesting. I personally wouldn't be opposed to having these two in that collage, as Jews are defined both by religion and ethnicity, though it's a very uncertain subject. But kindly just be careful not to go too far with your input ["those German guys are being racist without even meaning to"]... Anyway, let me be more clear: I personally like any collage that features a large number of people. It should be done here is well - having nine people almost seems to imply that there aren't enough notable Jews to populate this collage, when in fact the opposite is the truth. Yambaram (talk) 23:05, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree about what you said about Zuckerberg, but I still don't see who to put him instead in the collage. My main thing is, will Facebook survive or be a trend ? I think time will tell exactly how much Zuckerberg is influential.
I'm sorry my words came across differently, I understand what you meant, and started talking about the topic as a "by the way". Sorry it came out the wrong way. The reason I find it racist Germans have two Jews in the collage is because they are trying to make Jews look like only a religious group and not an ethnic group. The fact is, they didn't agree to change the article focus to Germans as German citizens, and decided to keep the article very ethnical, which means they imply German Jews are German by blood and only Jewish by faith.
I understand young Israelis who go abroad, but Berlin (or Germany in general) is not a destination I understand.
It was a joke and I'm sorry it came out offensive, when I re-read what I wrote to you I understand how he came out, I am by no way implying to have any masochistic affection for Germany (some Jews do my love).
I don't agree that nine people almost seems to imply that there aren't enough notable Jews to populate this collage, in fact, I think everyone knows that. That is exactly my point! The fact we have such a modest yet logical collage is what makes it such a winner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by When someone tells a story (talkcontribs) 18:34, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
I agree that 9 is the perfect number. Debresser (talk) 21:43, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
I like the idea of 16, including more living figures and more women. Why are 7 of the 9 current figures men? Beebop211 (talk) 04:38, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Apparently, because there are more well-know Jewish men than women. Debresser (talk) 17:27, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
I would expect it to be 8 out of 9 per the survey of recent deaths. That study "examined 7756 biographical Wikipedia articles about people who had died between 2009 and 2011" and found that 84% of the articles were about men. so, the gender bias persists. Frietjes (talk) 15:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
{Sigh}. Beebop211 (talk) 02:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The Word "Jew" Simply Means from the Tribe of Judah[edit]

The word Jew simply means from the tribe of Judah. The word Jew is directly derived from the word Judah. There were actually 12 tribes of Israel so technically if a person is descendant of one of these other tribes and not Judah they are not a Jew. Although they are all Israelites. The word Jewish means "Like a Jew". Someone can be called Jewish but not even be a blood Jew simply because they practice the ways of a Jew. The "ish" on the end of Jew turns it into an adjective that describes what someone is like but not actually what they are like. For instance a person can be called "devilish" because they are like a devil but not actually be the devil. I believe these facts should be added to the lead of the article. 2602:306:C518:6C40:DDC7:CB30:942:8FFE (talk) 15:20, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I think we have the origin of the word "Jew" from "tribe of Yehudah" in the article. Debresser (talk) 17:29, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Terms such as Jew and Jewish and others are often used in various ways, which is confusing for many. I shall start a new section related to this topic. And I do agree that some discussion about the confusion of terms is highly relevant to the article, and needs to be incorporated into it if it is not already. (I didn't check.) See my new section, to be added in a moment. Thanks for bringing this up. Misty MH (talk) 20:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Terms such as Jews, Jew, Jewish, and others[edit]

Terms such as Jews, Jew, Jewish, and others have been and are still used in ways that may be confusing for hearers and readers. This is significant to the topic and to the article. In common practice, these terms are used to mean many of the meanings listed below, depending on context of usage. This has been confusing to people for a long time, and sometimes still is. Some clear mention of this should be included in the article, if it has not been done already.

  • I am writing most of this in reference to how I have perceived these terms to be used in the USA, as that is what I am most familiar with, and particularly near the NW coast.
  • Because of confusion and uncertainty, a reader and listener may need to be thinking about which an author means: Race, Religion, Culture, Tribe (of Judah), or Other.

"Jew" vs. "Jewish" – As to usage in the USA today (NW coast):

  • The term "Jew" often refers to a person's race, and seems to not be used as often in reference to the religion. In much of contemporary literature/writing, it may occasionally refer to a Tribe distinction – meaning, being from the Tribe of Judah and not another of the 12 Tribes – but that is more likely to occur when the topic of Tribes itself is being discussed. It is also used in reference to the Nation of Israel (more below).
  • The term "Jews" is often used the same way as the term "Jew", but it depends on the user and the context.
  • The term "Jewish" seems to regularly refer to either religion or race, depending on context. It is also used in reference to the Nation of Israel.

Other terms – As to usage in the USA today (NW coast):

  • The term "Israel" is often used in the Bible in reference to the whole Nation, but sometimes as a distinction between the Kingdoms when they split into the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah. It may be at times used interchangeably with other terms here. It is also used in reference to the Nation of Israel.
  • The term "Israelite" is common but hasn't taken over the word "Jew" entirely in usage, especially in speech. It usually if not always refers to the Nation Israel or to Race. I have not seen it used in reference to religion. It may sound funny, but it may at times be also used in reference to the Nation of Israel, or to the people of the Nation of Israel.
  • The Bible itself seems to use multiple terms; though, "Israelite" isn't one that I recall seeing in the English versions that I am most familiar with. I do not recall seeing it used much in reference to the Nation of Israel, but it may be.
  • The term "Hebrew" seems to hardly ever be used in colloquial speech to refer to race or ethnicity. It is, however, sometimes used in this way in literature related to the topic, and in reference to the Bible.
  • The terms "Jew" and "Jewish" are regularly used – in speech and in writing – to refer to many of the above. Even a single author or speaker may use the terms in multiple ways. This is not uncommon, and may help lead to confusion at times. Unless religion is specifically being discussed, these two terms may more often refer to race/ethnicity, or to the Nation of Israel, or to Culture (food, etc.); they seem to be seldom used to refer to someone as from the Tribe of Judah. In the Bible "New Testament", my recollection is that they are often used in reference to the people as a whole, or to a single person, or to the Nation of Israel, and on occasion used in reference to religion, depending on the English version being used.
  • Usage of these various terms, of course, almost certainly depends on the region, the people using it, on various contexts, and on various purposes of use.
  • Some of the terms here are used interchangeably; some might sound odd in certain contexts where usage is less common.
  • Often a term that is being used can be understood by its context of usage. And I think that in this case, this may be one of the best ways to determine its intended meaning (other than by asking).

Other thoughts:

  • I think that confusion over the usage of these terms added considerably to the ability of those promoting antisemitism etc. to succeed in their efforts. I see more consciousness of these issues being brought to the fore, but I don't see clear resolutions becoming prominent. Therefore, it seems a worthy topic to discuss and resolve in international affairs, and for the sake of all involved.
  • I did not consult any usage references for this discussion here, or any experts for their opinions. If there are any mistakes herein, my apologies, as this was in large part based on my own observations – and on previous discussions – and was off the top of my head.
  • How Jews themselves (of all types) wish to use these terms is worthy of research, and possibly worthy of a separate article on that topic (if one does not already exist).
  • "Honor all" people!

Misty MH (talk) 21:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC) Misty MH (talk) 21:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

If you wish to add comments, please do so below, not above. Thanks! Misty MH (talk) 21:13, 8 May 2014 (UTC)