Talk:Julius Caesar/Resolved and insignificant sections

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Pompeia

I have corrected the statement that Pompeia was a relative of Pompey the Great. Her father was a Pompey, of course, but from the family of Pompeius Rufus. Pompey´s family was a bit obscure until is life. And she was a grandaughter of Sulla (Suetonius, for instance) Muriel Gottrop

And another thing: who ever wrote this article did a very nice work . Congratulations! User:MurielGottrop

Suetonius and Plutarch's biographies of Caesar

After a re-reading of Suetonius and Plutarch's biographies of Caesar, I noted a few flaws on the former version of this article and I decided to expand and rewrite it. Some notes on the revision:

The First Triumvirate was not a government, but an informal alliance: its comparison with the second triumvirate is not formal since this one had legal implications and Caesar's triumvirate didn't. It was only a political alliance and did not imperilled the Republic. In 59 BC, Caesar was still a believer in the system.
Brutus was not Caesar's adopted son. If so, he would not be known as Brutus, but as Gaius Julius Caesar Junianus. The (doubtful) last words of Caesar "You too my son?" must be interpreted as a figure of speech. "My son" is an expression often directed at persons that are not biological or adopted siblings. Caesar had known Brutus since his birth, was intimate of his mother and taught him rhetoric. It is only natural that he referred to him as "my son".
I kept the second paragraph of the chapter The Name Caesar, but I have strong reservations about this…
Caesar did not receive the title Imperator: this was given to Augustus Caesar in 27 BC. As far as I understand he died a Republican, without having a glimpse of the end of the Republic. The Empire is Augustus doing.

I also removed the excessive (and a bit annoying) linking of some words. Muriel 10:15, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Caesar did receive the title imperator, as did all triumphators (including Marius, Sulla, Metellus Pius, Pompey, and Cicero). He simply did not use it the way that Caesar Augustus did; Plutarch describes Caesar as wearing triumphal regalia during the Lupercal festival, despite not conducting a triumph. -- User:Publius

List of Battles & Chronology?

Is there any reason to have a List of Battles & a Chronology of J.C.'s life in this article? Both of these ought to be mentioned in the text body. (And I'm unaware of any other biography with these kinds of helps.) I believe they are unnecessary, & should be removed. -- llywrch 20:39, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC) (awaiting refutal)

I can go either way. Chronological stuff could go to year articles, but he is by far the #1-most-interesting Roman for the general public, and a chronology is a useful way to summarize a moderately complicated text for the impatient reader. The list of battles is most usefully subsumed in timeline in any case. Stan 20:52, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I think a chronology is very neat for this and any biography. The list of battles can go if the rest of the world like, but i added it to give some detail to the section Caesar as a military commander. Muriel Victoria 13:21, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Precognition?

I remember reading that Caesar had a certain sense for the future, a sort of precognition. Could anyone tell me if and where in classical sources references are made to this? I searched the article, but wasn't surprised not to find it as it hasn't been proven. Thank you. -- Redge 14:49, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This was probably said because before he went and met his death numerous omens occurred for lack of a better word and it is said that Julius himself had a dream about his death. Whether this was actually true or not has not been proven. It is most likely have been the result of attempts to romanticise him.


"kai su, teknon" vs "Et tu, Brute" vs garbage

His last words have been various [sic] reported as:

  • Kai su, teknon? (Gr., "And you, son?")

Suetonius reports that Ceasar said (in Greek) "kai su, teknon?" UNFORTUNATELY...someone decided, in their great wisdom, that it would be best to delete the precise reference to Suetonius, which I included originally. Furthermore, "teknon" more properly means "that which is born, a child." For the Latinists here, just don't go thinking "teknon" = "filius," because it doesn't.

Tu quoque, Brute, fili mi! (Lat., "You too, Brutus, my son!")

I challenge you to provide a reference for this. If you want to argue that Suetonius put Greek into Caesar's mouth, I'd be happy to look at any evidence (i.e., references to texts and/or scholarly works) you might have.

Et tu, Brute? (Lat., "And you, (my son) Brutus?" - it can be argued that "my son" is implied by the case used)

What the hell?? First of all, this quotation comes from S-H-A-K-E-S-P-E-A-R-E...only from Shakespeare. Secondly, the case used is the vocative. Q: How does this imply "my son??" A: It doesn't. The context, together with a certain little itty-bitty passage, in Greek, from Suetonius gives us the "my son" bit.

Looks like someone decided to delete all of Caesar's reported dying words except for the quote from Shakespeare's play. What's the reason for that?

You're right, unsigned pal. The first step is to restore the Suetonius quote and ref. Bill 23:41, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

--Don't some sources also state that Caesar said nothing before he died? It makes more sense that if he were stabbed several times he would be more likely to be in shock instead of saying something as overdramatic as "You too, Brutus, my son!".

You are correct--in fact, one such account's text is included in the article. I personally find this much more credible, as having been stabbed 20-some times, you're going to be in no condition to toss off famous last words. ADB

Another interesting small point:


In Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, the dictator directed his famous last words at Brutus: Tu quoque, Brute, fili mi ("You, too, Brutus, my son?") or Et tu, Brute ("And [even] you, Brutus?").

How can it be both? Even if this was not the intended meaning, then at best this sentance is poorly worded. Besides, shakespeare used 'Et tu, Brute'. The 'Tu quoque, mi fili' phrase is what is commonly believed to be his actual last words, whether he said it in Latin, or the similar phrase in Greek.Ironlion45

Small niggle

Just curious why Atlantic Ocean is written "Oceanus Atlanticus"? Obviously it is the contemporary spelling, but the rest of the article in in English, right? pomegranate 00:34, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

It is put as ocean atlanticus because that is the latin way of saying it.--Alexstorer 22:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

???

Anyone else notice "hello there alex hi dennis" at the very beginning of the Early Life section? It doesn't appear if you try to edit the page. Very weird.

This has been fixed.--211.28.125.161 11:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Origin of pictures near top?

The author of the painting and bust should be mentioned, and when were they produced. Deus Ex 21:22, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Caesar learning hebrew?

Dear Muriel Gottrop, I would like to know what your source is for writing "where he (=Caesar) apparently learned to speak several languages, including Hebrew and Gallic dialects." Tommie Hendriks apjhendriks@hotmail.com

I would guess he learned Hebrew in either the East or in the Subura, and Gallic while in Gaul or Hispania. Kuralyov 20:58, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Suetonius (life of the Caesars), Plutarch (Caesar) and JC (Commentaries on the Gallic Wars) all these sources mention his ability for languages. I dont know the paragraphs by memory. muriel@pt 10:26, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As for the Gallic dialects: It is said that at least one of Caesar's immediate servants was a Gallic slave. But what is the source, where is it written that he did learn Gallic from him? Gallic slaves spoke Latin in Rome. And in Gaul Caesar used interpreters, even when he wished absolute privacy. De Bello Gallico 1.19: itaque priusquam quicquam conaretur, Diviciacum ad se vocari iubet et cotidianis interpretibus remotis per C. Valerium Troucillum, principem Galliae provinciae, familiarem suum, cui summam omnium rerum fidem habebat, cum eo conloquitur; –Therefore, before he attempted anything, he orders Diviciacus to be summoned to him, and, when the ordinary interpreters had been withdrawn, converses with him through Caius Valerius Troucillus, chief of the province of Gaul, an intimate friend of his, in whom he reposed the highest confidence in every thing;
As for Hebrew is there any evidence? And from whom should Caesar have learnt Hebrew in his youth, in the Suburra? The Jews in Rome spoke Greek, if they did not speak Latin. And why should he? In order to read the Books of the Jews? But they were translated into Greek (Septuaginta: LXX) since the third century BC.
Either there is a source, or this is a supposition. But one can suppose false things. It would be more plausible to suppose that Caesar learnt Etruscan. From Claudius it is known that he learnt it. The disciplina etrusca (auspicina, haruspicina, etc.) constituted an important part of the Roman Religion. So Caesar, being Pontifex Maximus, had to know it too. But Caesar learning Hebrew? Is this written somewhere else than in the Wikipedia? If it is the case, it would be very interesting to know the sources. So, please, look up, and give us that important information. If not, please delete that passage:
"where he apparently learned to speak several languages, including Hebrew and Gallic dialects." – or at least this: "including Hebrew and Gallic dialects."
Marc.
––
Thank you for having correct that error. But it is still included in the translations made from the English version, e.g. in the Latin one:
http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar
"In iuvente domi verecunda habitavit et linguas Hebraica Gallicaque loqui didicit."
please delete: "et linguas Hebraica Gallicaque loqui didicit" (which is also grammatically incorrect) – or change it into: "et utramque linguam didicit".
By the way: "iuvente" should be a typo for "iuventute".
Marc

Hmmm, I can only say that this case shows that Wiki is not perfect and first-hand material (written accounts, books) should always be mentioned to back-check every claim made. Flamarande 11:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

C. , hebrew

There is no scholarly record that C. "learned languages" in his youth. See Suet. , Plut. , or DBG, DBC. More recently, Meier, Gelzer, etc. Even more extravagant was the allegation that he learned (!?) "Hebrew" . Even the jewish diaspora didn´t speak it any longer, Aramaic having largely superseded it (Flavius Josephus writes in Aramaic). This reveals a profound lack of understanding and sensibility for the cultural and the sociological constraints on the education system in classical Rome. Unfortunately this historical "urban legend" took its course and if you google C., you´ll come up up with innummerable hits from previous versions. This is unfortunate. A serious attitude a scrupulous and thourough examination of the sources and an understanding of the cultural and sociological framework where historical "events" take place are an absolute necessity to avoid falling in this kind of traps.


Comparative size of Invasion fleets

In the section on Ceasars invasion of Britain it was stated that his amphibious assult on Britan was the largest the world had known up untill D-day. In fact Kubali khan raised two fleets which were larger to invade the Japaneses Home islands. They were the largest invasion fleet the world had seen between ceasar's and D-day. I am not surprised that people would not know this because western history books usually mention the Mongol empire only as a catalyst for the creation of Russia. I'll even go as far ast to make the statement that many do not realize that the Mongols had the largest contiguous land empire ever. Roughtly 2 1/2 roman empires could fit in side what they had. --Hfarmer 01:58, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


Important to note that to my knowledge the Mongol invasion of Japan was repulsed and deemed failure. Perhaps I should've been more clear in my original wording on the original article http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/invasion-of-britain.php. (see related copyvio below)

--Chris Heaton 10/18/05


Copyvio

Beginning with 'Cursus Honorum' 2nd to last and last paragraphs are direct copies from: http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/clodius-scandal.php

The 'First Triumvirate section is largely verbatim (with some deletion and re-arranging) from: http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/first-triumvirate.php

'Gallic Wars' is taken in part from: http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/gallic-wars.php http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/helvetii.php http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/gaul-conquest.php

'Germania, Britain, and Vercingetorix' is taken in part from: http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/political-opposition.php http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/crossing-the-rhine.php http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/vercingetorix.php

'Civil Wars' in part from: http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/crossing-the-rubicon.php http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/battle-of-pharsalus.php

'Caesar in the East' in part from: http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/battle-of-pharsalus.php http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/caesar-in-egypt.php

'End of the Civil War' in part from: http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/veni-vidi-vici.php http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/battle-of-munda.php

'After the Civil War' in part from: http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/battle-of-munda.php http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/caesar-the-god.php http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/caesar-the-king.php

'Assassination' in part from: http://www.unrv.com/fall-republic/caesar-the-king.php

Not all material is verbatim copy, as some has been edited and some has certainly been written by other authors.

--Chris Heaton, www.unrv.com

The last edit not containing my copywritten material seems to be from: 22:05, 26 May 2005 CryptoDerk m (revert to last good version)

While Chris was certainly correct in removing his copyrighted material (and deserves an apology), his revert to 26 May 2005 was a bit agressive (if understandable). I will attempt, in steps, to restore the updates to the non-copyright material that occurred between 26 May and now. However, I'm sure to miss some, so please review...Mjchonoles 16:01, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Apologies to those authors/editors whose work I may have damaged with my revert. However, considering the hundreds of edits, additions, etc. that have been made since my material was added without permission, I was a bit limited in choice. As an aside, I have only started reviewing wiki articles like this because of other copyright issues. What would have been the best course of action in this case... a complete revert prior to the inclusion of my material as I did, or simply editing out that material and leaving the article as a choppy mess? At least in that regard the edits to material that is not my own would not have been adversly effected, but obviously the article would need to be completely re-written? --Chris Heaton

Proconsul?

By 61 BC, Caesar was assigned the Proconsular governorship of further Hispania, the province in which he had served as quaestor.

I'm no expert, but shouldn't this be proPRAETORIAN governorship? Caesar didn't hold the consulship until 59, but was praetor in 63. It strikes me as odd, then, that he would have proconsular imperium in 61 (since I am not aware of any extraordinary grants of power by the Senate to Caesar at this time).

-James

Ill look into this, but I know there were instances when different grades of imperium were granted to men who had not had the office commensurate with the imperium. offhand I cannot recall any specific instances, but I will look this up as well as Caesar's legal status as governor of Spain. He may have needed proconsular status in Spain for one reason or another... --Cjcaesar 15:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I looked in Meier, Oxford Classical Dictionary, and in the Dictionary of Roman Law and could find no mentions of Caesar being made Proconsul. Therefore, I must assume he was Propraetor when he went to Spain.

eyewitness account?

According to Cicero, Bibulus, and many other enemies of Caesar, as well as many neutral observers, including an eyewitness who gave an account to the historian Suetonius,

Who's the eyewitness? Is it the account of Gaius Memmius that Suetonius quotes? He (along with anyone else who might have witnessed events during Caesar's time in Bithynia) died long before Suetonius was born, so the fact that a written source was used should be made clear.

Also, who says Memmius was an eyewitness? He seems to have been of the same generation as Caesar, which would mean he might well have been present in Bithnyia at the appropriate time, but the only fact suggesting that he saw anything himself is Suetonius's statement that he named several Roman merchants who were present as well—which is suggestive, but hardly conclusive. —Charles P. (Mirv) 07:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Since 144.35.254.5 (talk • contribs) has seen fit to revert my edits (and some others besides) without comment, I will repeat and expand the explanations I already gave in the edit summaries, so s/he may respond properly to any with which s/he takes issue.

  • [1] suetonius ref is wrong; some issue with the text based on it too, see talk.

The reference to Suetonius 1.65–69 is wrong. Period. Chapter divisions for classical works have been standardized for a long time; chapters 65–69 cover Caesar as a military commander. No mention is made of King Nicomedes. Why was this reverted?

  • [2] these "many neutral observers" are pure fancy; suetonius quotes, almost without exception, from known enemies of caesar. also he did deny the accusations, vehemently.

Who are the "many neutral observers"? Suetonius, our main source for this, gives eight contemporaries of Caesar who comment on this matter:

  1. Licinius Macer Calvus, the poet; I don't know, and I don't think anyone knows, whether he was a friend or enemy of Caesar.
  2. Publius Cornelius Dolabella, Cicero's son-in-law; alternately a friend and a rival.
  3. Gaius Scribonius Curio, the elder; a rival.
  4. Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus, a bitter rival.
  5. One Octavius, exactly which is obscure; can't say one way or another, but Suetonius describes him as "a man whose disordered mind made him somewhat free with his tongue".
  6. Gaius Memmius, the poet and politician; mostly a rival.
  7. Cicero. No comment necessary.
  8. Caesar's soldiers, with whom he was generally on good terms; their commentary is presented as an example of "the bantering songs which are usually sung by those who followed the chariot" in a triumph.

Five of these are Caesar's rivals; of the remaining two, one is of doubtful mental stability, according to our source. These "many neutral observers" are not to be found in Suetonius, at least. Why was this reverted?

For explanation of my change from "an eyewitness who gave an account to the historian Suetonius" to "Gaius Memmius (whose account may be from firsthand knowledge)", I refer you to my statements above, timestamped 07:23, 8 November 2005 (UTC). Why was this reverted?

I changed "There is no record of Caesar himself ever addressing the accusations" to "Caesar himself, according to Cassius Dio, denied the accusations under oath", adding a reference to the relevant chapter of Dio. The former statement is false. The latter statement is correct. Why was this reverted?

  • [3] rephrase slightly, and no, suetonius does not describe this as true; he makes no comment either way

I changed "According to Cicero [. . .] and many other enemies of Caesar" to "According to Cicero [. . .] and others (mainly Caesar's enemies)" because I thought this a better reflection of the sources, as they are laid out above. Three of the eight sources are named; describing the remaining five as "many" others is an exaggeration. Five of the eight sources are Caesar's enemies; I believe "mainly Caesar's enemies" is a fair description of this. Why was this reverted?

From the sentence "Suetonius, while saying that Caesar's affair with Nicomedes is true, described Antony's accusation of an affair with Octavian as political slander", I removed the incorrect statement that Suetonius says that Caesar's affair with Nicomedes was fact. Suetonius, as he often does, takes no firm position on the truth or falsehood of the stories; he simply reports them with minimal commentary. Why was this reverted?

  • [4] comment out references that cannot be to any standard edition of suetonius

Last, I commented out references to Suetonius 1:229, 233 because no standard edition of Suetonius divides the first book into anywhere near 233 chapters. I was unable to discern the author's intent, but hoped someone else might be able to puzzle it out. The references, as they stood, were useless and misleading besides. Why was this reverted?

Charles P. (Mirv) 00:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

The Consulship (of) "Julius and Caesar"

The above phrase is mentioned twice (search for "consulship"), the first time incorrectly. Perhaps one of the regular editors should correct this. AWhiteC 15:23, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

done squell 14:14, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Long Article

I feel that this article may be too long for its own good. While I would not propose removing any of the content, I feel that a few subarticles might be preferred to this one, 57kb behemoth. Agree/disagree? Firestorm 15:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I shortened it a tiny bit.Cameron Nedland 22:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Bloated category silliness

I pruned it down to the essentials, but not sacrificing much of anything, actually.

These were already included in the Category:Julius Caesar:

These are higher cats under that same cat; thus, per standard policy, removed:

These were not included in the Category:Julius Caesar, but should have been, and therefore I moved them there. I think these are pretty silly as well; still, they can be defended:

These, on the other hand, are out-and-out nonsense:

Caesar, of all historians, could only be described as a novelist by someone bent on stressing, and in the most unfavorable light, that his campaign accounts are personal propaganda. While there is some homosexual rumor (the business with the king of Bithynia), neither one of the men was under age, though Caesar was young, and in fact one of the things held to be shameful was that Caesar was past the age of being a boy-lover. Fathering Caesarion does not make Caesar a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty; from the standpoint of a person coming to Wikipedia to get information, it is misleading and not useful to put him there — those interested in the dynasty will find him naturally enough under Caesarion. Bill 13:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Ides of March

Only a minor rephrasing is needed, not tagging with {{fact}}, well-intentioned though it may be. Plut. Jul. 63.5 presents it as a "story told by many"; Suet. Jul. 81.2 presents it as fact, with even a name attached to the soothsayer (which starts to remove it from the realm of urban legend). If we start tagging {{fact}} everything in Antiquity that isn't absolutely attested by rock-solid eyewitness evidence. . . ! Bill 15:47, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Military Genius and accusations that Caesar was not a strategic thinker

There is plenty of evidence in Caesar's commentaries that show that he did have "prior planning and strategic thinking". Just because Caesar was amazingly quick in his marches and surprising his opponents does not mean that he did not plan. Certainly he was a great gambler but due to his tactical skill he was able to compensate. Some of the Greatest generals in history (Napoleon, Caesar and Alexander) all were great at using speed, surprise and a dash of daring to lead their armies to victory. --M Drusus 22:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

J.F. Kennedy and Caesar?

In the Early Life section, paragraph 4, sentence two says:

"Towards the end of Marius' life in 86 BC, internal politics reached a breaking point. During this period, a deteriorating relationship with John F. Kennedy led Caesar to shoot his lifelong friend."

Doesn't this sound a bit absurd? I guess it is a typing-linking mistake (or the aothor made a joke?)

If J.F. Kennedy shared a period in the history with Caesar we maybe should take it more under the lupe! ==

Asli

Kidnapping by pirates

either the adjective of pirates is wrong or the link.

Ci-lic-ian or Ci-cil-ian.

or maybe I am just wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.120.254.148 (talkcontribs) 08:48, June 23, 2006

Thanks, the link was correct but "Cilician" was mispelled. I've corrected this now. Paul August 19:29, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Epilepsy?

As above. [5] porges(talk) 10:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Predecessor

It is highly misleading to label Sulla as Caesar's "Predecessor" in the dictatorship as this leaves the impression that a dictator was a regular magistrate (or worse, a kind of monarch). Sulla's and Caesars's dictatorships are separated by thirty years in which no one would have said that the dicatorship was "vacant" vel. sim. To regard Augustus as Caesar's successor is at least sanctified by usage since Suetonius.

But the infobox as a whole might be questionable, since it mentions a "Royal House" and "consort(s)", terms which are fitting for royalty since the Middle Ages and maybe for the emperors since Augustus, but not for the Roman republic.--193.175.194.60 07:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

How did he die

Tell me how Julius Caesar died and were to go to find out this information.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.69.137.206 (talkcontribs) .

The talk page of an article is generally used for discussion of the article- you could try asking your question at the humanities reference desk.
Don't forget to sign your posts, either.
EVOCATIVEINTRIGUE TALKTOME | EMAILME 22:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Read the article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar#The_assassination_plot Rafy 16:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)