Talk:Jews

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Good article Jews has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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For prior discussions of the infobox in the top right corner of the article, please visit Talk:Jews/infobox.


Edit[edit]

Debresser, why you reverted my edit? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 11:27, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for asking. The hatnote has a precise wording, which was worked out through consensus on this talkpage. You changed that, obviously oblivious of that hard-gained consensus, so I restored the consensus version. The rest of your edit was minor and 1. made the infobox less clear to understand and 2. changed the order of the pictures. Both those things were also unnecessary at best. Debresser (talk) 11:38, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
What consensus? I now looked through archive and didn't saw any discussions on the hatnote. I explained the edits in summaries. I've combined two hatnotes into one so they wouldn't took much space. I've sorted portraits by birth date. It's a no-brainer. Before that they where chaotic. I've also replaced pictures of some people with better ones showing full face directing at camera. You can't revert without giving a summary. >"made the Infobox less clear to understand" what does it mean? Also see this: WP:ROWN. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 13:05, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
I now noticed that the discussion about the hatnote took place here, so that was on the Judaism talkpage. Sorry for the confusion. I do see a problem: the hatnote of Jews says "For their religion, law and culture, see Judaism." while the hatnote of Judaism says "or consideration of ethnic, historic and cultural aspects of the Jewish identity, see Jews." In other words, both article claim that Jewish culture is discussed in the other article. I think we should change the hatnote here and remove "law and culture" from it. Would you agree?
I don't mind the other changes you made to the pictures, changing the order and a few pictures, in fact, I think it is an improvement, now that I think of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Debresser (talkcontribs) 15:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
As long as this keeps coming up, perhaps we can come to a consensus on which article deals with religious aspects and which deals with cultural aspects. The hat note conflict mentioned above is a typical case-in-point of the confusion facing any reader. in which talk page could this be discussed in a way where all interested parties could be included? Lexlex (talk) 15:45, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
>"Would you agree?" Yes, that was in my edit. Thanks. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 16:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
How about Judaism as a religion, and Judaism as a people, or Judaism as a culture, or just Religious forms of Judaism and Non religious aspects of Judaism, or Judaism - Religion; Judaism - people (or culture). It would be good to differentiate them. The word is too often used on wikipedia to refer only to religion, and religion is a minority aspect of modern Judaism, though obviously still important to many.Theredheifer (talk) 17:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Lexlex I apologize that I didn't pay attention to your question above. I think it is obvious that the culture is discussed foremost in Jews. I think the hatnotes as they are now reflect that and that the issue has been resolved. Debresser (talk) 18:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Theredheifer I don't understand your suggestion. Could you be more specific? Debresser (talk) 18:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
It is far from clear that one article deals with religious aspects and one with other (i.e. the majority) aspects of Judaism. The title Jews is not helpful in this respect. One article should have the words Judaism+ religion in the title, (plus anything else required) and one article should have the words Judaism+culture or people, (plus anything else required). It is POV to describe Judaism (without qualification) as its religious aspects only.Theredheifer (talk) 20:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
I do agree with your general statement that it is not correct to see Judaism as only a religion. On the other hand, I don't think that a change to the title of either the Judaism or the Jews article is likely to find agreement, nor do I think it is necessary, because Judaism is indeed first and foremost the religion of the Jews. All other aspects are secondary or derivatives. The hatnotes on both articles make clear where to look for which subjects. We should concentrate on perfecting them. My own opinion is that the hatnotes are already pretty accurate and clear. Debresser (talk) 22:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
The hat note indication that Judaism is the "religion of the Jews" is not true: all jews don't follow the same religion. Some are also specifically not religious and could even be offended by such a classification. More to point: A hat note is not the place to make such statements, true or false—it's for nothing more that article disambiguation (indicating what the article is about). in this case it should indicate if the article covers the ethnoreligious group or the religion. Currently it does not serve its intended purpose. Lexlex (talk) 22:49, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
I do not agree that Judaism is first and foremost the religion of the Jewish people, and that other aspects are secondary. That view is completely POV, and wikipedia should reflect all aspects of Judaism, including culture and history equally. We should use terms to differentiate between Religious Judaism and non religious Judaism.17:22, 5 November 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theredheifer (talkcontribs)
Theredheifer You are true to your opinion. Unfortunately for you, reliable sources disagree with you and Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people first and foremost. I hope you will stop pushing your point of view. Please read WP:TE in this regard. Debresser (talk) 17:51, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

The issue of whether there is such a thing as the "Jewish race"[edit]

I seem to recall that there was at one time an article on Wikipedia that discusses the issue of whether Jews could be considered a race or not. Now I have not been able to find anything on the issue in Wikipedia, including this article. Now it seems to me that the issue is significant enough that it should be at least mentioned briefly. I understand that the general consensus currently is that a Jew in the non-religious sense refers to an ethnicity rather then a true race. I do think though that this article and any other relevant articles needs to at least briefly address how Jews have at times been classified as a race, how the Nazis used this in relation to their persecution and extermination, why "Are Jews race?" is a controversial question, and the general consensus currently is that Jews are not a "race" but an ethnicity. The following articles provide, I think, justification for inclusion of this controversy into this article and I believe the justify the issue being at least mentioned on Wikipedia.

http://forward.com/articles/155742/jews-are-a-race-genes-reveal/?p=all http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm http://newobserveronline.com/race-or-religion-jewish-genes-identified/ http://www.jpost.com/Enviro-Tech/Jews-A-religious-group-people-or-race http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2013/05/16/israeli-researcher-challenges-jewish-dna-links-to-israel-calls-those-who-disagree-nazi-sympathizers/

I would write up something to include in the article myself but I get the sense that the issue is very controversial and that is why most references to it seem to it have been deleted from Wikipedia (The Who is a Jew article somewhat touches on the issue but not directly enough IMO). As such I wish to avoid an edit war/revert war and discuss this issue first. --50.0.166.40 (talk) 18:53, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

There are already articles such as Genetic studies on Jews and racial antisemitism which mention such matters. Yuvn86 (talk) 23:52, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

New Infobox proposal[edit]

Jews
Maimonides
Baruch Spinoza
Sholem Aleichem
Albert Einstein
Franz Kafka
David Ben-Gurion
Marc Chagall
Barbra Streisand
Natalie Portman

I suggest replacing Noether and Gershwin with Barbra Streisand since she's both musician and female. Then we can add Kafka. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 22:36, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Works for me. Antandrus (talk) 21:41, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
@Hertz1888: what is your objection? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 23:18, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
My objection is to your haste in carrying out the proposed change. One editor agrees with you and you take that as general consensus, without allowing time for others to comment? As to the merits of the proposed change, I see no advantage to it, and suggest we leave well enough alone. The existing selection and layout are nicely thought out and well balanced. As the saying goes, if it's not broken, let's not fix it. Hertz1888 (talk) 01:27, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Hertz1888 is right about Wikipedia:IFITAINTBROKE, but I actually like the proposal, so I'll support it as well. Debresser (talk) 20:42, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
(Not that it matters, but I actually put in my comment after TH added the new photo list, to indicate support.) The new infobox seems slightly more inclusive to me -- Kafka's a pretty important name, and I think TH makes a good point on Streisand. Arts, sciences, literature, music, historical periods, genders well represented. Antandrus (talk) 21:41, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
How is two women out of nine figures "well represented", when we had three women before? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:38, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
In quality. :) Debresser (talk) 11:41, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
When did we had three women? Who were they? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 13:28, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Previous version also had two women. Am I missing something? Was there an earlier version yet? Antandrus (talk) 14:13, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
My mistake. Sorry. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 16:38, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
No worries. I probably should have said 'represented' not 'well represented' anyway, i.e. only two out of nine. Antandrus (talk) 17:45, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Oppose. First, as we just recently discussed, it makes no sense to have two writers in the collage. If Kafka is included, then Sholem Alechem should be replaced by someone representing another field and possibly another time, while also having a fair representation of the different cultural areas (i.e. Central Europe, Eastern Europe, USA, Israel ) etc. The consensus at that time was to keep Sholem Alechem. Second, Streisand is not only musician, she is also a Hollywood actress. If she is included in the collage, then instead of Portman. Otherwise, it would make an impression that the only famous women are actresses / Hollywood stars. If one agrees to put Streisand as representing all performing arts, then one can use the free cell to put someone like Mayer Amschel Rothschild (business, 18th century), Mikhail Botvinnik (sport, chess grandmaster), Emile Berliner (inventor), Sigmund Freud (social sciences), Hannah Szenes (WWII hero) etc. --Off-shell (talk) 22:36, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Without Portman there will be just one Israeli. I'm ok with Freud instead of Kafka. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 05:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
For that reason I strongly oppose removing Portman, and because she is famous. Debresser (talk) 21:21, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
I object to removing Noether Frietjes (talk) 21:01, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
I have no problem removing this woman I never heard of. Debresser (talk) 21:21, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
top five. Frietjes (talk) 21:36, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
On the positive side, I think it is very desirable to have a female scientist or mathematician. Noether is a good choice. Lise Meitner might have been another. There is no need for a second woman who is an entertainer. Can we conclude this discussion? The infobox montage has had a more than reasonable amount of attention. I believe the current array is at the point of "good enough", and leaving the discussion open interminably only seems to encourage endless tinkering. Hertz1888 (talk) 15:09, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Marx[edit]

Shouldn't Marx be included? He is one of the most influential Jews in history. Much more so than Natalie Portman. JDiala (talk) 06:45, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Been there, done that. There are many reasons, like: Natalie is a woman, American and an actor and we want some balance in the areas of a. gender b. origin c. field of activity of the person. Also, Marx was not raised Jewish. Debresser (talk) 11:45, 19 November 2014 (UTC)