Talk:Joseph Campbell

Campbell Was Pro-War

Hey folks, while of course JC was an outright orientalist (check out Edward Said's study on this Western prejudice of 'mythologizing' and primitivizing (my neologism?) and basically institutionalizing and subrogating an array of archeological and anthropological stereotypes gathered and reconfigured and forcefully reinterpreted by white Christias like JC, in Said's masterful work, Orientalism), what I find missing in the main article on JC is his enthusiasm for war (Matthew 24:6), particularly the Vietnam War.

While its great that the biographical controversy over JC's "alleged" anti-Semitism are still in the main article, I feel the article needs to deal with these other forms of racism and imperialism, like JC's support for the Vietnam War. In fact, in one of his mediocre books, "the [disem]power[ment] of myth", he talks as though he believed his fellow Christians had been successful in eradicating Hebrews (a la Revelations 7:3). JC writes in retrospect: "The Hebrews were absolutely ruthless with respect to their neighbors." (p171) As though Hebrews don't exist to this day! What a schmuck!

On another note, the historian Thomas Cahill offers a criticism of JC in his study on, The Gifts of The Jews. He says that JC is guilty of "forcing the evidince" (i.e., orientalism), and that his reasoning is fallacious, commited to the fallacy of Begging the question. (Cahill, p247) Cahill later says that "The attitude of Joseph Campbell toward Judaism may be found throughout his work." (Cahill, p264)

I will begin changing the main article asap to include JC's advocacy for war and Cahill's logical criticism of JC's fallacious reasoning. Thanks for your time. Be sure to tip your waitress.

Teetotaler 23 September, 2010 —Preceding undated comment added 17:31, 23 September 2010 (UTC).

I think that a discussion of perceived flaws in Campbell's methods and conclusions is a perfectly reasonable section of the article; do recognize that you'll need to maintain a neutral point of view in these as in any edits of any sections that you add to any Wikipedia article. Though I am not sufficiently knowledgeable of Professor Cahill's work to judge its soundness, perhaps others can speak to the thoroughness of his scholarship.

As for his being pro-War... It's funny: his opposition to America's entry into the Second World War is often held up as an indication of his purported Nazi sympathies (that argument holds no water, by the way—the huge majority of Americans of all stripes opposed American participation in what was perceived as a local conflict among participants who were sure to be ungrateful for America's sacrifice—as they had been in 1918). I've been rereading Myths to Live By, written in 1973, during the Vietnam War. In it there is a very interesting article entitled "Mythologies of War and Peace." It discusses a range of religious/mythological attitudes toward both war and peace, from Jainism's ideal of ahimsa to the Gospels advocacy of turning the other cheek on the one hand to the long, long history of warrior mythologies stretching back to prehistory. Here is the concluding paragraph of that article (after discussing militant and pacifist traditions in preliterate cultures, in the Biblical traditions—Christianity, Judaism and Islam—and in all of the great Asian religions):

As far as I know, there is, in addition to these, only one more thought about war and peace to be found among the great traditions, and that is the one first announced by the eminent seventeenth-century Dutch legal philosopher Grotius, in 1625, in his epochal treatise on The Rights of War and Peace. Here, for the first time in the history of mankind, the proposal is offered of a law of nations based on ethical, not jungle principles. In India the governing law of international relations has for centuries been known as the matsya nyaya, “law of the fish,” which is, to wit, that the big ones eat the little ones and the little ones have to be smart. War is the natural duty of princes, and periods of peace are merely interludes, like periods of rest between boxing rounds. Whereas war in Grotius’s view is a breach of the proper civilized norm, which is peace; and its aim should be to produce peace, a peace not enforced by might of arms, but of rational mutual interest. This, in turn, was the ideal that Woodrow Wilson represented when he spoke, at the end of the First World War, of “peace without victory.” And we have the ideal symbolized also in the figure of our American eagle, which is pictured with a cluster of arrows in the talons of its left foot, an olive branch in its right, and its head—in the spirit of Grotius—turned rightward, facing the olive branch. Let us hope, however, in the name of peace, that he keeps those arrowheads over there sharp until neither asceticism nor the power of arms, but an understanding of mutual advantage, will have become for all mankind the guarantee, at long last, of a knowledge of the reign of peace.

That doesn't sound pro-war to me. Rather, it sounds like the statement of thoughtful scholar writing at the height of the Cold War about the history of myths on the subject of war and peace.

He goes on, in the last essay of the book, "No Horizons," to discuss the fact that in an era when the earth can be seen as the small borderless island that it is, distinguishing between us and them and drawing artificial lines—horizons—between the two is no longer possible. He suggests that the great challenge for mythologies of the new millennium—our millennium—are going to be reconciling humanity to this new fact.

Having read just about everything the man wrote and listened to hours of his lectures, I can't think of a time when Campbell advocated warfare. He was certainly avidly anti-Communist—his most passionate statements that I can remember were condemnations of the Chinese invasion of Tibet. And based on clues that he drops—jokes about hippies' academic laziness, for instance—I believe that his personal politics were probably somewhat on the conservative side for his time (though they would be rather centrist by today's standards). I know that he did support the Vietnam War during the late 1960s—though it wasn't a topic about which he spoke or wrote a great deal publicly, and he was once again siding with the majority of American voters at the time in doing so. Campbell was skeptical of progressivism as a religious stance, as of a political one; he advocated his reading of the Buddha's first noble truth in suggesting that we embrace the world as it is, rather than as we would like it to be, and since the world of human cultures has, to this date, always included conflict, he felt that there needed to be a place for that truth in any working mythology: denying it would be like insisting that the earth was created in eight literal days in spite of mountains of science that suggests the contrary. I would therefore be very interested to see what you have seen or read that suggests that he was, in fact, in favor of war.David Kudler (talk) 21:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Also, I will say that, as a Jew myself, I've always found the brutal militarism of the post-Torah sections of the Tanach more than a little off-putting, and so that Professor Campbell makes a distinction between the battle-hungry Hebrews of scripture and the Jews of today really doesn't bother me much. It's the same distinction that makes me prefer the Odyssey to the Iliad--a matter of personal preference, definitely, but one I will admit I strongly hold.David Kudler (talk) 21:42, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

[QUOTE] "I will begin changing the main article asap to include JC's advocacy for war and Cahill's logical criticism of JC's fallacious reasoning."

Perhaps it would help if you would put any proposed changes with their refs here on the talk page for discussion before you change the article. Thanks! Gandydancer (talk) 00:46, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks David and Gandydancer for your very reasonable comments. At the moment I don't have the source handy which accounts for JC's support for the Vietnam War but I will be sure to dig it up and make sure it is a reliable source before changing anything. I am inclined to think however that the reference from his interview/book, "The Power of Myth", is anti-Semitic. He is not referring to the Tanach, which is many many books, but the last book of the Pentateuch, Deuteronomy. While there are wars in the Torah, saying that "the Hebrews" were/are this or that type of people is an (arche)typical example of racism. In so far as all racism is based upon generalization and stereotype, JC's comment is commited to the informal Fallacy of composition, or perhaps the fallacy of Hasty generalization. JC's comment is certainly racialist. But it goes further than that. If someone said that all Irish are (or were) x, then this is a racist/racialist statement. The qualifier here is the totalizing summation: "absolutely ruthless", which is negative. This is racism. As for Cahill's critique of JC, it is not extensive, yet I feel the source is reliable and the criticism is accurate (i.e., its not arbitrary), as Cahill does spend a good amount of the book rebutting the predisposition for mythologistic ontology, which is JC's wont. Teetotaler 23 September, 2010 —Preceding undated comment added 03:35, 24 September 2010 (UTC).

Non-free images

Please read and understand Wikipedia's policy on the use of non-free images. Non-free images are required to have a rationale for every article where they are used. The images I've removed have none for this article. Nor is slapping a tag on them going to help, because nonfree images are also required by policy to be "used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." In other words, the mere fact that the subject of the image is mentioned in this article is not good enough. The photo of Campbell himself is acceptable, as it significantly increases readers' understanding of this article; but the photos of his friends and his books are not (though they are acceptable in the articles specifically on those friends and books). —Angr (talk) 15:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I know next to nothing about Wikipedia policy, so I have no idea whether or not you are just splitting hairs here or have voiced a legitimate concern. At any rate, I do feel that sometimes a person can be right, and yet wrong. Unless there is some sort of serious problem, I very much hope that the images remain in the article.Gandydancer (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I have added rationale statements on the File: pages of the non-free images used in this article. As for using images of subjects other than the main subject of the article... The images add to the identification of the secondary subjects. Many people have seen the book covers and logos without having had the chance to identify them; since this is an article about Joseph Campbell, omission of images of his most influential work and of the logo of the organization set up in his name would seem to be "detrimental... to the readers' understanding of the topic." But that's just me.David Kudler (talk) 21:07, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

As I said, adding rationale statements to the file pages doesn't change the fact that the images have no business in this article. "Adding to the identification of the secondary subjects" does not significantly increase readers' understanding of this article. The image of Ed Ricketts adds nothing to the understanding of this article, and that image still has no rationale for this article (nor could it ever). This article is in violation of Wikipedia policy in its current form. —Angr (talk) 12:44, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Angr is quite correct. Those images are appropriate on the pages about the specific subjects (the book cover on an article about the book, etc.), but use here is quite clearly outside of both #3 and #8 of the nonfree content requirements. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:15, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Restructuring the article

I though it was worth restructuring parts of the article to promote some of Campbell's original ideas on mythology. I will be summarising more in the future so let me know about your ideas... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmick66 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not see your note here and added a section below. Yes, I do have some problems with your edits. For instance, you say "and a big part of their religion focused on atoning themselves from the brutality of the kill". Certainly atonement was part of their religion, but can you source the fact that it was a "big part"?

I am not a Campbell expert, but I don't recall reading the terms Mother/Father Right in his books. I'm well aware of the concept of Mother/Father religions, but the terms are not familiar to me. Could you please discuss? Thanks. Gandydancer (talk) 11:11, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, I am not at all happy with your recent edits! You have added this with the heading Primitive religion:

These where the belief systems of hunting and gathering societies with no permanent settlements or writing. Their religion was animistic, with all of nature seen as being infused with a spirit or divine presence. This included the animals they had to hunt for sustenance, so a big part of their religion focused on atoning themselves from the brutality of this necessary kill. This was done by presenting the animal as a willing participant who gives himself as a sacrifice to the human race in order for them to survive. Stories would sometimes describe how certain rituals such as the buffalo dance would guarantee the animal's rebirth into the world.

If you are going to start doing edits such as this you are going to have to give references because this does not at all match my impression of primitive religion. If you have a reference to show that Campbell believed that atonement was a big part of early religion, it MAY fit into the Campbell article, but my impression of his work is that it was not, in his opinion. Please provide a reference or I will begin to delete some of your edits. Gandydancer (talk) 16:37, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I will add, how can you possibly speak of the buffalo dance as part of primitive religion? The buffalo dance has been preceded by thousands of years of "religion". Gandydancer (talk) 16:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Hello and sorry for the late reply. Campbell has explicitly said that the prime focus of primitive religions is to atone themselves from the kill (although I am not 100% confident on the use of the word 'atone'). I will find the relevant reference shortly and write it. One of the stories he has recited often is The Buffalo's Wife which has exactly that meaning. Relating to the Buffalo dance, Campbell has showed in many of his books that the rituals of animal dancing are the earliest forms of religion though that is known to us and is in deed primitive, not in any derogatory sense of course, but as defining its birth in a particular point in human evolution, that is primitive times (pre-historic). The use of the word is his as he classified these rites in the first book of The Masks of God entitled Primitive Mythology. They have been, like you say, preceded by (tens) of thousands of years of religion, a religion however that, as we can know it by the little cave paintings that are left, seems to have been carried relatively intact. All that relates mainly to Native American and Native Australians mainly. Once again, sorry for not referencing straight away. I will do so within the next few days. Thank you. mmick66 —Preceding undated comment added 12:15, 12 March 2011 (UTC).

Ok, I 've added the references and made some more changes. I just want to mention that in the Moyers Interview Campbell replies to a question on whether the early hunters where troubled by the necessity of the kill and he replies by saying "yes... this is why you have the rites" (which he then explains to be the rites we are talking about here). So that much is clear I guess. I am sure it is mentioned in The Masks of God as well and I might look for a second reference. As to Mother and Father Right, I think you are in the right. I have changed these titles into more generic ones, referring to the historical periods more. As for the consideration of the BUffalo dance in Primitive Mythology, Campbell talks about how these rites (Animal Powers) evolved from Neolithic cave paintings and survived till when he was a child, where Native Americans would still carve poles. So it refers to the time the specific mythology was born and not to any ranking of importance Mmick66 (talk) 10:19, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Your extensive edits, usually without any comments what so ever and seemingly the use of edits rather than using a "sandbox" to make edits, and other problems, have made it difficult for me to do my own edits. I am well-aware of the early hunter's rituals related to the killing of game, my problem was calling it atonement and leaving it at that. I had hoped for a discussion, but once again you did not respond. I am satisfied with your new additions about "atonement" since you now explain Campbell's viewpoint very well. The problem that I now see is the fact that you have placed the more ancient Mother Goddess second to the Father God section. Also, I feel that your Mother Goddess section needs extensive editing - it is jumbled, it is too detailed, and I'm not even certain it is factual. However, with no references, I have no way of figuring it all out. You may argue that the old article as it appeared before your extensive edits did not contain many references either. However, I would argue that the fact that it has stood the test of time with many editors looking at it without argument tends to suggest that it was acceptable, but to make the drastic edits as you have done does require some documentation. Gandydancer (talk) 14:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Here is an example of the difficulties I am finding that make it hard to me to do edits I feel to be needed. You say:

As societies evolve so do their mythological systems change, while maintaining traces of their older forms. In his life time Campbell tried to create a survey of world mythology and many of his books, The Masks of God [1959–1968], Atlas of Mythology and The Power of Myth are structured in a way similar to the historical evolution of mythology. In his work he identified various stages of religious and mythical expression, and although they were presented with a different focus each time, some basic recurring elements are:

How do you figure that The Power of Myth (for instance) is "structured in a way similar to the historical evolution of mythology"? Gandydancer (talk) 15:10, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, we are having a discussion. I replied to all your questions above and will do so for the rest. I always wanted this to be a discussion ;-) As to your worries. The Power of Myth follows the pattern of:

• An introduction to the concepts of mythology according to Campbell in 1.Myth and the Modern World and 2.The Journey Inward,
• The hunting societies' mythologies and animal rites in: 3.The First Storytellers 4.Sacrifice and Bliss which is the same material as the "Primitive Mythology" (Part 1 from Masks of God) and "The way of Animal Powers" in the Atlas of World Mythology. These are earlier than the planting cultures' myths chronologically and they are presented in this way in all of Campbells books. One dates from 200.000 BC the other from 7 - 5.000 BC with the advent of agriculture and should be presented in this order in the article.
• Then we have 6. The Gift of the Goddess which is the found to "Occidental Mythology"'s first part (Part 2 from Masks of God) and in "The Way of Seeded Earth".
• Then 7.Tales of Love and Marriage which talks about the Amor during the Middle Ages concept and how it relates to the matriarchal religions which is the latter part of Occidental Mythology
• Then Powers of Myth goes into Eastern Mythology which I did not cover and we can discuss how. As to the word 'atonement' it is removed after your suggestion.
• Finally we have the Masks of Eternity with the "spiritual potential in all of us" (book editor's comment) which is the Creative Mythology part.

So the structure is there in the books I quoted and has a chronological basis

As for the references. I think my part has many more references than parts like influence where it is said that "Campbell's thinking on universal symbols and stories was deeply influenced by James Frazer (The Golden Bough), Adolf Bastian, and Otto Rank (The Myth of the Birth of the Hero), among others. Anthropologist Leo Frobenius was important to Campbell’s view of cultural history." with no references whatsoever. Please let me know of any further worries Mmick66 (talk) 15:26, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

As for comments I started various chapters below to discuss the edits I made. Sorry if I did not include more comments on the actual edits, will do so in the future. Mmick66 (talk) 15:41, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

If you "always wanted a discussion" you have a strange way of showing it - wait almost 3 weeks, make more extensive edits, and then "discuss". As for the Power of Myth book, yes I know the names of the chapters, what I don't get is how you suggest that the book is "structured in a way similar to the historical evolution of mythology". If that were true the book would start with the ancient cave paintings and the fact that of the oldest art objects that have been found, only the Mother Goddess is represented rather than the first storytellers. Gandydancer (talk) 16:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I apologised for my 3 week absence. The changes I made after that where following your suggestions (all of them I would say) and is by no means indicating that I do not want to discuss since I wrote in the discussion forum. As to the Power of Myth. It does start with the cave paintings, after an introduction to general mythological thinking is made that is. The First Storytellers chapter contains the Hunting Cultures Mythology. Campbell discusses about the Lascaux paintings in the same chapter which are predominantly hunting rituals and date 15.000 BC. Then he goes into Mother Godess stuff 5.000 BC and, then Medieval, Eastern, Contemporary. I know that Female (mother like) figures have also been found in these sites but this is not what Campbell refers as the Goddess which is born in Mesopotamia. Mmick66 (talk) 16:25, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I have looked at your article statement and your above post and am unable to grasp just what you are getting at. If I, with a fair amount of knowledge about Campbell, don't get it I can't imagine that a person not familiar with Campbell's work would. It sound's like original research to me. It is my opinion that in your introduction of the thinking of Campbell you have entered a dangerous area in that you are presenting information to readers that may have never read any of Campbell's works and that you may be distorting his outlook. Take for instance your above statement that the cave painting largely represent a "hunting ritual". This is similar to your statement that (for instance) the Buffalo Dance was for atonement. While your editing suggests to me that you know better, I feel that your presentation of Campbell's thinking in this article may create a false impression of what Campbell tried to get across: The "atonement" ritual was much more than just tit for tat, Jesus died for our sins, etc (and I feel that you later did some great editing to show that). The cave paintings, while perhaps used to introduce boys into the world of The Men, was much more than that. Campbell called the cave a "landscape of the soul". Please be careful and remember the power of what you write here. I regret that others have not joined in this discussion. I realize that you are attempting to present a good article for Campbell, as am I. Gandydancer (talk) 15:43, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you are saying so please suggest a way to fix the inconsistencies you mentioned. If on the other hand you believe that we should revert the article to its older form please say so and I might agree with that as well. What I think we should keep the functions of mythology since he explicitly stated these in more than one occasion, in always the same format. I also believe that removing mentions to Neil Geiman (who read half a Campbell book!) and Dan Brown where correct and should be kept. I also think there should be something on the evolution of myth from hunting to planting cultures. Maybe we should remove what I wrote for the moment and try and come up with a better way of writing it. Mmick66 (talk) 10:50, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, let's see what we can do. When you did your first edits I assumed that David Kudler, who has watched this article for some time, would make suggestions but he has not and I can't understand why because he has kept pretty tight reins on this article. I even put a note on his talk page but he never responded. Your idea was to add some of Campbell's contributions to our understanding of mythology, and I think it's an excellent idea. Should we both take a little time thinking about how to best go about it? I'd like to read some other articles, read this one as it was before your edits and how it now reads, and then maybe have some thoughts on changes. Gandydancer (talk) 11:59, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Sure, I remember which edits I made. I will take out the more controversial "Taxonomy of Myth" and cleanup the Functions of Myth section. I will also leave the removal of Neil Geiman's and Dan Brown references which I think you will agree are unsubstantiated. My initial motive was to add some of the great scientific research material that Campbell uncovered instead of just focusing on the "follow your bliss" concept which is he ended up being known for (that and star wars that is). I think that one of the best approaches to religion is to see it through the scope of evolutionary history, the "why" and "how" the specific forms that thousands consider sacred had evolved. Campbell follows a common pattern in presenting this evolution and I think we can talk about finding an acceptable summary of this work and present it to Wikipedia. Mmick66 (talk) 15:28, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

OK Mmick. Do what seems right. This is actually the last article that I am thinking about right now. Like the rest of us, I have a life going on, and like some wikipedia editors, I am following an article that is moving along much faster than this article. I do agree with what seems to me to be your basic thoughts of presenting Campbell's contributions to the understanding of mythology. As time permits I will comment and I pray for the comments of others. Gandydancer (talk) 16:32, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I see you did delete some material. It seems that we still have the functions of myth that you added. IMO it is an excellent addition and important to the article. And you have expanded the hero's journey section as well, is that correct? What are your thoughts on the segment you deleted? Would you like to bring it back in different form? Gandydancer (talk) 15:13, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

The segment I deleted was the one I had written a few weeks ago, the one which spurred the controversy. It is the historical evolution of Myth (taxonomy as I called it) and I suggest we take some time rewriting. The one I left in is the Functions of Myth which are the four points that Campbell has expressed in this exact form in a few places in his work and I have practically summed what he said. Another section I had deleted was references to Neil Geiman and Dan Brown. Please see below for the separate chapters on this issue. Mmick66 (talk) 10:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I took the courage to post the part of the article as worked by me and Gandydancer. I incorporated nearly all of his suggestions and made sure to enhance the point of the subjugation of the Earth Godess to the Father God of the Indo European conquerors. Please let me know of your opinion.Mmick66 (talk) 16:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Nice job Mmick66! You have made an important contribution to this article. You have a good mind and a good heart and I'd say your own Hero's Journey was a great success! Gandydancer (talk) 19:01, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Hey, thanks! Mmick66 (talk) 06:14, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Edits on Works

I recently merged the section "Work" with "Works" since it was practically identical in content and contained many duplicates. I kept the longer format of the first where present but I think we can consider shortening it since all the books discussed more extensively have their own link. I suggest we move the content there.Mmick66 (talk)

Edits on Lasting Influence

As I was reading this section I realised that some references are very speculative and are closer to what should be considered original research. I do not think that Gaiman's statement of reading half of a Campbell book deserves to be mentioned, especially after the author said that he stopped so that he is not influenced. Same for J. K. Rowling who has not confirmed the influence at all and only speculation exists. The fact that some critics saw a monomyth structure is not a real proof since by its very definition, monomyth is inherent to all stories and so the statement becomes tautological. Dan Brown, in the interview referenced in the article, only said that he was inspired by on Campbell's open mindedness for his main character in The Da Vinci Code, not the structure of the book. He does not make any statement on being influenced from Campbell's monomyth concept ideas and in all honesty he is the most "anti-Campbell" author out there since he interprets myths as literary as possible, actually resisting Cambell's theories. Mmick66 (talk) 10:23, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Relation of Literary texts to the Monomyth concept

By its very definition by Campbell, Monomyth is ever present in stories without that being a conscious effort from the part of the creator. It is a structure that pre exists stories. In that respect I do not think that a speculative connection that has not been confirmed by the author is worth mentioning. In fact, due to its very nature, we could fill the whole of Wikipedia with references to Monomyth since (if Campbell is correct) it will exists everywhere ;-) I believe that only a direct quote or extensive research by a third party should be mentioned Mmick66 (talk) 10:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Segal on purported antisemitism

The section on "Posthumous controversy" says that Robert Segal rebutted the charges of antisemitism in an article titled "Joseph Campbell on Jews and Judaism". I don't have access to that article, so I can't judge whether the characterization of it is correct. However, I am aware of another article by Segal ("Joseph Campbell as Antisemite and Theorist of Myth", Journal of the American Academy of Religion 67.2, pp. 461-67) in which he writes, "I am no defender of Campbell and have myself attacked both his theory of myth and his antisemitism. But I think that these matters are separable and that Friedman is wrong to attribute Campbell's incontestable indifference to the Holocaust primarily to Campbell's theory of myth rather than to Campbell's sheer antisemitism" (p. 461). Looks like Segal sees a bit of antisemitism in Campbell after all.

I'm aware that I'm perfectly free to add the above quote to the article. However, before (or instead of) doing that, I'd really like to get the article's existing statement about Segal cleared up. Can anyone quote for me what exactly Segal said in "Joseph Campbell on Jews and Judaism" and explain how it opposed the charge of antisemitism? --Phatius McBluff (talk) 15:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to let you know, I'm aware of your post. I do remember quite some time ago trying to find info since I found the accusations hard to believe and the follow-up letters seemed pretty convincing to me. On the other hand, after reading your post I did find this [1] when I googled it. But right now, other Wikipedia articles take my time, even more so than I wish... Gandydancer (talk) 01:14, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I would have to say that it is interesting to note that the "Jews and Judaism" article cited on the wikipage is from 1992 and the one Phatius McBluff lists above is from 1999. The difference in time and research may account for a change in opinion for Segal, however, I don't really think that happened here. While I, too, do not have access to the full text of the Religion journal article either, I ran across this abstract of it which makes me wonder if the Segal article really does not counter but might actually support the charge of antisemitism. -- JoannaSerah (talk) 07:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Removed from Serpent (Bible)

this was moved over here in view of the content being way beyond WP:fringe in terms of ANE scholarship, and also no source. If it's relevant to his bio article then someone by all means recycle it. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

He compares Egyptian worship of Set with Yahwism (the academic term for the religion of Judah prior to the Exilic period), adducing as a parallel as the sacrifice of the red heifer (detailed in Plutarch's Isis and Osiris), as well a parallel between Yahweh and the snake-legged Greek Typhon, whose image appears with the name "Ia", "Iah" or "Yah" on many amulets and charms found among the graves of the Maccabees.!--what are Campbell's sources for this?--