Talk:Joanna of Castile

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Jane & Joan[edit]

I have usually seen this woman called Joanna in English, not Joan, and since she is the only queen of Castile by this name, she should be at Joanna of Castile. (Compare Victoria of the United Kingdom. Note also that other lonesome I's of Castile, such as Isabella, should stay I since Spain used the dynastic numbering of Castile and (for example) Isabella I of Castile was followed by Isabella II of Spain.) Montréalais

I am confused. Her name in Spanish is Juana which translates to English as Joan. I think calling her Joanna is inaccurate. What other sources refer to her as Joanna? Saucybetty

I've heard her called Juana Bruja (the Witch). Trekphiler 08:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
See Joanna. English, being particularly rich in doublets of Christian names, has many synonyms for this one. Thus "Jane the Insane" or "Crazy Joan" would be valid, though cruel, translations for "Juana la Loca". "Joanna" is older than these, in English, and is also used in other languages, so it's at least as reasonable a selection as the others. Jim.henderson 16:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
"Crazy Jane" is a figure in several poems by William Butler Yeats, as well as a painting by 19th-century mentally ill artist Richard Dadd and a character appearing in DC Comics. Perhaps Juana la Loca's ghost has been haunting Western civilization in one form or another ever since she was so royally screwed over... Johanna-Hypatia 11:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Why isn't she listed as simply Juana? There is no need to anglicize. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.142.49.99 (talk) 22:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with what the last guy said. We don't refer to a Carlos as Charles nowadays.--Batfan1966 (talk) 18:50, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Death on April 11 or 12, 1555?[edit]

Currently the article states her death to have occurred on 4/11, but this is in conflict with wikipedia versions in Catalan, Dutch, German, and Italian. There is some discussion in de wikipedia about this. According to Townsend Miller (Ref) she died in the morning hours of Good Friday, 1555, that would be 4/12/1555. Ekem 19:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

1516-55[edit]

Why isn't Joanna known (1516-55), as Queen of Spain? GoodDay 21:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Well, in theory, she was the Queen of Spain (I believe it is still unclear if she ever suceeded her father in Aragon, though). Her son Charles was merely a co-ruler while she was still alive - offical documents stated something like "Joan and Charles, queen and king of Spain..." If you check the French Wiki, for instance, she's listed under Jeanne Ire d'Espagne. However, History is cruel and even after her death and the death of her enemies she is not remembered as the first Queen of Unified Spain - which she was, although not a de facto ruler. Maybe we could do something about it?[Aki]

Juana was called mad, but may not have been mad. Her father declared her mad so he could have her throne, and when she got married she went from Juana to Joanna, as did her sister (Catalina to Katherine) ~i

  • Being Joanna instead of Juana has nothing to do with marriage. 'Joanna' (although I still think Joan is more accurate) is simply the English version of Juana. That's why in Portugal she is Joana, in Germany Johanna and so on. It is a common practise for historical figures and even modern royals to be known outside their country by the local version of their name. Her mother is known as Isabella in English speaking countries, but she was Isabel all her life. [Aki]
    • Actually, her mother was Ysabel all her life. Isabel is the modern version of her name. This is her signature. Surtsicna (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

"Joanna was the last of the original Spanish royals; after her, all royalty on the Spanish throne was from houses that had come from abroad"[edit]

This is inaccurate. The last native Spanish ruling dynasty in Castile was the one whose direct male line ended with Alfonso VI in the 12th century. Alfonso's daughter, Queen Urraca of Castilla and Léon, was married to a Burgundian count. Their offspring were thus French on the paternal line, and known as the House of Burgundy.

The House of Burgundy was later supplanted by the "bastard" Trastamara line in the 14th century. The Trastamaras also came to control the Aragonese throne in the early 1400's, with the accession of Ferdinand I. So on both sides of the family, Juana's dynastic lineage was already of foreign origin. --Carlos 17:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)Carribas

Joanna never claimed the title Empress of the Romans[edit]

No contemporary or modern author described her as thus either. Wikipedia can't make outrageous claims like this. 24.255.11.149 (talk) 06:12, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


Joanna was Queen of Aragon[edit]

Queen of Castile[edit]

If she was only de jure? then in that case George III of the United Kingdom, was dejure UK King from 1811 to 1820. GoodDay (talk) 03:09, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The Prince of Wales didn't get to start being George IV in 1811, as far as I'm aware. Juana's son, on the other hand, was not only de facto ruler, but actually King. john k (talk) 01:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Joanna, really?[edit]

I've never seen her called anything but "Juana" in sources written in the last 50 years. Where are we getting this anglicization from? john k (talk) 01:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree--seems like a no-brainer. Most sources use Juana not Joanna. Glendoremus (talk) 06:09, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, according to Google Book Search, Joanna of Castile is used more often than Juana of Castile. Surtsicna (talk) 16:53, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

But a Google search is not necessarily the best measure. Instead we should use WP:Verifiability--"Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Reliable sources are necessary both to substantiate material within articles and to give credit to authors and publishers in order to avoid plagiarism and copyright violations... In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers." Here are some good sources along with the name they use for the subject:

  • Aram, 2005, Juana the Mad -- Juana
  • Gomez,ed. 2008 Juana of Castile: History and Myth of the Mad Queen -- Juana
  • Liss, 2004, Isabel the Queen -- Juana
  • Edwards, 2005, Ferdinand and Isabella -- Joanne
  • Liss, 1992, Isabel the Queen -- Juana
  • Stuart, 1991, Isabella of Castile -- Juana
  • Maltby, 2002, Reign of Charles V -- Juana
  • Kamen, 1999, Philip of Spain -- Juana
  • Elliott, 1963, Imperial Spain: 1469-1716 -- Juana
  • Thomas, 2003, Rivers of Gold: The Rise of the Spanish Empire -- Juana

As you can see, it's not quite unanimous, but sources that use Joanna tend to be older or a bit further off topic. Glendoremus (talk) 20:39, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you're right. But if we move the article to Juana of Castile, wouldn't we create some sort of inconsistency (since we have Isabella, Ferdinand, Philip, Catherine instead of Isabel, Fernando, Felipe, Catalina etc)? Surtsicna (talk) 22:54, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I know what you mean but there's plenty of inconsistencies no matter what direction you go. I think we have to follow what's being done in the pertinent references. Personally, I'd like to see more use of original names but for the best-known historical figures, it will be a long time coming. Glendoremus (talk) 01:28, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Policy states we are not use the "original names", but the best known name in the English language. Few people would be looking for Juana of Castile. -- Secisek (talk) 15:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

inconsistency in Imprisonment section?[edit]

Text in the first paragraph of this section states that Juana was kept in a windowless room; however, the second paragraph says that her daughter Catherine - who had no choice but to stay with her mother:

had nothing to do all day, her only entertainment was to look out of the window

Can this discrepancy be resolved?

Ed8r (talk) 17:03, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

There are many sources which confirm that Joanna was kept in a windowless room and I haven't been able to find a source for the sentence you quoted. Therefore, I'll remove it. That's certainly better than having such contradicting information. I'm amazed how you spotted it, though. Surtsicna (talk) 18:10, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

--91.77.56.238 (talk) 18:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC) Somebody messed up the article!! See the previous version. I undid the changes, but I don't know how to report the abuser, - he goes on editing more articles!(( Delete this post after resolving the problem. Ivan, rufilter@inbox.ru —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.77.56.238 (talk) 18:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Merely schizophrenic??[edit]

From time to time one comes upon the most astonishing remarks in Wikipedia. I gasped in disbelief when I read the following statement, which appeared not once but twice, in two different sections (I've now deleted one entirely):

"...she was merely clinically depressed or schizophrenic at the time, not 'insane' as commonly believed."

Good grief. All I can say is that nobody familiar with the subject could ever entertain the idea of putting the word "merely" in close proximity to either "clinically depressed" or "schizophrenic", as there is nothing mild or slight about those afflictions.

Obviously the offending word can be excised quite easily. But the fact that that word was used at all raises a serious question about the accuracy & reliability of the rest of the sentence as well -- especially when there is no citation provided to support what was written. I hope a knowledgable editor will take on the task of reviewing (and possibly rewriting) these passages -- with citation(s) -- ASAP. I'll check back in a week. Regards, Cgingold (talk) 12:18, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I for my part am curious as to what the author means by insane if schizophrenia does not cut it. 83.250.140.199 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC).

Agreed: either she was insane/mad/lunatic (or whatever old word you might use for 'metally disordered'), as confirmed apparently by modern historians who define it better as either schizophrenia or depression (psychosis is a symptom, not a disorder - melancholia is about a century out of date but should mean depression)... or she wasn't mad, therefore NOT mentally disordered. Saying she had a mere "depression or schizophrenia but wasn't mad" suggests a very, very liberal idea the author entertains about sanity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.3.103.7 (talk) 02:13, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

First, "insanity" is not a medical condition nor does any condition (such as schizophrenia or depression) automatically qualify someone as "insane". "Insanity" is a legal term that means nothing in the psychological or psychiatric community. Second, why does the article say that modern scholars believe she may have suffered from "melancholia"? "Melancholia" is not recognized as a valid psychological or psychiatric condition, nor has it been for a very, very long time. 74.109.122.239 (talk) 20:18, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

This made me laugh: "Most historians now agree that she had melancholia,[21]:9 severe clinical depression,[21]:9[22] a psychosis,[22] or a case of inherited schizophrenia.[21]:9[22]" Jeez, make your mind up! That's hardly agreement, and how do historians know this stuff? They can't. Best to observe that she was considered by her contemporaries to be suffering an instability of the mind and was therefore confined.Shtove (talk) 18:47, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Sister Catherine was not QofEngland in 1506.[edit]

Twice this is mentioned:

  • She would not see her mother or siblings again, except for her younger sister Catherine of Aragon in 1506, as the Queen of England.
  • Leaving Flanders on 10 January 1506, their ships were wrecked on the English coast and the couple were guests of Henry VIII and her sister Catherine of Aragon at Windsor Castle.

Henry did not become king until his father's death on 21 April 1509, and Catherine did not become queen until he married her in June of 1509.

Were Juana and Philip received by Henry VII (whose queen had died in 1503)? Did she get a chance to see Catherine, who at the time would have been the Dowager Princess of Wales, and pretty much stuck in a corner until Henry VII figured out what was the most convenient thing to do with her? Lizbetann (talk) 07:50, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

"Philip's death" error?[edit]

Not quite sure of this one, so don't pounce on me if I'm mistaken. In one part of the section titled "Philip's death", there are a few lines that seem to be discombobulated. The lines in question are as follows:

"Joanna was pregnant with their sixth child, a daughter Catherine (1507-1578). Peter (1488-1490). By 20 December 1506, she was in the village of Torquemada in Castile, attempting to exercise her rights as Queen of Castile to rule alone in her own name."

The italicized words are the ones that are confusing. Why are they there? Is there a part of the article that I've overlooked or is this in the wrong place? —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgiaWillow (talkcontribs) 01:37, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Page image[edit]

I recognize some of the potential reasons for preferring File:Meister der Magdalenenlegende 002.jpg to File:Juan de Flandes 003.jpg, but they should be articulated, if not here than in the edit summary, and the caption must be altered if necessary. The current picture is from her youth; the other pictures that have been tried are, no doubt, from later on. Lockesdonkey (talk) 05:33, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Jafeluv (talk) 11:12, 22 November 2010 (UTC)


Joanna of CastileJoanna the Mad — She was not just queen of Castile and she is very well known by her byname in English and Spanish. 216.8.134.159 (talk) 15:35, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

The poor girl! Is Joanna the Mad still her English common name? I would not use it personally, for moral reasons, and suspect many other anglophones would not. But it's a guess; If they do, we should go with the common usage. Interesting! Andrewa (talk) 19:26, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

My own GoogleBooks searches support the proposal's rationale. The byname comes out on top over the current title in several different searches. I'll leave it to others to try it for themselves, if they feel the need. (I'd also point out that she probably was mad, so it's not just a slur, even if it is politically incorrect by today's standards to call anybody "mad".) Srnec (talk) 01:04, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
My searches don't reveal any great dominance of one name over the other (depends exactly what you search for), so I don't see any need to change the title, particularly if we think "mad" sounds like a slur.--Kotniski (talk) 12:07, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose no reason to use this nickname. Her insanity is debatable. She was less mad than Charles VI of France who isn't at Charles the Mad.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 00:34, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

  • Strongly oppose, it is a pejorative nickname, and per the article's text on her mental health it is inaccurate.---Look2See1 t a l k → 05:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose See WP:NCROY, if Castile was the most important of her kingdoms then the default option is to call her that in the absence of a good reason to the contrary, it is entirely irrelevant that it was not her only kingdom. "The Mad" now seems insensitive and problematic. Maybe we should call her "Joanna of Spain", but that's another discussion. PatGallacher (talk) 19:54, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Legacy in the Arts please add William Mortensen's Johan the Mad[edit]

I don't know how to add to an article, so I'm requesting William Mortensen's Johan the Mad be mentioned in the legacy section. Google it or check it out here http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajourneyroundmyskull/3168313353/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.187.105.90 (talk) 03:12, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Physical traits[edit]

The characteristics being described are shared by most of the Trastamara, including those not descended from Pedro. They are seen in John I and Ferdinand I, and they are seen in Alfonso XI, so any special focus on Pedro and the Plantagenet descent is undue (and not found in the cited source). Agricolae (talk) 14:57, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Alright then. I think the claim was challenged several years ago anyway. Perhaps it should be removed altogether. Surtsicna (talk) 15:05, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
The removal of Peter doesn't seem right because Peter of Castile's article is the only ancestors of Joanna of Castile other than her mother's that describes physical appearance. There were once many reference to this on the articles of members of the House of Trastamara that either said the trait of blue eyes and auburn hair came from Henry II, Peter, or Alfonso XI some even said the trait came from Eleanor of England, Queen of Castile, which is a 400 year difference. I really doubt that all the Trastamara had these traits, especially the members that we don't even have accurate portraits of, and a few months ago I removed all the unsourced duplicate entries from the articles of Isabella of Aragon, Queen of Portugal, Miguel da Paz, Prince of Portugal, Alfonso, Prince of Asturias (1453–1468), Maria of Aragon, Queen of Portugal, John, Prince of Asturias, Henry IV of Castile, Alfonso, Prince of Asturias (1453–1468), John II of Castile, Alfonso, Prince of Asturias (1453–1468), and Henry IV of Castile. The only articles with this still are the ones with citations: Isabella I of Castile, Joanna of Castile and Catherine of Aragon. Is there any need to put a claim to the origin of these physical traits? Isn't it kind of subscribing to the stereotype that Spanish people shouldn't have light color hair and blue eyes and that only by an English ancestors either Eleanor of England or Catherine of Lancaster that the royals of Castile could have these traits.
The article on Alfonso XI of Castile describes his physical appearance referencing a contemporary chronicler, although it also contained an unreferenced (and completely false) statement about the genetics of eye color that I just took out. The fact that Joanna descended from Alfonso XI three times is probably much more relevant with regard to her appearance than that she descended once from Peter - you just can't attribute one's (recessive) physical characteristics to a single great-great-grandfather. It really comes down to this - is there a reliable source that refers to these as characteristics of a broader family? If not, then we shouldn't include it. If there is, we still might not want to include it. Maybe we could be more precise and say 'like her mother and sister' rather than referring to the whole extended family. Agricolae (talk) 20:53, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
That would probably be the best idea since there is no reliable sources right now to claim that all members of the family had these traits. --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 20:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)