Talk:John Tyndall (politician)

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Notability[edit]

"Unfortunately Tyndall resembled Colin Jordan from the point of view that he worshipped his mother. On his 30th birthday (still unmarried and living with his mother) he invited his faithful to a party where his mother presented a birthday cake which she had baked especially for the occasion. The day was a Friday and time was 6pm. At that particular moment a pop show called Ready Steady Go presented by a local girl named Cathy McGowan was screened on the TV. Everyone dashed off into the back room to watch Cathy while Tyndall remained alone in the front room with tears streaming down his face, crying over his mother's uneaten cake." Does this really need to be in a section about ideology? I hate the nazis as much as anyone, but I really don't see what it has to do with his ideology. 143.167.78.30 16:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC) Samiam

This is a bit pointless. It could be cut down to "this jerk got nowhere with his silly Nazi views". But since he got nowhere, and is a dolt, why mention him?

Indeed his silly Nazi views got him nowhere. But his party (the BNP) is slowly getting somewhere in the UK, I'd heard of the guy before I found the wikipedia, so he is definitely notable. Jackliddle 07:05, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There is a very good reason for mentioning him - he was probably the most important figure within Britain's far-right during the post-WW2 period bar none, regardless of what anyone thinks of him as a person or his politics - there was a good reason for Searchlight magazine's obsession with him over & beyond his "tabloid sensationalism" appeal (Colin Jordan & Martin Webster could boast as much).

In terms of sheer work "for the cause", no one else matched to the same degree of enthusiasm/obsession (call it what you will) as Tyndall. Much of the direction that the 1970s National Front - and thus the British far-right in the main - was to take was down to him & his machinations (particularly his habit of undermining fellow party members he thought of as "rivals" and ensuring his acolytes advanced in party ranks), shaping the rise and fall of the two main post-war far-right parties in the UK, and with it that curious type of politics known as "British Nationalism" which lies and overlaps between the more hard-line patriotism of old fashioned Conservative types within the likes of the Monday Club and the outright racist groups steeped in ever deepening extremes of obsession and echoes of violence.

Tyndall's death marked a watershed, and it may well be that time will show that the sort of uncompromising "racial nationalism" he spent the best part of every spare moment of his life promoting - with its echoes of anti-semitism and white supremicism - will largely vanish from view in Britain for good, or at least be submerged under more compromising versions more in keeping with the British temprement demanding some level of tolerence and moderation.

Mark_Boyle

Age[edit]

The bbc says he died at 72 rather than 71. Who is right? MyNameIsClare talk 14:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is, of course! David | Talk 15:13, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
So we are - BBC has changed to 71! MyNameIsClare talk 15:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Offensive Language[edit]

I have removed the offensive statement about his death. Regardless oif what people think of him, and I didn't think much, I think it is sick to write this sort of thing on an encyclopedia that children have free access to. - 82.37.139.181

When did he die?[edit]

The article states he died today (19 July 2005), but so far I've just heard he was found dead. Could he have died yesterday?

"Sussex Police said there were no suspicious circumstances surrounding Mr Tyndall's death which was reported at 0815 BST on Tuesday." - BBC - Tuesday being 19 July. Could have been last night or this morning. Today is the only date we have so far - David Gerard 16:42, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Examination of his body for post-mortem lividity, post-mortem measurement of core body temperature, etc. could probably narrow the time of death, but since there were no suspicious circumstances to justify such an investigation, we'll probably never know. -- The Anome 16:45, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

The YMCA song[edit]

I was a member of the National Front for 17 years. This was in the past though and I've since become very disillusioned and in similar fashion to Matthew Collins, am now working for Searchlight magazine. I was a close friend of John Tyndall, and was there when the song was formulated. It is not mentioned explicitly anywhere for obvious reasons (incitement to racial hatred). Which is why the NF do not publicise it, and every time it is referred to on their Drypool guestbook it is immediately removed by a moderator. Shortly for Searchlight I will be officially exposing this and some other things. -- posted by user:62.254.64.14

Be that as it may, there are two problems. The first is that what you state amounts to original research, since it's not verifiable, and so it can't be included in the article. The second is that the IP you're using has frequently been used by a vandal (which may or may not be you); I suggest if you want to contribute seriously you create a user name. Exploding Boy 00:38, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

If I had a pound for everyone I've ever encountered amongst the far-left & far-right that claims to have been "a close friend of John Tyndall" (which anyone with any knowledge of the man would realise that is a contradiction in terms) or a spy for the now largely tarnished Searchlight magazine (who never really recovered their credibility after the Tim Hepple/Larry O'Hara debacle of 1992-1993), I'd be a millionaire!

The above sadly highlights the main problems for anyone researching the myriad twists and turns of Britain's far-right (& of Britain's political fringes as a whole) - it is a world (ie. both themselves & their opponents) filled with the same sort of Walter Mitty types usually to be found amongst the interests of your average "Fortean Times" reader, and trying to separate both sides fantasies from reality would tax the patience of a saint.

Thankfully there is plenty of NF archive material deposited in places such as the National Library of Scotland and the University of Southampton for those seeking disambiguation (as well of course of numerous newspaper reports available in hundreds of reference libraries nationwide), however there remains gaps and the "sensationalist" persona of the NF alone means that the chances of more sober analysis being made are limited.

For anyone looking for information on the NF, a healthy degree of skepicism is certainly required at the offing.

Mark_Boyle 21 October 2005

Arrests[edit]

"Tyndall was convicted of incitement to racial hatred in 1986 and was jailed three times" Details needed! Rich Farmbrough 14:31, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Categorisation[edit]

The category for extra-Parliamentary Conservative activists is there for the spectrum of people further right than the Conservative Party without becoming authoritarian. It is not for the organised far right, and Tyndall fits more accurately into this group. It also seems like a way of proving "guilt by association" for the other people in the category. David | Talk 10:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:John Tyndall.jpg[edit]

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Image:John Tyndall.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It's the wrong Tyndal, it's John Tyndall (Canadian poet) and looks nothing like the BNP guy!--86.29.135.167 (talk) 04:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Death[edit]

What was the cause? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 06:46, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Tyndall was a fascist![edit]

Editor Yorkshirian is going out of his way to remove "fascist" as a description of John Tyndall. This is totally false. Tyndall spent a lifetime in, usually leading, fascist groups including some that were overtly Nazi in character. Indeed, he was imprisoned for organising a Nazi style private army (Spearhead). The artricle itself covers all of this and following the links to the oraganisations he was associated with backs this up. Of course he wasn't a member of the BUF - he was too young - but then not every fascist in Briatain was in the BUF even when it existed. There is not a single reliable source anywhere (there's a challenge!) that says Tyndall was not a fascist, and that is not the view of, as Yorkshirian would say, the far left but of respected academic writers, journalists, mainstream politicians and, it has to be said, the far right as well. Inventing descriptions that no one else uses ("radical nationalism") is just not on. Emeraude (talk) 11:36, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Tyndall allowed Jews in the National Front: Gerry Viner and Albert Elder- both were Orthodox Jews! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.178.253 (talk) 06:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

So what? Fascism and anti-semitism are not synonymous - it is perfectly possible to be one and not the other. More importantly, no matter how many Jews may have been in the NF, it is beyond doubt that a) Tyndall was a fascist and b) Tyndall was anti-semitic. Incidentally, you may like to read the following words of Tyndall's, written in his own magazine Spearhead in September 1995: "In fact, just a year ago a situation arose in which it was necessary for me to make a ruling on the question of whether membership of the party should be open to Jews. I ruled that it should not."{Source: Spearhead Sept '95, online here.) Of course, by now he was talking aboout the BNP. Emeraude (talk) 15:13, 15 January

2010 (UTC)

I have read his book 'The Eleventh Hour' and he does not go obsessive about Jews but just small individual ones who cause problems within the government. He was not much of a fascist, he supported democracy and wanted that it be reformed. Still, he tolerated Jews in this country and he was only against individual ones. In the old days of the BNP in the early 90s, the party had a Jewish candidate called Maxwell, perhaps if he were to allow Jews into the party, it would have probably shown that the party would have become pro-Zionist and therefore shutting down free speech on historical revisionists as the party has done now. Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.178.253 (talk) 21:52, 17 January 2010
"He was not much of a fascist" You what!? He was one of the leading fascists of post-war Britain! He was a member of the National Socialist Movement, whose name ratrher gives it away, before setting up his own equally odious groups. Don't read his book, read any number of independent books and newspaper articles between the 60s and today which demonstrate just what a Nazi he was. Look at the photos of him in Nazi uniform in the 60s before he tried to appear respectable. Read what other fascists of the time say about him. "He was not against 'individual Jews'"; it is highly probable that he may have good relations with 'individual Jews'. Tyndall was and out-and-out anti-semite and there is more than ample evidence of this, including in his own writings. To suggest otherwise is just hopelessly naïve. "he supported democracy and wanted that it be reformed" What!? This is the man who regularly denigrated democracy as "government by head counting" and had nothing but contempt for ordinary people. He supported democracy in exactly the same way that his hero Hitler supported democracy - it got him into power. Hell, just read the Wikipedia article!!!!Emeraude (talk) 14:59, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

No, he was one of the leading Nationalists in post-war Britain, he was only involved in the NS movement for a while and rejected it because he did not admire Nazism for that much. All those articles were written in the 1960s in his past before joining the NF. He went from an out-and-out anti-Semite to an anti-Zionist as he allowed Orthodox Jews in the NF so that is hardly likely that the NF was National Socialist. He denigrated liberal democracy as weak and soft, he was more in favour of direct national democracy. Hitler admitted that his plan was to abolish democracy whereas Tyndall did not, Tyndall was not in favour of abolishing other political parties while he was in the NF. Before joining the NF, Andrew Fountaine and Arthur Chesterton made sure that Tyndall could join so long as he no longer associate with Nazism. Over the years, Tyndall became less Judeo-obsessive. Bear in mind, Alan Clarke the former MP for Plymouth Sutton said that he was a Nazi and said that it was a shame that it was extinguished, so does that mean that the Tories were Nazis? No. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.178.253 (talk) 12:02, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Keep on apologising for Tyndall, but the fact remains he was a Nazi for more than "a while" and wasbanned from joing the NF because the other leaders knew this. He never, ever, disavowd his early views - he just got better at hiding them, though not clever enough. And yes, just like Hitler he didn't want other parties banned before getting into power; how could he???? And I think you'll find that there orthodox Jews in the Nazi Party and in Mussolini's Fascists for a while - so what? Emeraude (talk) 13:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
There were no Orthodox Jews in Hitler's Nazi party but there were in Mussolini's Fascist party because the Fascists were not anti-Semitic until the Nazis started to dominate Italy. The NF has never been National Socialist, it may have had some but that is not much because it is only a minority and the Labour party had a few Communist members but that does not mean that the Labour party was Communist. Tyndall just rejected Nazism when he was in the NF and when he formed the BNP, he was not that obsessed with Jews that much but Zionists so that does not make him much of a Nazi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.178.253 (talk) 15:46, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Its simple, third party sources are needed, non currnetly exist, 94.192.142.38 (talk) 13:49, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

You're all wrong[edit]

John Tyndall was not a Fascist.

Fascism was a phenomenon unique to Italy during the 1920s/30s/40s, under Mussolini. It was an attempt to unite the working classes and "big-business" in some kind of Italian nationalistic expansionism. There was no expression of anti-semitism under Fascism. There was no expression of racism under Fascism, other than the normal degree of contempt that Europeans held for all other races, that prevailed at the time: "Coons start at Calais, etc"

John Tyndall was a British Nationalist, a racist (as he enthusiastically conceded) and and anti-semite, and therefore of no relation whatsoever to a "Fascist".

82.5.68.95 (talk) 04:57, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

You're even more wrong. According to you, there was then no British Union of Fascists, Imperial Fascist League, National Fascisti, the Dutch Fascist Union, the General Dutch Fascist League, the Albanian Fascist Party, the Canadian Union of Fascists, the Russian Fascist Party, National Fascist Movement (and its predecessors, the National Italo-Romanian Cultural and Economic Movement and the National Romanian Fascia) etc. etc. etc. And that's just those that used the F word in their name. In the 1930s, the Italian Foreign Ministry even published a survey on fascist parties in other countries. Tyndall was not just a fascist, he was the particularly nasty type known as Nazi. Emeraude (talk) 16:55, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Tyndall was a British Nationalist and an anti-Zionist. I think that it is better that we stop calling him a neo-Nazi, there is nothing Nazi about his book 'The Eleventh Hour' —Preceding unsigned comment added by NatDemUK (talkcontribs) 16:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I posted two assessments from academics on your talk page that he was a Neo-Nazi. Your opinion of Tyndall is not useful: we work from sources. Fences&Windows 20:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

no autoaim here[edit]

Wikipedia doent call NF a fascist movement, I would like to know what was wrong with my edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by No autoaim (talkcontribs) 22:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

It does, actually. In the info box, it (correctly) describes the NF's ideology as "fascist". And the article on the BNP notes that "the party's predecessor, the NF, was overtly fascist". RolandR (talk) 23:27, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Reinstatement of intro[edit]

User 94.192.142.38 has repeatedly attempted to remove descriptions of Tyndall as fascist and anti-semitic, claiming that the "source dosent support statement" or that it is a "scandalous and slanderous unsourced label". These edits have been reversed by other editors and I am going to do so again.

The source is The Times obituary, a reliable source, which says of Tyndall that "Throughout his career he was vehemently anti-Semitic as well as a firm believer in white racial superiority." It goes on to say that he founded the first BNP to "preserve the Northern European race and free Britain from Jewish domination and coloured influx" (Tyndall's words) and that "In 1962 Tyndall and Jordan left the BNP to found the British National Socialist Movement. As secretary of this new fascist body, Tyndall began to attract the attention of the media. He was noted for his virulent anti-semitism, and was regularly photographed in Nazi-style brownshirt getup." The article also refers to "his avowed admiration of Hitler" and describes him as "an obssessively anti-Semitic autocrat".

I think that is all pretty well summed up in the Wikipedia article as "Throughout his career he was vehemently anti-Semitic as well as a firm believer in white racial superiority." and allows the description "fascist" in the intro. In any case, these issues are covered in more detail with reliable sources in the main body of the article.

On a wider point, it really doesn't matter what Tyndall's position was at his death or in later life, though there is no great evidence that he ever changed his views. If he had just joined the Communist Party it wouldn't alter the fact that for most of his life he was a fascist, had been a leading neo-Nazi (National Socialist Movement, for goodness sake), and a virulent anti-semite. We're dealing here with what he was known for, not with what some would have us belive he never did or later recanted (he didn't). His supporters and apologists may not like it, but that's the way it is. Emeraude (talk) 20:18, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


The times obituary you cite is a broken link and thus no such verification can be made at present, there is no way you could know that the times sources makes those allegations unless you have a hard copy yourself, especially the direct quotes you have made. I would generally like to read the article so if you can provide a link please do post it me, im not going to engage in an edit war, im not a socialist and thus i don’t engage in violence when i don’t get my own way, i believe in rules and regulation and wikipedia clearly states that third party sources need to be provided. If the article was that of a living person then there is no way those statements would be acceptable. 94.192.142.38 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC).

Quote: "im not a socialist and thus i don’t engage in violence when i don’t get my own way". Strange notion of socialism you have there. Anyway, The Times reference will now only be available online if you pat a subscription since News International put its websites behind a pay wall. You may note that the source was accessed on 26 June 2008 and has clearly been referred to by WIkipedia editors since then, or it would have been challenged long ago. You will find similar statements in the other references for the article, particularly the obituaries. As to your assertion that "If the article was that of a living person then there is no way those statements would be acceptable", this is nonsense - if the sources say it, we use it. Emeraude (talk) 10:48, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
Strangely, I have just tried the link to The Times and it works perfectly. Must be that old obits are not behind the pay wall.Emeraude (talk) 10:48, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
For some reason i cant read the article, ill assume good faith anyway. 94.192.142.38 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:42, 2 October 2011 (UTC).
Still works for me. The link is [1] Emeraude (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)