Talk:Jonathan Swift

JONATHAN SWIFT'S REAL NAME IS SIMON WAGSTAFF... HE CHANGED IT TO JONATHAN SWIFT...... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.4.255.121 (talk) 20:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Clean up

ok, the idea is this, print up a couple of fliers, once I get to school and start hanging posters around the English dept. so people can clean up these rather skimpy entries! Swift was a veritable superstar in his time.

Citations

Currently in the main article there is this paragraph: When he returned to Ireland in September he was accompanied by Stella — now twenty years old — and her friend Mrs. Dingley. They were ecstatic to see each other, and in the moment, they fornicated repeatedly. The church almost even revoked his ordinance as a priest for his premarital fun. These two even gave each other oral sex, which in the time, was looked down upon. It has been said that Esther "liked the cock." But these hormones are not uncommon for a twenty year old. There's a great deal of mystery and controversy over Swift's relationship with Stella. Many hold that they were secretly married in 1716. Although there has never been definite proof of this, there is no doubt that she was dearer to him than anyone else, and that his feelings for her did not change her throughout his life. I checked four other sources/biographies on Jonathan Swift and none of them say anything about this. Where does this information come from? Regardless of the information being offending or not, information that is not obvious such as this, expecially presented in such a unprofessional manner ("liked the cock.") should be cited before added to the main article. -- The guy who wrote that is a vandal.. Look at 209.36.39.2's history. His IP address indicates he's a Christian military cadet (http://www.fuma.org/AboutFUMA/index.html). Either that, or they have been hacked. I have reverted it.

Changes to the Writings Section

I have significantly revised and expanded the Writings section. This includes establishing categories (Major Prose, Essays etc., Poems, Sermons & Prayers, Miscellany), and greatly expanding the number of Swift's works listed, and providing external links to most of those works where possible. I also corrected some of the dates. The sheer breadth of links may be an issue--do you think there are too many? Should we stick to Swift's most important works and provide links to general collections only? I thought about doing this, but Swift texts are so scattered all over the internet one must do a great deal of textual sleuthing just to find a few different works. I thought it would be apropos to offer a more centralized listing. If someone disagrees please say so. I plan to revise some parts of the biography in the future as well, focusing on documentation. *Note: the revision is logged under 65.151.124.216 but it's mine: I forgot to log on prior to submitting it. TickleText 17:04, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

What's this mean?

"He soon, however, obtained the living of Laracor, Agher, and Rathbeggan..." Might be good to clue readers what a "prebend" is too -- some specific kind of religious venue? Milo 08:03, 3 January 2006 (UTC) Oxford English Dictionary, my friend Fearwig 14:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC) Eh, for "prebend" I mean. I'm not sure the rest would be in there. *snicker* Fearwig 14:14, 1 May 2006 (UTC) A 'Living' is a clergyman's benefice or position, and Laracor is a parish in Moyfenrath barony in south Meath, Agher is in Deece barony just north of it, also in Meath, and Rathbeggan is north-east of both of them in Ratoath barony, also in Meath. If you're really curious, you can see precisely where they are on this map. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 04:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Was Swift's political satire politically effective?

Was his satirical writing instrumental in obtaining legislation, social reform, or other change? I read somewhere an account answering this question, but couldn't find it again. Milo 08:03, 3 January 2006 (UTC) jonathan swift is a cool writer dude.

Jon Swift

some people think that he was just a good writer but he was even better than people think he had written alot of books,poems, prayers and things like that most people don't care about other than writers. Also his satirical writing instrumental in obtaining legislation, social reform, or other change? I read somewhere an account answering this question, but couldn't find it again.

---

I think it would be hard to assess his actual impact on the political scene of his time...he was more of a political pampleteer, supporting causes where others were the primary actors. One case where he may be generally credited for effecting a change in policy is his "Drapier's Letters". Public opinion was already against the contract for the new coinage, but Swift provided a rallying point that helped force the withdrawal of the proposal. Here is one eminent opinion: "Swift must be allowed for a time, to have dictated the political opinions of the English nation." Dr. Johnson [as quoted by Thackeray, The English Humourists] As to his quality of his writing, here's a few good quotes: "pray forgive an admirer of you, who ows to yr writings the love he bears to yr language..." Voltaire, letter to Swift, 14 December 1727 "One can only repeat what Scott says somewhere about Swift's style, perhaps the purest and strongest we have in the language. "Swift's style," said Scott, "seems so simple that one would think any child might write as he does, and yet if we try we find to our despair that it is impossible." XVI. Webster. ¤ 7. Webster's Developed Style. The Cambridge History of English and American Literature. 1907-21. http://www.bartleby.com/226/0707.html "Swift's style is, in its line, perfect; the manner is a complete expression of the matter, the terms appropriate, and the artifice concealed. It is simplicity in the true sense of the word." Samuel Coleridge, Lecture on Style, 1818 "No better style in English prose was ever written, or can be," William Dean Howells, "Preface," Gulliver's Travels, 1913. [quoted by Noel Perrin, Dr. Bowdler's Legacy. New York : Atheneum, 1969, p. 224.] "... Swift, the greatest writer of English prose, and the greatest man who has ever written great English prose..." T.S. Eliot, Clark Lectures, 1926 in The Varieties of Metaphysical Poetry. Faber & Faber, 1993 Ldjaffe 22:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC) ldjaffe

Poetry

he wrote "The Legions Club" too? Should it be added to the list of the Poetry he has wrote?

link

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry

• probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections?

---

I took a look and it's a pretty poor biography... full of odd bits and pieces and badly in need of some copy editing ("Tripple Alliance"). There are plenty of better examples with some authority. One I recommend is from his alma mater at Oxford: http://alumniweb.hertford.ox.ac.uk/main/index.php?option=displaypage&Itemid=67&op=page&SubMenu= Others include Encyclopedia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9380006?query=jonathan%20swift&ct= St. Patrick's Cathedral http://www.stpatrickscathedral.ie/History_07_swift.htm The History Channel http://www.historychannel.com/thcsearch/thc_resourcedetail.do?encyc_id=223501 Ldjaffe 22:03, 14 April 2006 (UTC) ldjaffe

please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead. This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article. a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt. thanks. --He:ah? 20:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Works

The Works section is a mess. Whoever wrote it seems very disrespectful of his subject, whom he insists on referring to as "Jonathan" rather than the more appropriate "Swift". I've deleted the redundant and sloppy biographical material that was there, but it requires a thorough going-over before it can be considered worthwhile. Ldjaffe 06:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)ldjaffe I think I bit off more than I can chew. Rather than try to "fix"what is already there -- I'm a little uncertain what to do with what others have written except when it is clearly wrong and there is so much I'd have to rework -- I've started a second version (take two). Ldjaffe 21:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)ldjaffe

I've taken a pass at cleaning up the Works section...I incorporated the "second version" into the first, since it's confusing to have two different Works sections. I think it's more encyclopedic to have one section that we can fix than to try to maintain two parallel and competing sections. Fumblebruschi 23:00, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Among the other "messes" in the works section is the misspelling of the editor of his poems--Pat Rogers. And Yale UP would be the more appropriate publisher of the collected poems. The publication of Davis' edition of Swift's prose ranges from 1939-68. The publication of David Woolley's edition of Swift's correspondence, which is in four volumes, ranges from 1999-2007. Before that, the standard edition, still cited by many scholars, was Harold Williams' _The Correspondence of Jonathan Swift_ (Oxford UP, 1963-65). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.89.186.35 (talk) 21:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Absolute mess

Why is everything so ridiculously confused here? Even the talk page is screwy. Fearwig 14:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Jump in, Fearwig. Rizzleboffin 15:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Gulliver's Travels NOT a children's book (or considered one)

As it says in the main body of the text. Printed in 1720'sm, there was at such a time no such thing as a 'children's book', it is a fairly recent (i.e. 19th or 20th C) construction. 'Confusion' may arise because there is an 'edited' children's edition that is largely divorced from Swift's original work. Tsop 00:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC) would smeone please tell me why it is not considered a children's book, because i read "Guiliver's Travels" as a child and it seemed like children's book? but why? is the edited version also by Mr. Swift- why does litriture have to be so complicated, is it how it was in the olden days or is there some other reason(user:swosim 16:03,9 September 2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.2.124.254 (talk)

The edited version is fairly recent, and I believe it removes the latter half of the book (along with some adult-themed events, such as Gulliver's encounters with the maids of honor... but I shan't go into that.) I daresay that Gulliver's Travels is absolutely not a childrens' book. 12.157.120.212 (talk) 23:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Road

Their is a road named after him in Dublin , i feel this should be mentioned but couldnt really find a suitible place to add it (Gnevin 18:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC))

Anglo-

The term "Anglo-" is being abused in a lot of introductions. Given that the term can be confusing, it is not a nationality and is basically obsolete in this sense, it's not needed as an intro..he is shown to be of English origin later in the text. Furthermore, if we are to put "Anglo" in front of every person who has English origin in the intro, we should have balance and equality and use "British-Irish" in the intros of millions of people born in Britain with Irish blood or origin, which I think is also unnecessary. Well said maybe the Beatles and Oasis should be cited as Hiberno-Saxon if people continue to use the term Anglo-Irish.

External Links question

This may not be following the "Be Bold" theory of Wikipedia, but a question: The link to Modern satire in the style of Jonathan Swift (at http://www.swiftonia.com/) shows a website with a forum on it. In this forum are all of nine posts across nine topics.. and a sum total of, you guessed it, nine members. Since very little of the website even relates to Swift - more than half being forum rules, one being a verbatim copy of A Modest Proposal, another a copy of this Wikipedia article - I don't think it has much use in this article. Only two items on the forums even vaguely fit the category of "modern satire in the style of Swift." Thus, I'd suggest removing it. Barring anyone else bolder than I or a cogent argument for keeping it, I'll probably do so in the future. Shigernafy 06:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd go ahead and remove it. Guliolopez 10:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Novel, novelist?

I've only read his poetry so am no expert, but I got the impression Swift was also a novelist who wrote novels. The word novel does not appear in the text of the article, neither does novelist. If I am right, I think someone should add such terms where appropriate, eg in the very first sentence. Tommy-Chivs 14:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Pseudonyms?

Did Swift actually publish ALL of his works under pseudonyms? Even Modest Proposal? This is a question, not a point of Error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.206.33.27 (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

His supposed insanity

Just as an addition, it has been found that Swift had what is known today as Meniere's Syndrome, a disease of the inner ear which causes nausea, dizziness, temporary deafness, and extreme pain. This is what was thought to be insanity for a long time. In 1740 he suffered a paralytic stroke that caused aphasia and loss of memory. In 1742 he was declared incapable of caring for himself and was appointed guardians, he died 3 years later. I realize some of that is in the article, but I'm expounding upon most of it.Gotmesomepants (talk) 02:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

FAR notice

A Tale of a Tub has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Cirt (talk) 14:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC).

'Anglo-Irish'

Please do not perpetuate the nonsense than a supposedly 'ethnic' Briton who is of Irish parentage, born and raised in Ireland and of the Protestant faith is 'Anglo-Irish' - that person is indeed Irish. Please do not be neo nazi intolerant twats with your misanthropic view of human history. Please try and think clearly without conducting yourselves in a hate filled manner. Perhaps your ethnic hatreds belong at metapedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.107.170 (talk) 16:29, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Swift's mother was English and his father's father was English. Had he had his way with his career, he would have spent it in London. He was a member of the social class known as the Anglo-Irish. They don't exist any more but they did in the 18th century. Britannica calls Swift Anglo-Irish and I could cite other sources which simply describe him as "English". Now who's the bigot insistent on ethnic purity, Mr Anonymous? --Folantin (talk) 16:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

FYI, Mr. Anonymous is obviously here solely to disrupt so s/he has been blocked. —Wknight94 (talk) 16:45, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Does this take on people that were born in Ireland of English parentage, give us the right to refer people born in England of Irish parentage as 'Anglo-Irish'. It's is an absolute disgrace that editors in Britain are getting away with this, especially when there aren't many editors from Ireland on this site. It suggest that Jonathan Swift be described as Irish.--MaxPride (talk) 19:07, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Do not delete referenced material. We have an entire article on Anglo-Irish. It isn't just some random ethnic term - historically it had a specific social meaning. I'm getting sick of bigots rewriting history without knowing a thing about it (just like the Serb and Croat editors refusing to admit anybody saw themselves as Yugoslavs). --Folantin (talk) 19:12, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

It is an absolute disgrace indeed, have you ever even READ the Drapier's Letters? The man was an Irish patriot.Livedoutroom (talk) 21:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

This term "Anglo-Irish is certainly interesting. In the specific case of Swift, I agree that because he had an English mother and English grandfather he could be referred to as an "Irishman with English lineage." However, it seems that many other Protestant IRISH writers of yesteryear are being referred to as "Anglo Irish" because they spent a lot of their lives in England. In which case are we setting the precedent for Samuel Beckett to no longer be called simply an Irishman but a "Franco-Irishman" because he spent so much of his life in France? The absurdity of it is no greater than this colonial over-use of the term "Anglo Irish". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.107.125.40 (talk) 04:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

From an unbiased point of view (being neither Irish nor a Brit) if people like Swift were Anglo-Irish then shouldn't modern "celebrities" like Wayne Rooney should be Irish-Brits or something like that?

New file File:Jonathan Swift by Francis Bindon.jpg

Recently the file File:Jonathan Swift by Francis Bindon.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. I also placed a new lead image. Dcoetzee 02:55, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Please change "Roges" to "Rogers". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lesliek19 (talk • contribs) 07:06, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

That's a really awful painting. Best not use it, we have enough. --Nutthida (talk) 21:30, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Esther Vanhomrigh

The Esther Vanhomrigh article describes her as Swift's lover. This article is less forthright. -- Beardo (talk) 15:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Swift sense of Humour?

I have heard that Swift was an agelast, one who has no sense of humour, (greek for inability to laugh). This is perhaps trivial but interesting due to Swift's satire (which shows he had empathy). Is this true? Can someone who is knowledgeable of Swift please confirm or deny this, and if it is true it should be added to the article with a reliable source.

Thank you ```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.35.144 (talk) 14:13, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Commercial link

Link at bottom under "E-texts of works" includes a link "jeffebros" which was probably legit but obviously sold out to commercial interests, Remove? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcalvitti (talk • contribs) 12:43, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from MrAvoncroft, 13 July 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Could you add in that Abigail Herrick was born in Wigston Magna, Leicestershire?

MrAvoncroft (talk) 20:46, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. SpigotMap 22:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC) I'm new to Wikipedia so not sure I fully understand the definition of reliable sources. I think this is her christening record http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100307229826&lds=1&region=2&regionfriendly=British+Isles&frompage=99 and certainly the Wikipedia page about Wigston mentions her as being from there(but unsourced) but can't find anything definitive online (her monument is in Leicester cathedral about 4 miles from Wigston and I think I remember the reference coming from Arthur Mee's County history of Leicestershire and Rutland, but as it's not online I can't prove it. Sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrAvoncroft (talk • contribs) 19:25, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Taj2108, 23 July 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Please change: "Inserted into this story, in alternating chapters, Swift includes a series of whimsical "digressions" on various subjects." to "Inserted into this story, in alternating chapters, the narrator (or if you prefer, author) includes a series of whimsical "digressions" on various subjects.": It seems unsupportable, given Swift's career of communicating through satirical personae, to assume that a Tale of a Tub, with its strange diversions from the 'parable', can really be associated with Swift. It would probably be both safer and more accurate to treat the work as another satire and attribute the words to one of his characters?

Taj2108 (talk) 00:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Done Dabomb87 (talk) 01:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Biography link

The links to Swift's biography that lead to JaffeBros are dead; the domain seems to be vacated entirely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.161.9.97 (talk) 18:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Anglo-Irish

Anglo-Irish was the term for a social class, it is not a nationality, so why is being used in the lede instead of his nationality? Sheodred (talk) 22:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Because it's an accurate descriptor of his cultural identity. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 23:42, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Cultural identity is not nationality. It lists him as Irish here under the same site http://www.britannica.com/bps/search?query=Jonathan+Swift</ref> Sheodred (talk) 23:51, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, cultural identity is much more complex than nationality and tells us rather more about an individual. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 23:58, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Swift had a deep love of Ireland and most certainly saw it as his homeland. I have no problem with this, however, I have changed the source, the EB search query lists him as Irish but the main article lists him as Anglo-Irish. Weird. --Nutthida (talk) 21:10, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

1744 OS? Error? My copies fault?

I currently have an 1872 copy of Gulliver's travels which, at the end of a long and illustrated memoir to Swift, claims he died in 1744, not 1745. It still has his birth-date as 1667. Is this just a matter of date formatting, or a simple error in my lovely old copy? OR is the article wrong? :( --Nutthida (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)