Talk:Joseph Stalin

Inconsistent birth name transliteration

The opening paragraph uses the Russian transliteration of Stalin's birth name, (Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili,) while the early life section uses the Georgian one (Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili). They both are said to be his birth name, and aren't very clear that they're transliterations of the same name. Possibly mention that the first one is Russian? SomeGuyNamedDavid (talk) 15:13, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

The Russian form of the name appears to be the Eastern Slavic patronymic form, and when this is used, there is a note at the start of the article that this naming convention is being used. But what about the Georgian form I am seeing just above? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 17:29, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

"Joseph"?

That's an English name, isn't it?... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.138.252 (talk) 15:46, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, he was actually from Suffolk on his mother's side.. -- Director (talk) 12:19, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Joseph (Yosef) is a semitic name. It's very common name among jews and arabs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.176.100.251 (talk) 20:12, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Stalin's death mask

This is the Stalin's death mask from Gori museum

Please stop copying other articles into this article

In later years he was refering to himself as "Russian" simply. Several subarticles were made last month to cut down the length of this article, such as:

• Stalin before the Revolution
• Stalin in the Revolution and early wars
• Stalin's rise to power

Wermacht

Correct spelling is Wehrmacht, as per the WP entry.

Culture "Although he was Georgian by birth, Stalin became a Russian nationalist" better put?

Wouldn't "Despite the fact Stalin wasn't Russian by birth, he later became a Russian nationalist" come across as more effective and better way of putting it? People can see he was Georgian at the top anyways.--Wonderman91 (talk) 22:57, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

The contraction does not belong. Stalin's Georgian birth can be re-emphasized here in this statement. However, it serves the reader better if we describe what Russians felt about having a Georgian-born man as leader. Binksternet (talk) 23:23, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't like the "Despite the fact..." construction. How do we know this is true. Note that Hitler wasn't German, Napoleon wasn't French, Hamilton wasn't American, Alexander wasn't Greek, etc., so it's possible that coming from the periphery of a large polity can make one more nationalist, so "Because of the fact..." is possibly true instead. References couldn't much help because this is probably not provable/disprovable so I'd be inclined that we not opine on it. (Also, agree that contractions should be used sparingly.) "Although he was Georgian..." is better, but still implies a normally negative correlation, although less strongly. "Although he was Georgian..." is acceptable I suppose and it should probably be left like that. Herostratus (talk) 04:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I'd prefer the first sentence be simpler yet, like, "Although Georgian by birth, Stalin became...". I don't believe dropping the ancestry is wise, as a reader may not have read the earlier text. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 04:56, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Well Hitler was a German ethnically, he was born Austrian by nationality but they are ethnic Germans, Napoleon was French, Corsica became part of France just before he was born.

Why not put "Despite the fact Stalin was Georgian by birth, he later became a Russian nationalist?"--Wonderman91 (talk) 10:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes and Stalin was born in the Russian Empire so he was as Russian as Napoleon, who was born Napoleone di Buonaparte, was French. The point is, how do you know that it is despite the fact that he was Georgian that he became a Russian nationalist? The point of the examples is that perhaps there are factors at work here -- insecurity leading one to overcompensate for for one's origins, for instance -- such that people born on the borderlands of empires are not less likely but more likely to identify with that empire. I don't know if that's true, but by saying "despite" we are saying that it's not. "Although" also says this, sort of, but less strongly. Why not just leave it as it is ("Although he was Georgian by birth, Stalin became a Russian nationalist"? It seems to be OK as it is, in my opinion. Herostratus (talk) 12:21, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

From what I have read, Stalin was not a Russian "nationalist". He was more an Impearialist. There was little Russianess in him. Bandurist (talk) 12:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Exactly my point where was he a Russian nationalist later on in life? Show me evidence or there is no reason to put it.

Being born in the Russian Empire doesn't make you Russian, Corsica had became French territory.--Wonderman91 (talk) 13:34, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

The first bit changing to "Although Stalin was Georgian by birth" is better than "Although he was Georgian by birth" imo, anyhow where is the evidence he became a Russian nationalist...I don't see any references.--Wonderman91 (talk) 19:52, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

How could he be a Russian nationalist, if he repressed everything Russian, destroyed the priceless monuments of Russian culture, killed brilliant Russian artists, painters, writers, banned old Russian books, selling Russian cultural heritage abroad, erased Russian religion. But when he made ​​a few pro-Russian remarks during the war he suddenly became a "russian nationalist". Here we have a level of hypocrisy reached by western historiography.217.23.69.206 (talk) 12:18, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Batyushka

Remove this noncende at last. Nobody in their mind called him so. Tsars were named so in Middle Ages, but by the early 20th century, this word was used agaist them as a mockery. Read Dostoevsky, Crime and Punishment, where old money-lender calls Raskolnikov so in crony manner. In English, a similar example is "Bro" for Brother. To call Stalin so its like calling Obama Little Nigger or something like this. Stalin was called "Father of nations"( otets narodov) but not creppy "batyuska".217.23.69.206 (talk) 11:41, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Whither withered hand?

In the section Personal life | Appearance

After a carriage accident in his youth, his left arm was shortened and stiffened at the elbow, while his right hand was thinner than his left and frequently hidden.

...attributed to Stalin's Secret War by Nikolai Tolstoy. However, this is curious, one would expect the withered hand on the arm that had been injured and shortened (his left arm), not the hand on the healthy (right) arm.

Then I found that a plaster death mask was taken shortly after Stalin's death and that his hands were also cast. Later, in 1990, bronze casts were taken from the death plaster casts to produce a bronze of his face and of both his hands. This clearly shows a normal left hand and a withered left hand (as would seem a more logical outcome from a trauma to the left arm).

Perhaps someone could find a copy of the book Stalin's Secret War and verify if Tolstoy did, in fact, write that Stalin's right hand was withered ... or his left. If Tolstoy wrote that Stalin's left hand was withered, then clearly there is an error in the text and it should be amended to indicate a withered left hand. If Tolstoy wrote that it was Tolstoy's right hand that was withered when the physical evidence shows a withered left hand, then this discrepancy should be identified. Enquire (talk) 09:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

"Soviet famine in Russia"?

Right at the top of the article it says "catastrophic Soviet famine of 1932–1933, one of the last major famines in Russia." This is very inaccurate. The famine was not just in Russia. You need to add Ukraine or leave it as just Soviet, otherwise it is misleading to a casual reader who only glances at main points of the article and thinks there was only a famine in Russia. Mykyta (talk) 02:09, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Right. Fixed it, by removing the entire second clause (there was famine in Khazakstan etc. also, and this lede is horrendously too long.) BTW you would have been welcome to fix it yourself if so inclined. Herostratus (talk) 04:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Source of 'gardener of human happiness' in 4.2 Cult of personality

According to http://www.cyberussr.com/rus/st-flat.html :

The following are from "Sem'ya i Shkola" ("Family and School"), Dec 1949, pp. 1-5. "Sem'ya i Shkola" is a publication of the Academy of Pedagogical Sciences of the RSFSR.:

velikij sadovnik chelovecheskogo s-chast'ya; great gardener of human happiness; — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.71.190.61 (talk) 08:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

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Inventions Attributed to Soviets

"Various foreign scientific discoveries and inventions (such as the Wright Brothers' airplane) were attributed to Russians in post-war Soviet propaganda. Examples include the boiler, reclaimed by father and son Cherepanovs; the electric light, by Yablochkov and Lodygin; the radio, by Popov; and the airplane, by Mozhaysky."

So many things wrong here: no source given, original research, and that's not even going in to the details about the inventions themselves. For example, Lodygin's light-bulb was created 7 years prior to Edison's; Yablochkov's were illuminating Paris a year before Edison's "invention". Popov's radio demonstration predates Marconi's patent by a year.

All countries try to promote their citizens as the inventors of something, even if they have a slightest claim to it. Mentioning such things in an article about Stalin or even Stalin's Soviet Union is nonsense, as the same can be attributed to any country. In two of the examples I mentioned, it can actually be argued that American, Italian and British propaganda claimed discoveries that were foreign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.216.177 (talk) 19:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)