Talk:Joseph Nechvatal

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Article improvement[edit]

Wikify

Words linked in the article should only be linked internally to wiki articles. Put two square brackets either end of the word.

Clean up

Avoid bold text apart from where the title is mentioned in the first sentence.

Remove external links to words. See wikify above.

External links can be placed after a sentence as a reference to verify the source of information, but not merely to provide extra information. In the latter case, external links section is available.

Notability

This article at the moment does not assert sufficient notability or prominence of the artist in terms of stated achievement, prizes, reviews, media coverage, shows etc.

"Galleries and museums throughout the world" are claimed, yet there are not specific ones mentioned and there is no verification.

Should notability not be established and verified, the article may be proposed for deletion.

Tyrenius 10:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

please stop interfering[edit]

I have almost finished my father's page when you dare delete it! I am cleaning it as instructed so please let me finish this. I am almost done. He is a very important artist for those who know art.

erica nechvatal [06:02, 29 August 2006‎]

Could you provide some proof for this? The article has been tagged for proposed deletion and lack of importance several times. Many editors have been fairly lenient with this article up to this point. This is not "your" article about your father- this is an encyclopedia entry that anyone is free to edit, and if it doesn't assert importance with verifiable reliable sources, then it will be put up for deletion discussion. You shouldn't even be writing this since it's about your father- there is a very clear conflict of interest, and there are already issues with the neutrality of the article. --Wafulz 12:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You are doing a good job with formatting and so on, but notability needs to be established. Some shows in major galleries would be good, or quotes from magazines or books about his work + reference for them. Please remember to be CIVIL. Tyrenius 14:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Missing info[edit]

Birth date and place. Education details.

Do we take it his PhD was gained in 1997? Where are his shows in museums and galleries round the world as initially stated?

There still doesn't seem much to make him notable. Perhaps some material from the External links could be incorporated, and the link turned into a reference, instead of merely a link.

Tyrenius 09:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Conflict of interest[edit]

Further information: § WP:COI

(reposting comment which deleted other material)

Somebody puts this tag on top of the page I added images to: "The creator of or main contributor to this page may have a conflict of interest with the subject of this article. This page may be deleted unless it uses neutral language and cites independent, reliable, third-party sources that verify all content and show that the subject is notable. Please discuss further on the talk page."

Well, all of that has been resolved long ago. All I did was add 2 images.

Rydernechvatal

This actually never was resolved. Other editors just got preoccupied. The article is still written entirely by family and/or associates- it has nothing to do with the images. --Wafulz 14:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The images illustrate the text and the text has been vetted and verified. If you have noted art historians like Frank Popper pointing to the importance of his work in his book From Technological to Virtual Art, then why would you question his presence in wikipedia?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rydernechvatal (talkcontribs)

Again, I'm not questioning the presence of the article or the images. I'm just flagging it because every contributions has been from family and/or associates, which raises questions about neutrality and possibly (but not definitely) notability. Also, sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~)--Wafulz

OK. I understand. But really all the content at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nechvatal is objective, factual and historically acurate. (~~~~)

I see that this is still at the top of pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nechvatal and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Popper

"The creator of or main contributor to this page may have a conflict of interest with the subject of this article. This page may be deleted unless it uses neutral language and cites independent, reliable, third-party sources that verify all content and show that the subject is notable. Please discuss further on the talk page. This article has been tagged since May 2007."

As I pointed out yesterday, there is only neutral language and the information does cite independent, reliable, third-party sources that verify all content and show that the subject is notable.

Can you please remove the tags or allow me to do so?

Thank you

Rydernechvatal 12:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Photo of the artist[edit]

What exactly is the purpose of the artist's photo? Is it an actual art piece, a self-portrait? If so, is it identified as such? It does not seem to add anything to the article. I have removed it twice and I really don't feel it should be placed back in, at least not without a discussion here. Also, it is helpful if Rydernechvatal would include edit summaries. I posted a note on his/her talk page. This is a matter of respect for other editors so we know edits, changes, deletions and reverts are being made in good faith (and this isn't an accusation of bad faith editing on Rydernechvatal's part, but it is hard to know what his or her intentions are without edit summaries). Thanks. Freshacconci 13:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Photo is of the artist and given to me with his approval. Don't you want his photo?

I do not know what edit summaries are. Sorry.

Rydernechvatal 14:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not an issue of permission. The photo doesn't seem to add anything. It's not a usual element of an article, perhaps with the exception of actors and models. An article on an artist should focus on his work. Edit summaries are the space below the edit box. You indicate what your edit is--it is especially helpful when there are a number of editors working, you can follow what work has been done. It can be a simple note, such as "fixed typo" or "added image." If you look at the history of the Joseph Nechvatal article, you'll see the various edit summaries and get an idea of what has been done so far. Thanks. Freshacconci 14:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:COI[edit]

Further information: § Conflict of interest

This article is not written according to wikipedia's standards. It is written from the point of view of the artist or a close associate ofd the arist. User:Rydernechvatal should refrain from editing the article and put suggested changes on this page, so that other non-partisan editors can decide whether the material should be included. Tyrenius 14:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine. I think it is objective and accurate.
Let me give you the citations you want and I will never touch the page again.
For your first citation:
He has also exhibited in Paris, Cologne, Alalst, Belgium, Lund and Munich and has participated in museum exhibitions around the world.[citation needed] -- see the artists CV here for list of exhibitions : http://www.eyewithwings.net/nechvatal/bio/bio.htm
For your 2nd citation for his work being in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem.[citation needed] see:
http://www.msstate.edu/Fineart_Online/Backissues/Vol_15/faf_v15_n04/text/review03.html
For #3:
Art historian Donald Kuspit has written in his essay The Matrix of Sensations that Nechvatal's digital painting demonstrates that "there are more possibilities of freedom in digital art — that is, the "mental elements" are "free[r] to enter into various combinations" and thus to be manipulated — than in architecture, painting and sculpture."[citation needed]
see: http://www.artnet.com/magazineus/features/kuspit/kuspit8-5-05.asp
which is cited in the reference section
For #4:
Frank Popper states in his book From Technological to Virtual Art that Nechvatal's computer virus work is important to the history of art as it has advanced the use of digital technology and artificial intelligence, while defending and preserving the values of formal painting.[citation needed]
see: Frank Popper From Technological to Virtual Art, MIT Press, pp. 120-123
This is also cited in the reference section
OK?
Thank you.
Rydernechvatal 19:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


++++

OK Well its been around 3 days now with the ugly {{COI|date=June 2007}} sign at the top of the page. The citations are given above. Will someone get rid of the {{COI|date=June 2007}}

Thank you very much

Rydernechvatal

Re. your request about the COI tag on the above, User:Freshacconci has said he will spend some time on the article.[1] However, you are not in a position to make demands as to when things happen. Tyrenius 15:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I will be able to put some time into it later this evening (North American Eastern Time). Real life (i.e. a paying job) is my priority at the moment. Freshacconci 17:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

User rydernechvatal is up to bad behavior on wikipedia. Have a search for "nechvatal" on wikipedia and guess what you'll find? That one "Joseph Nechvatal" is one of the most significant artists of the late 20th century. According to whom? According to rydernechvatal, who has authored and edited dozens and dozens of articles so as to make this dubious point.

The fact that Nechvatal has exhibited internationally puts him in the company of thousands upon thousands of artists. This is not to devalue the artists work in any way, but to suggest that the artists fame on wikipedia is entirely created by himself, his daughter, or his comrades. Said search for "nechvatal" brings up countless links, many of exceedingly questionable merit. I must suggest that rydernechvatal's contributions be reviewed in their entirety. Given the extent of this fraud, I believe that wikipedia may face on ongoing struggle to keep Nechvatal or his cohort from mischief.--Dylanfly 17:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

See my note here. Freshacconci 17:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Well I had the idea that adding content to wiki was what was expected. I fail to understand the "pure genius" comment other an attempt to be nasty. I may add that his 2 essays on Baudrillard were accepted for publication at the International Journal of Baudrillard Studies: http://www.ubishops.ca/baudrillardstudies/ so your testimony to their worthlessness seems silly and rather petty of you. Yes I created this page and 2 more (Frank Popper and Ebon Fisher) but after this experience there will be no more content supplied by me. There are NO claims of "global influence" - only specific facts concerning all three pages I created for you. If you object to my linking his early work to punk - then remove that reference but please stop your pettiness.

Rydernechvatal [07:38, 25 June 2007]

I think you dodge the issues at hand completely. The issue here is the integrity of the online encyclopedia. To place Nechvatal into the field of collage artists, on par with Matisse, is patently disrespectful to this project. There are thousands of artists who do collage, and very few deserve mention on Wikipedia. My brother is an artist but you won't find me putting him all over Wikipedia! He just doesn't have the stature required. That's not a criticism of his work (or of Nechvatal's), it's a statement about what an encyclopedia is for. May I suggest you build Nechvatal a nice MySpace page?

Similarly, to place a 2 page review on Baudrillard alongside the remarks of Susan Sontag is not helpful either. The point of the encyclopedia is not to list every possible thing connected to Baudrillard (in which case Nechvatal's piece would qualify); the point is to discuss and link things which help introduce and illuminate someone at the scale of an encyclopedia. There are thousands of published articles on Baudrillard and very, very few of them have a place on Wikipedia. The same is true of punk visual art and so on and so forth.

You really don't own up to any of this. This is why the charge of pettiness applies well to you: if you truly took responsibility, you would remove your additions and links yourself, rather than ditching this chore to the community. But that's the basic misunderstanding here: Wikipedia is not about individual promotion, by self by fans or by family, it's about a community of people building knowledge in a collaborative way.--Dylanfly 14:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC) [posted by User:Rydernechvatal]

Nechvatal, as a collagist, is discussed in Brandon Taylor's recent book "Collage" published by Thames & Hudson Ltd, 2006, p. 221. Perhaps your brother is in that book as well? Thus I have nothing to own up to.

For the first citation: He has also exhibited in Paris, Cologne, Alalst, Belgium, Lund and Munich and has participated in museum exhibitions around the world.[citation needed] -- see the artists CV here for list of exhibitions : http://www.eyewithwings.net/nechvatal/bio/bio.htm

For your 2nd citation for his work being in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem.[citation needed] see: http://www.msstate.edu/Fineart_Online/Backissues/Vol_15/faf_v15_n04/text/review03.html

For #3: Art historian Donald Kuspit has written in his essay The Matrix of Sensations that Nechvatal's digital painting demonstrates that "there are more possibilities of freedom in digital art — that is, the "mental elements" are "free[r] to enter into various combinations" and thus to be manipulated — than in architecture, painting and sculpture."[citation needed]

see: http://www.artnet.com/magazineus/features/kuspit/kuspit8-5-05.asp which is cited in the reference section

For #4: Frank Popper states in his book From Technological to Virtual Art that Nechvatal's computer virus work is important to the history of art as it has advanced the use of digital technology and artificial intelligence, while defending and preserving the values of formal painting.[citation needed] see: Frank Popper From Technological to Virtual Art, MIT Press, pp. 120-123

This is also cited in the reference section

Does that help?

Rydernechvatal [07:38, 25 June 2007]

Ok It has been weeks now since multiple editors reworked this page (which I started on Joseph Nechvatal). I have asked for the COI tag to be removed by those that placed it there - but there has been no response. So I am going to remove it now.

81.57.34.12 [ Rydernechvatal ] 17:11, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

May I, or will you, remove the COI sign now? This page has been reviewed by numerous editors over the last month.

Rydernechvatal 07:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This page has been reviewed and revised by numerous editors over the last month and I have requested that the editors who put a COI tag on it now remove it - but I have had no response or action taken. So I am removing it now myself.

Rydernechvatal 07:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

No objection to removal of COI, as it is written from WP:NPOV now. However it needs inline citations. See WP:REFB. Tyrenius (talk) 18:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

COI OCT 2012[edit]

I am an objective archivist and also an X-employee of Joseph Nechvatal. I worked for him as an archivist from 2008 - 2011. I have helped develop many wiki pages from time to time on many cultural subjects as my contributions page indicates. See Minóy for example of a recent contribution I developed based on Dr. Nechvatal's historic recollections as a founder of Tellus Audio Cassette Magazine. Of course I had valuable access to Dr. Nechvatal and his records, manuscripts and books, and I know well his history. I am happy to give material when I can about Dr. Nechvatal's work and any other subject I feel confident in contributing to, but I am an objective professional. As I no longer work for him, there is no Wikipedia:Conflict of interest in my opinion. Thank you. Valueyou (talk) 13:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
If nothing has happened in the next 48 hours here I will eliminate the COI banner at the top of the page. I did not create this page, but only update it from time to time as I do on many other pages that are concerned with art and music. Based on my history of varied editing contributions I maintain that I have a positive reputation that goes with quality work. As an X employee of Dr. Nechvatal's I have knowledge of his activities but no obligations to him. Therefore I am able to maintain a neutral point of view towards the subject of the page. Valueyou (talk) 10:57, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
not so sure I buy this "ex-employee" story, compelling evidence suggests that valueyou is a nom de plume for one Joseph James Nechvatal. Semitransgenic talk. 09:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

OK. I heard from my x-assistant Valueyou about what has been going on here and she encouraged me to weight in so I am. But I don't intend to work on Wikipedia directly after learning what a hornets nest that can be. Anyway, if you still would like Valueyou to continue working on Wikipedia, please lay off her. JosephNechvatal (talk) 01:00, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I see no proof that there is no conflict of interest, besides Valueyou's claim that there is none. Paradoxically, Valueyou, while claiming there is no COI, has instead repeatedly claimed to have a connection with Nechvatal, proving there is probably a conflict of interest. For example, Valueyou contacted Nechvatal to have the latter edit multiple Wikipedia pages.
Furthermore, one may cite a published work (which others could access), but one may not site someone's unpublished notes (which no one else has access to). One cannot claim to have no connection with or interest in someone, and also claim to have access to that person's private and personal materials. A simple declaration of interest would be much more convincing than an unsupported denial, and would prove objectivity better than an unsupported claim of objectivity. Hyacinth (talk) 19:42, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the claim that there are two outside testimonials, two anonymous people who are personally involved with Nechvatal and Valueyou only compounds the conflict of interest, assuming that these two people are not Nechvatal or Valueyou. Nechvatal, perhaps you would find Wikipedia being a "hornet's nest" less painful if you didn't beat the nest with a stick. Hyacinth (talk) 19:52, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Hyacinth for the suggestion of declaration of interest. Yes perhaps that is an answer. I was not aware of it. Anyway, all the information on this page is objective and verified. Recent verification can be found on page 199 of the book 100 Ideas that Changed Art by Michael Bird, published by LAURENCE KING PUBLISHING LIMITED, London 2012 - where his painting Orgiastic abattOir : flawless ignudiO (2003) - published with his permission on wikipedia - is presented and discussed around his ideas of the "viractual" (p. 198). The issue of notes does not apply to this page. I would appreciate it if you would remove the COI banner. If it is best, I will not contribute to this page any more. Valueyou (talk) 10:49, 23 December 2012 (UTC)