Talk:Judah the Prince

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Biography (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject Judaism (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Jewish history (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Israel (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Religion (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Untitled[edit]

It's not appropriate to call jewish rabbis by their private names (Judah haNasi or just Judah). The common and right form is saying Rabbi Judah haNasi.

He is referred to as Yehuda Ha-Nasi without the apprended Rabbi in the Jewish world as a matter of course. After all, Nasi is a greater honorific than Rabbi. This isn't just contemporary practice. The honorific rabbi is frequently omitted in rabbinic and Talmudic literature when "Nasi" is used as well. He is also referred to simply as "Rebi" and "Rabbeinu HaKodesh." We need not pile lesser titles onto greater ones. Nasi is more than sufficient.

Jesus?![edit]

I don't know, maybe this is just a really crazy coincidence, but I've seen Jesus' name in the Hebrew (one version) translate as "Yeshua Ha-Nasi (or Ha-Notsri/Ha-Nozri/Ha-Nosri)", so

Yeshua Ha-Nosri

Judah haNasi

Also, "Yeshua" is an old form of "Joshua". If anyone can tell me if I'm really wrong, and it's just a really weird coincidence (probably is, but...), please tell me. I'm at WAS 03:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC).

Jesus is mentioned as Yeshua Ha-Nostri in the surreal novel 'The Master and Margherita' by Mikhail Bulgarkov, written in the 1930s.

There's no connection, coincidental or otherwise. "ha-Nasi" means "the prince", so it could be applied to any number of individuals. Jesus' appellation "ha-Nosri" (really, "ha-Notzri") means simply "from Nazareth". the two phrases don't sound particularly similar in Hebrew . Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 16:18, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Judah = Yehudah

Nasi= President[edit]

Nasi in modern Hebrew (and perhaps in Mishnaic Hebrew, possibly even in Biblical Hebrew) means "President." Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Bulgakov and Margarita[edit]

The name is Mikhail Bulgakov and his great novel is The Master and Margarita. "Bulgarkov" and "Margherita" are misspellings. Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Nas\Notsri[edit]

Nasi means, leader or prince and Notsri means chirstian, in Hebrew. Im not would sure what your aims are with this comparison. Of these two very differnet historical figures, who lived one hundred years apart from one another. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.114.91.226 (talk) 08:52, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

As a native speaker of Hebrew, I'm sure that Nasi means "leader" in Mishnaic and Biblical Hebrew and so does sometimes in modern Hebrew. But in modern Hebrew it means most of the times "president" (and not "prince" in old and modern Hebrew; Nasikh means prince).

Nosri (pronounced in Hebrew and should be transliterated "Notsri") means in modern Hebrew "christian" because Jesus was called that, but the original meaning in his time's Hebrew was "from Nazareth". מתיא (talk) 19:35, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:09, 14 October 2011 (UTC)



Judah ha-NasiJudah the Prince — per MOS - english usage. Chesdovi (talk) 16:55, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources

. Chesdovi (talk) 18:07, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose. Is it "most common", or merely "most anglicized"? We use Shimon bar Yochai, not Simon son of Yochai; we use Maimonides, not Moses son of Maimon, or even Rabbi Mosheh ben Maimon, because it is what English speakers usually use, although it is neither English nor Hebrew, but Greek. Searches suggest that they are about equally frequent in the whole corpus of English, and my recollection of reliable sources is that Judah ha-Nasi is the standard form. Evidence welcome. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:11, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Most other "Shimons" are currently "Simeon". Bar/ben is used instead of "son" becuase that's common usage. I can tell you that English Jewish speakers are more likely to use "Yehudah ha-nasi", not "Judah". Chesdovi (talk) 17:14, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Why then are you not proposing moving it to Yehudah ha-nasi? DMacks (talk) 09:33, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
  • Weak Support, - I appreciate Chesdovi listing this, and I'm strongly in favour of WP:EN, but am constrained in pushing it too far here as this is a personal name, not a bland noun like the move I have proposed from covenant of Kehuna to priestly covenant. Taking WP:RS first, it's very finely balanced. Google books isn't as good a benchmark as JSTOR or one of the Athens searches but I don't have Athens access at the moment, and Google books, if read with one eyebrow raised, is often good enough.
∞ Judah the Prince 8,680 including Naomi E. Pasachoff, Robert J. Littman - 2005 A concise history of the Jewish people p99, and most of the texts of Jacob Neusner. I'm guessing most of these hits refer to the 1st Judah the Prince more than later Judah ha-Nasi II III IV.
∞ Judah the Nasi 307 - surprisingly low
∞ Judah ben Simeon ben Gamaliel - only 2, not surprising, as a bit of a mouthful
∞ Judah haNasi 2,560 - some overlap with below, due to Google search oddities
∞ Judah ha-Nasi 8,220 - somewhat inflated by quotations of Primary Sources of course, in the same books some of them also have "Judah the Prince". But most don't, per The New Jewish encyclopedia p251 1976
∞ And The Cambridge History of Judaism seems to yo-yo between the "ha Nasi" and "the Prince" in different volumes slightly more to Prince, but also Nasi eg.: The late Roman-Rabbinic period p49 William David Davies, Louis Finkelstein, Steven T. Katz - 2006 "And rabbinic literature has in fact little to say about patriarchs before Rabbi Judah Ha-Nasi, who probably lived around 200"
∞ There's also the issue that while "nasi" did mean prince, it's one of those words (like kohen) where the meaning travelled a little, to the point where nasi was used for presidents of the Sanhedrin, and other bodies in modern Israel. We wouldn't amglicize Rabbi Judah Ha-Cohen, the author of Sefer Ha-Dinim, to "Judah the Priest" because beyond Tabernacle-Second Temple context the meaning of kohen/priest has shifted. On the other hand Judah the Prince does have a real easy-to-understand ring to it which is in keeping with his friendship with Antoninus and literally "princely" status. So if there was ever a case for "ha Nasi" being "the Prince", this would be it... In ictu oculi (talk) 13:52, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Any additional comments:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The page/wikipedia would benefit from using a single name[edit]

Other pages use Judah HaNasi. This one should adopt a consistent name and, if different from the others, the others should also be changed. (I'm not suggesting that alternative names should not be referenced, only that the main body should use one name.) Jsolinsky (talk) 17:57, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I know, I know...I don't have time either, but--
Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.
The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). 71.87.23.22 (talk) 17:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)