Talk:Julian calendar

What's the difference?

I just read a lot of this article but I still don't understand what the difference is between the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar. It sounds like they have the same number of days, the same number of months, the same names for the months and even the same arrangement for leap years. What's actually different? It would be best if this could be clearly summarised in the introduction to the article. (Huey45 (talk) 14:01, 2 July 2010 (UTC))

The only difference is that three leap days are omitted every 400 years in the Gregorian calendar. This is explained in the introduction to the Gregorian calendar article, which is the more appropriate place. This introduction does link to that article in the second paragraph. --Chris Bennett (talk) 14:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Since we keep getting complaints about this (see the last one today), perhaps we need a differentiation in both articles. I'll put a bit in, if you don't mind. SBHarris 23:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

As a pedantic point, let me say that another difference between the two calendars is the way that the date of Easter is calculated, i.e., the Computus. Rwflammang (talk) 20:22, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Fence post error?

IanOfNorwich suggests that the triennial leap year cycle described by Macrobius is an example of a fence post error. I haven't come across the term before, but I don't think this is correct, given the description pointed to. In essence, the distance between the fence posts was misunderstood, not the number of fence posts or the number of intervals between them.

What is an example of a fence post error, as described, is the inference that people draw from Macrobius' statement that the triennial cycle lasted for 36 years. Scaliger inferred 12 leap years from this, but Mommsen inferred 13. One of these numbers is due to a fence post error.

--Chris Bennett (talk) 20:26, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, it probably depends on how you view it. As I understand it, initially, a leap year was held every 3 years rather than 4, as had been intended and that this was due to a misunderstanding between the number of years between leap years (3) and the period of leap years (4). In which case by analogy 3 is the number of fence panels and 4 the number of fence posts.

The example you cite is indeed a good example of a fence post error (and Mommsen's inference almost certainly the correct one). I see how you could choose to exclude from the definition of a fence post error situations where the panel width is 1 but I see no reason to do so. In any case it's certainly not content essential to the article, but I thought an interesting link between normally unconnected topics. IanOfNorwich (talk) 17:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible to simplify the text?

This has to be one of the most difficult articles I've read on Wikipedia. Is there any way to simplify it through a summary? Or a series of short summaries, one in each section? The contributors evidently know a great deal about this subject but like the poster above, I have read this article a couple times and having only a passing interest in the topic, my curiosity is not satisfied as there is too much detail to read through.

I would suggest that this article is uninviting to the average Wikipedia user and that it would benefit from a structural edit to make it more approachable.

For example, starting with a simple comparison of the Julian calendar and the Gregorian calendar most (English-speaking) users will be familiar with would help to set the scene. Then some history about its development and use would give the historical context. Finally, the bulk of the article could address the detail of the Julian calendar. Casual viewers would then have a quick high-level view of the topic, while those in need of detail can still obtain what they seek. Nick in syd (talk) 22:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I've added a bit to the intro. Is this okay, now? SBHarris 00:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I still feel it could do with simplifying. Some of the sentences have many sub-clauses, and would be more approachable if they were split into discrete sentences. For example:

The Julian calendar was introduced by Julius Caesar in 46 BC as a reform of the Roman calendar. It came into force in 45 BC (709 ab urbe condita). It was chosen after consultation with the astronomer Sosigenes of Alexandria and was probably designed to approximate the tropical year (known at least since Hipparchus).

The Julian calendar has a regular year of 365 days divided into 12 months with a leap day added to February every four years. The Julian year is, therefore, on average 365.25 days long.

The more modern Gregorian calendar eventually superseded the Julian calendar: a tropical year (or solar year), which determines the cycle of seasons, is actually about 11 minutes shorter than 365.25 days. These extra 11 minutes per year in the Julian calendar caused it to gain about three days every four centuries when compared to the observed equinox times and the seasons. In the Gregorian calendar system, first proposed in the 16th century, this problem was dealt with by dropping some calendar days in order to realign the calendar and the equinox times. Consequently, the Gregorian calendar drops three leap year days across every four centuries. See Gregorian calendar for the details of how this is now done.

Does this example show what I mean? Nick in syd (talk) 09:42, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Suits me. I've just used your text for the first part of the lede, with links added. I left the last two paragraphs in, since if the reader is satisfied at the end of your lede, he/she can just stop. And the present lede is not too long. So there we are. Go out and work on more ledes: you're an excellent minimalist writer, and this project doesn't have enough people like you. SBHarris 22:26, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Error in Dating

The article seems to make the claim that Julius Caesar introduced the Julian calendar one year before it was put into force. The Gregorian calendar article says that the Julian calendar was introduced and put into force in the same year. Could somebody correct this (as the article is locked)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.151.63.144 (talk) 03:30, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

I can't find the bit in the Gregorian calendar article that you're referring to. Could you be more specific? SBHarris 04:30, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

It was in Gregorian calendar#Beginning of the year. I removed "introduced" from both articles as imprecise and misleading, and replaced it with "began in 45 BC", although even that is somewhat misleading because the quadrennial Julian calendar did not begin until AD 4 or 8 after 45 years or so of erroneous leap years. — Joe Kress (talk) 09:56, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

To me, it referred to Caesar's decree which "introduced" the reform in 46, and the use of the word was incorrect in the Gregorian calendar article. And actually the first step in the reform -- the two extraordinary intercalary months between November and December which realigned the year -- did take place in 46. Not a big deal -- it's only the lede, and the calendar itself did not begin operating till 45 (even if it was operated incorrectly at first). --Chris Bennett (talk) 19:37, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Edits by Xact

User:Xact made some edits which contain at least one controversial point, some unclear wording, and some poor word choices or grammar. Two point in particular:

1. The phrase "during reign of Pope Gregory XIII" was added; if this is relevant, it would be better to state that Gregory XIII ordered the use of the calendar by those subject to him, rather than just say it was proposed during his regn.
2. "The Holy See of the Roman Catholic Church, which holds the key to the calendar" is debatable. If some other calendar were adopted by most of the civil authorities, it is not at all clear the Holy See could maintain the use of the Gregorian calendar. Conversely, if the Holy See were to make a unilateral change to the calendar, it is highly unlikely the new version would attain the level of acceptance that the Gregorian calendar has. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:07, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

In need of Rewrite

This article is incomprehensible enough to deserve a reconsideration of how it's structured.

By way of my reading level, I'm degreed in Physics, studied plenty of history, worked as an engineer. I can't find the meat of the subject in this article.

Without delving too deeply, it seems the problem is in not explaining how the Julian calendar actually worked (which is what I wanted to know). History overwhelms the article and yet the history is not followable without a prior understanding of the main points of how the calendar works.

My 2 cents. --Ej0c (talk) 13:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

So go for it! --Chris Bennett (talk) 15:50, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Damienpryan1, 19 August 2011

"The Julian months were formed by adding ten days to a regular pre-Julian Roman year of 355 days, creating a regular Julian year of 365 days: Two extra days were added to Ianuarius,[3] Sextilis (Augustus) and December, and one extra day was added to Aprilis, Iunius, September and November, setting the lengths of the months to the values they still hold today."

Technically speaking the abvoe isn't true as later on Augustus Caesar took a day from Feburary and added it to Augustus. Also Augustus wouldn't have been knonw by that name yet.

Damienpryan1 (talk) 05:34, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Topher385 (talk) 09:58, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I think he's complaining about the "setting the lengths of the months to the values they still hold today.", when the short length of February hasn't (obviously) been explained by the previous parts of the sentence. However, February has always had 28 days since long before Julius, and Octavian had nothing to do with that. So this needs to be noted (see the Julian calendar#Debunked theory on month lengths in this very article). Yes, the month Sextilis wasn't named Augustus (after Augustus) until 8 B.C., but Augustus didn't change its length, which had been 31 days since Julius Caesar and stayed that length. I've added a "see below" bit to the above sentence, but we could also move the "length myth debunk" section to just after this one, if it seems that more readers will have the same problem as the one above. SBHarris 22:18, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not objecting to this but it does seem to me that the before and after 45 BC columns of the "Table of Months" immediately after the introduction illustrate the point rather clearly. Maybe this description should be moved from its currently location to immediately before or after the table, since it is the core of the reform? --Chris Bennett (talk) 01:41, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 21 December 2011

I want to add an external link to a menu page that is located at my home page. The links of the menu page are linking to web pages with weekday calculations in the Julian Calendar.

URL to my menu page: http://www.g-holbeck.com/english/tid/veckodagar

Link label: Calculation of weekday in the Julian Calender

Sources: Swedish book with title "Almanacka foer 500 aar" by Karl-Gustav Segland. Released in year 1984. Eilert Backman's Website, URL = http://web.comhem.se/~u12597836/index.htm

Göran Holbeck (talk) 15:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Not done:

There are at least three problems with this request:

(1) The objections that Qwyrxian raised when you tried to add the same link to Week in November 2010 still apply, and they are equally valid here and in 45 BC.

(2) The description of years in your second Julian table is wrong. 45 BC is not the same year as -45. See Astronomical year numbering. If your calculator is based on this assumption the results cannot be correct for BC years.

(3) This table assumes that one particular model of the triennial leap year cycle is correct, but there are others in the literature. See the discussion in this article in the section Leap year error

For these reasons I am also reverting the link you added to the same pages in 45 BC. --Chris Bennett (talk) 23:03, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request for "Motivation"

The last sentence references Pliny the Elder when claiming that the equinoxes and solstices were set to viii kal. of their respective months. However, the cited text of The Natural History only gives a calendar date for the winter solstice, December 25. Rather, extrapolating from the number of days he claims pass between these events, the summer solstice and autumnal equinox would instead be (roughly) June 27 and September 28, respectively. The March 25 date for the vernal equinox would be the same, but is not mentioned explicitly.

With that being said, Samuel Butcher's The Ecclesiastical Calendar (available through Google Books) also gives the viii kal. dates on page 16, but it is unclear where the author gets this information. (The book's primary source is the writings of Clavius, but I can't read Latin to verify.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.221.191.200 (talk) 15:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done  --Chris Bennett (talk) 21:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)