Talk:Jochen Rindt

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Nationality[edit]

His german wiki states that he is of german nationality but had an austrian drivers license.

This is true, due to the jus sanguinis principle he remained a German citizen, while representing Austria in motorsports. And, during his professional career, called Switzerland his home. -91.32.228.27 14:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
His mother was austrian. And he moved to Austria when he was a baby. So, I'm not sure he just had an austrian motorsport licence. I think he also had austrian citizenship Woodcote 21:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The article on Austrian nationality law suggests that Austrian nationality didn't exist when Rindt was born, as the country had been annexed to Germany. He appears to have been living in Austria at the end of the war, so he may have 'converted' to Austrian nationality when Austria was re-established. More likely his grandparents would have made the decision, I don't know how much time was allowed to choose German or Austrian nationality. If that did happen, the Austrian nationality law article says he would have lost his German nationality. Also note that if the rules on nationality in F1 were the same then as they are now, which is not necessarily the case, he would have to have held an Austrian passport to represent Austria. 4u1e (talk) 16:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Further edits have been made on this subject, which I have reverted. In order to have raced under the Austrian flag, Rindt must have had, at least in some part, Austrian nationality. We will need some real verification shown before any changes are made. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Jochen Rindt[edit]

The following section is as posted on my talk page Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

The article FIA Super Licence section Nationality of drivers that the F1 driver infobox links to clearly states that "The nationality that appears on the racing licence is the same one that appears on the driver's passport. This is not necessarily the same as the country issuing the racing licence. A Frenchman living in Germany can race with a German licence, but the nationality displayed would still be French. In order to race as German, the driver would need to have German nationality as well. For drivers with multiple citizenships, the driver chooses one of them to drive for."

Jochen Rindt was a German citizen and is therefore German by nationality. If you want Austria in his infobox you will have to alter the infobox to display racing licence instead of nationality (or perhaps both). It is absolutely correct that Jochen Rindt represented Austria and only Austria during his racing career, but it is absolutely false that he'd ever have been an Austrian national. Therefore to state that his nationality would be Austrian is false. Please alter the in some cases perhaps misleading infobox itself instead of inserting good willing but false informations in the article. Thank you. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 22:34, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can see, you have provided no proof whatsoever that Rindt was a German citizen, or that the nationality on his racing licence was not Austrian. The German language article you provided is not sufficient. I can provide a very large number of reliable sources to show that his nationality was Austrian. As you highlight, the superlicence section states that "in order to race as a German, the driver would need to have German nationality as well". Therefore, it's clear that Rindt had at least partial Austrian nationality, otherwise he would not have been allowed to race as an Austrian. The nationality link in the infobox already links to "racing licence", and I believe this is clear. Changes to the infobox require a consensus at the F1 Wikiproject, which is where you'll have to take this if you want the infobox changed. Perhaps you can suggest a reason why, if Rindt was in no way Austrian, why he would have have held an Austrian licence. Furthermore, perhaps you could do it on the article talk page, where this discussion belongs. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
The Aeiou Encyclopedia article exists in several languages, please choose English if you lack sufficient skills in German. The encyclopedia is financed by the government of Austria and counts as a top source about Austrian personalities and other Austria related topics.
Your claim about nationality as a condition for racing licence does not exist in the text of the article, it only states that the nationality of the racing licence is the same as the driver's passport, not that the racing licence would be of that country (and often enough it isn't, the Austrian citizen Andreas Zuber representing UAE for example). Zuber has Austrian as his nationality in his UAE racing licence, to change that to UAE he would have to become a UAE citizen.
Rindt grew up in Austria and certainly is in some ways Austrian, that's out of the question. However he was not an Austrian citizen and therefore his nationality is not Austrian. This is an encyclopedia, and if the statement is about the nationality of the driver, then it's about the factual nationality of the driver and not what he's considered to have been by the large audience. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 23:22, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, in case you haven't noticed, this is the English Wikipedia, and no-one here is required to have any kind of skills in German. If available, sources should be in English. That encyclopedia provides no explanation of why Rindt might not have been Austrian, nor does it explain what nationality was displayed on his racing licence, which is what the infobox is concerned with. The text you're talking about also states, as I pointed out, that in order to race as an Austrian, Rindt would have to have held at least partial Austrian nationality. You seem to be ignoring that. Incidentally, Zuber has not raced in F1 - the requirements for an F1 superlicence are different to other types of licences. He would not be able to represent the UAE in F1, as he is not a citizen of that country.
You will need to verify in some way that Rindt was not Austrian, or that the nationality on his racing licence was not Austrian. The sporting infobox is concerned with his sporting nationality, which was Austrian. This is incontrovertible. Furthermore, it is best to resolve the matter here rather than continuing to edit the article according to your point of view. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
A literary source clearly stating that Rindt never had an Austrian citizenship added as requested. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 23:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for finally providing a source for your edit. The other source you added is still in German, after you have stated that an English one is available. However, since the F1 infobox is concerned with a driver's sporting nationality, I have corrected it, with a source from the Official Formula One website. Rindt raced as an Austrian, and the F1 infobox will show sporting nationality. The article explains Rindt's background, and you have established that Rindt did not hold Austrian citizenship. This is of no concern to the F1 infobox, for in F1 he was Austrian. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
It seems fairly clear that Rindt was allowed to race as an Austrian because his mother was Austrian. Had he wished to hold an Austrian passport he could have done so, and presumably this was enough for the motorsport authorities. It seems odd that he had a German passport (if this is true) but refused to race for Germany. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
There is no guideline banning sources in other languages. The Aeiou encyclopedia page lets the user choose between English and German, the URL is the same so where the link will lead is up to the browser settings of the visitor.
No one has ever claimed that Rindt wouldn't have raced as an Austrian, that is what I clearly stated in the edit I made. The point - the only point - made is that Rindt wasn't an Austrian citizen, his nationality wasn't Austrian. As for the nationality it's entirely irrelevant if he represented Germany, Austria, Jamaica or Qatar. There is no such thing as F1 nationality. There is a racing licence and a nationality. Two entirely separate issues even if in most cases the racing licence is from the same country as the passport. Rindt is an exception, not a part of a general rule - it is useless to try to apply the general rule to an exception.
Rindt was allowed to race for Austria because he had an Austrian licence. A specific citizenship is not necessary for a racing licence. Rindt could have easily got an Austrian passport if he wanted to, that's absolutely true. He however never chose to do so, could have been Austrian citizen if he wanted to does not equal was Austrian citizen. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 00:11, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I have never said that Rindt was not German, or that he was wholly Austrian. My point is that you cannot represent a country in F1 if you are not partially of that nationality. They are absolutely not separate issues, you are simply wrong about that. There is absolutely such a thing as a sporting nationality. For those drivers with dual nationality, they represent once country, not two, such as Nico Rosberg. He chose Germany, and his infobox shows it. Nelson Piquet, Jr. races for Brazil, despite being born in Germany and having a Dutch mother. His infobox shows Brazil. In Rindt's case, yes he had an Austrian licence. He would not have been allowed to use that in F1 if did not have Austrian heritage. That came from his mother. One cannot randomly choose which country one drives for in F1, like one can in other sports such as athletics. You either have to become a citizen of the chosen country, or have some claim of nationality, like how it works in football. I have never claimed that Rindt was an Austrian citizen, and the infobox is not about that. I have claimed, because it is a fact - that his sporting nationality was Austrian. I can see you insist on edit-warring on this page, so I will leave it for someone else to deal with. Having two nationalities in the infobox is not acceptable because Rindt never raced for Germany, and the infobox is not concerned with what his passport said, only his nationality as a racing driver. The fact that you cannot understand that is irrelevant. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:28, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I see you've also removed a perfectly valid source that you just didn't agree with, and replaced it again with a non-English source (see WIKIPEDIA:NONENG) to suit your POV. I would suggest you revert that. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:33, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
And why are you only interested in editing the English article, adding sources in German, but you leave the German version to show that Rindt was Austrian? Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:37, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
The mentioned book does not exist in English, according to the guideline non-English sources are perfectly acceptable - English ones only are preferred when they exist. This applies to one specific source, it does not mean that any English source is more reliable and preferred over any non-English source. A random webpage simply isn't more reliable than a literary title by a serious publisher or another encyclopedia by the Austrian government.
I have no POV, and I'm sorry that you even choose to go for personal insults, I consider that to be a very low level of argumentation. It's not a biased argument to state that Rindt wasn't of Austrian nationality if he never was an Austrian citizen.
As for the German Wikipedia article, I see absolutely no factual errors in it. It does not claim at any point that his nationality would have been Austrian. It states that it was the wish of Rindt's grandfather that he retained his German citizenship but drove with an Austrian racing licence, which is true. Rindt represented Austria and only Austria. For his racing career it is entirely irrelevant if he had a German citizenship or not. It is relevant only then, when someone does claims about his nationality - no matter how great champion for Austria he was, and he was truely a great one, his nationality never was Austrian. In true life out there this does not matter, we celebrate him as an Austrian hero, but encyclopedias are only about facts and facts only. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 01:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, I was not referring to the book source, but the encyclopedia source, which still shows as German. I am well aware of the validity of book sources. You have not addressed the fact that you removed the source I added, without any explanation.

Secondly, I'd like you to retract your accusation that I personally insulted you and engaged in a low level of argument. I never once accused you of bias. Wikipedia requires you to WP:Assume good faith. What do you mean, you have no point of view?? So why are you here?

Thirdly, the German article says Rindt was an Austrian racing driver of German-Austrian descent, does it not? So why do you not allow that on the English version? Here the previous version didn't even claim he was Austrian. You changed it from "German-Austrian" to "German". You appear to be contradicting yourself. Furthermore, the German version clearly shows an Austrian flag under Rindt's photo. Do you not consider that this strongly implies he was Austrian? You clearly understand that citizenship is not connected to the country someone represents, so all you need to do now is understand that the infobox is solely concerned with his F1 career. It is not a biographical infobox, it is an F1 infobox, and the only flag / country required is Austria, the country for which he raced in F1. The link explains what "nationality" means in this case, that is why the link is there. This has come up before with other drivers and this was how it was resolved. I don't know how else to explain it to you. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

1. The encyclopedia is in English. Please click the button over the article where it says English.
2. I am only interested in facts, not to promote this or that. I don't have a point of view - I'm interested in questions that are strictly yes or no. The citizenship of a person is one such question. I find it unsuitable for an encyclopedia to offer points of view, there are other much better forums for that. Encyclopedias are about facts, facts, facts.
3. I have no problems with Rindt being an Austrian race driver, I didn't even include the category for German F1 drivers, only his nationality wasn't Austrian. Personally my years abroad have made me a bit this and that, but it does not mean that I would have several nationalities. In the German Wikipedia article it clearly states that Rindt was an Austrian race driver (Österreichischer Rennfahrer) and that he had a German nationality (Deutscher Staatsbürger), this is correct. There is also a pretty Austrian flag but important: without any claim that it would stand for nationality. The only problem here is the claim that his nationality would have been Austrian. That's the wrong claim. It is severed by what is stated in the article where the link leads to: according to that article (correctly) the racing licence and nationality are two separate issues. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 02:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
P.S. There are no partial nationalities. You don't have a partial passport, either you have it or you don't have it. During the time Rindt was still alive obtaining a dual citizenship wasn't even legal in Germany or Austria. To obtain a racing licence from, say, Austria you do not need to be an Austrian citizen. The article 110.2 of the International Sporting Code of FIA states that the national federations are allowed to grant licences to the citizens of other countries if the applicant resides permanently in the country of the national federation receiving the application. This was the case with Rindt when he received his Austrian licence. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 02:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
1. Why not just post the link in English?
2. The infobox does not mention citizenship, nor does it offer a "point of view". You still seem to misunderstand the purpose of the infobox. Of course you have a point of view, otherwise you would not be here. Having a point of view is not the same as having bias. You do not seem to have retracted your accusation that I insulted you.
3. So if we have two statements - a) Rindt was Austrian, and b) Rindt's nationality was Austrian - you consider these two statements to be entirely different? Really? So why doesn't this article say he was an Austrian racing driver? You changed it to German, even though you've just said here that you're happy for it to say he was Austrian. Your view that the flag does not represent nationality is hard to understand. What do you think it represents then? What is it doing there? I say again, that the "nationality" link in the infobox refers only to his sporting activity, as explained. But you don't understand that.
4. That is utterly wrong. Millions of people have split nationalities. If you have two parents from different countries, you have a split nationality. If your mother is French and your father Spanish, you are quite reasonably French-Spanish. In most cases you can have two passports. If you only choose to have a French passport, this does not mean you disown your Spanish heritage or nationality. Not everyone who can claim more than one passport does so. Just because Rindt was not permitted to hold two passports, this does not mean he was consequently 100% German. Citizenship and nationality are not interchangeable terms.
With regard to the racing licence point, we know this already. The section of the ISC you quoted is exactly the basis of the text that the nationality link in the infobox points to. If we're going to progress to the ISC, then I'll direct you to Section 112, which states: "All drivers, irrespective of the nationality of their licence, participating in any FIA World Championship event, shall retain the nationality of their passport in all official documents, meetings, information bulletins and prize-giving ceremonies." This would include all the official results bulletins as consistently shown throughout history, and on the official F1 website (a link to which you deleted), in which he is shown as Austrian. It also includes podium ceremonies, during which the Austrian flag was raised for Rindt and the Austrian anthem played. This would strongly indicate that in fact his nationality, as well as his licence, was Austrian after all. Bretonbanquet (talk) 03:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

134.93: The nationality in the F1 infobox is exclusively for the nationality a driver competes for in F1. In Rindt's case this is Austrian only and I have removed the section on German nationality from the infobox. The only time two nationalities should appear there is if a driver has competed for two countries (a rare occurence). As it happens, I agree that because the field is called 'Nationality', it may be confusing when a driver's 'real' nationality differs from the one he races under. I'm not sure we can rely entirely on the current ISC, which may not have included the clause about passports in the 1960s. However, I suggest rather than taking an approach for this one article that is different than that taken for all the hundreds of others on Wikipedia, we propose a change to the F1 infobox to call the field something else ('sporting nationality' or 'competed for'). I will start a discussion at WP:F1. 4u1e (talk) 04:54, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Discussion on infoboxes started here. 4u1e (talk) 05:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

First Motor Racing's vs. first F1 World Champion[edit]

The article makes a statement that Rindt was first motor racing's posthumous world champion. Is there an evidence that in no other category of motor racing there never was a driver before Rindt who achieved the title posthumously? If not (or if there's any doubt) I would suggest changing the article in this respect.cherkash (talk) 00:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no doubt. World Championships in motor racing have all been very well documented. Most world championships did not exist in 1970 so the potential for doubt is much smaller compared to todays proliferation of the use of the term 'World Champion'. --Falcadore (talk) 00:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Could you list ALL pre-1970 world championships in motor racing?cherkash (talk) 05:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Farina, Fangio, Ascari, Hawthorn, Brabham, Phil Hill, Graham Hill, Clark, Surtees, Hulme, Stewart is the entire list from motor racing, which generally only includes cars, but if we include motorcycles the list expands to: Leslie Graham, Freddie Frith, Bruno Ruffo, Nello Pagani, Umberto Masetti, Bob Foster, Dario Ambrosini, Geoff Duke, Carlo Ubbiali, Enrico Lorenzetti, Cecil Sandford, Fergus Anderson, Werner Haas, Rupert Hollaus, Bill Lomas, Hermann Paul Müller, Libero Liberati, Keith Campbell, Tarquinio Provini, Gary Hocking, Mike Hailwood, Tom Phillis, Jim Redman, Luigi Taveri, Ernst Degner, Hugh Anderson, Phil Read, Ralph Bryans, Giacomo Agostini, Hans-Georg Anscheidt, Bill Ivy, Kel Carruthers, Dave Simmonds, Ángel Nieto and - depending at what point the 1970 seasons ended - Rodney Gould and Dieter Braun.
That is the entire list. --Falcadore (talk) 06:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
It is worth remembering that the predecessor of World Rally Championship was still three years in the future in 1970 and the drivers title would not be awarded until Björn Waldegård was recognised in 1979. The now defunct World Sportscar Championship was purely a Manufacturers Championship until Bob Garretson was awarded the first driver's title in 1981. The first World Touring Car Championship was held in 1987, and the World GT1 Championship is brand new, only a season old.
While I'm not completely sure about the myriad of Karting titles, the now (temporarily?) defunct World Superkart Championship was awarded to Martin Hines in only 1983. Karting is additionally treated outside from car racing, a different discipline in the same way as motorcycles. Even were we to include Air Racing, the Red Bull Air Race was a creation of the 2000s.
It perhaps needs to be mentioned that Rindt's sad statistic is not only incredibly rare, I can not categorically say off the top of my head that it is not unique. --Falcadore (talk) 06:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
The way I understand your post, is that you are making a claim that no other championship (or series of competitions) in motor racing, and at no time between end of 19th century and 1970, was called a world championship, except for Formula 1 in car racing and world championship in motorcycles (whose champions you explicitly listed). By extension I assume you are making a claim that no other winner of any other motor racing series pre-1970 was ever called a world champion except in F1. I find it not so easy to believe, since there were many semi-local series around the world, and in some regions (notably in North America) there's a tendency to give world series or world championship titles to local series.
So did I understand you correctly? And if so, what's the support for your claim? You seem to mention some championships that were not in existence till after 1970, but no mention of any exhaustive list of what was in existence to support your claim. It'd be great if we could provide more precise references to support this claim in the article.
cherkash (talk) 06:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
That is the basis of your claim? You want to include every made up title run at tiny bull rings with no sanctioning authority whatsoever?
Apart from the fact the World Series not only is not World champion, in it's myriad of forms is not treated with the same force as the term world champion - (remembering that Baseball, the most famous usage of the term World Series actually derives from a sponsorship - a publication called 'The World'). Similarly World Cup, used on occasion for Rallying and Touring Cars, has never been treated with the same respect as World Champion.
Theoretically I could give two mice motorised matchboxes and run them the length of my desk and call it a world championship and you might claim it as a dispute. It is not Wikipedia's remit to recognise events that the rest of motorsport does not. Credibility is every bit as important as word perfect accuracy. Wikipedia does not elevate the mundane any more than the rest of the world does, it is not the job of Wikipedia to make new establishments, that runs afoul of WP:OR.
That having been said - other championships have simply used other terminolgies. Pre-World War II, Formula One was known European Championship, when international series existed. The individual races noted down by history across the Americas and Europe used terminology like International or Intercontinental and were, like NASCAR, more domestically focused with domestic names, or particularly in North America, sponsorship and prizemoney dictated the naming of many prestigious motor racing events. The term Grand Prix, occasinally forcibly translated into English as Grand Prize, rose as the title of choice for the most prestigious races in a nation when international series simply did not exist. Even today the United States is famously domestically focussed in motor racing. NASCAR still does not hold a single event outside its borders despite the ease of travelling short distances into Canada or Mexico with facilities more than able to hold Sprint Cup events.
The gathering of many events under a single banner was a relatively rare occurance prior to World War II. The world was a different and much more parochial place prior to the two World Wars. Nations were much more independant of each other and such competitions not exactly commonplace. The Olympic Games is the perfect example of sports not using 'World Championship' terminology.
Put most simply, the term World Championship was not a common place term in most sports until relatively recent times. --Falcadore (talk) 07:27, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I do not disagree with your argument or your conclusions. I think it would be useful to summarize what you said here as a brief note to the claim in the article itself, so that the link between Rindt being the first posthumous world champion in F1 and him being first posthumous champion in all motor racing in general became not a stretch of one's imagination (which should depend on reader's pre-existing knowledge), but a fact established by proper references. Would you be willing to make a properly-referenced change in the article?cherkash (talk) 08:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

How about if we change it to say that Rindt was "the first posthumous Formula One World Champion" or "the first posthumous World Drivers' Champion" - would either of those be acceptable? DH85868993 (talk) 07:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I think this would be a trivial and obvious claim — and the one I tried to avoid making by starting the discussion here, since I think being the first posthumous motor racing champion is a more interesting and wide claim. Hence, I would ask again: would any one of you be willing to change the article to support this claim, rather than making a trivial and banal change of Rindt just being first such F1 champion?cherkash (talk) 08:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Ivan Rendall's The Chequered Flag refers to Rindt as "the only driver to be named World Champion after his death", with no specific mention of Formula One. The book refers to itself as "the complete history of motor racing" and covers the period from 1894 to 2007 (in my edition, there are more recent ones, I think). Good enough for a reference? If not, David Tremayne's new book might have something. 4u1e (talk) 20:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
I think either one of those could be a good missing reference. Could you add it to the article?cherkash (talk) 03:33, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Plagiarism?[edit]

Large parts of the current text of this article are identical to parts of the cited reference http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/race_drivers_jochen_rindt.htm I'm not sure what to do about this, but wanted to draw it to the attention of other editors. Ian Page (talk) 20:10, 6 March 2013 (UTC)