Talk:Kabyle people

Irrelevant links

Links to [Black Spring] point to an irrelevant article. idiotoff 19:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I fixed links but didn't check accuracy (Zepard (talk) 15:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC))

Genetics section

When I first read this article it was unclear why the genetics section was present. Only in the middle of the first paragraph is a brief reference to the fact that this is about *Kabyle* genetics, buried in the middle of technical jargon. Initially I deleted this section, only restoring it when I saw the same 'genetics' section in the 'Kabylia' page. The 'genetics' section needs to be revised by its author to clarify its relevance; I don't think I could without trashing the scientific terminology. and for "the kabyles are mainly of european appearance part" i think it is false, it is deception, i can remove it but i'm sure the guy who wrote it will immediately put it back, i know kabylia well and europe too , and the kabyles are mostly of north-african appearance, the very same appearance as that of people from Lybia to Mauritania, some individuals in kabylia (as well as in other parts of north-africa) might have green eyes or fair hair but the overall face features and skull shape is still north-african and not european. Europeans speak indo-european language and are of indo-arian origin while north-africans are of afrasian origin and speak afrasian languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ikjan (talk • contribs) 18:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The Kabyle people don't look like Europeans, it's untrue, and you are right. But they don't look like a typical Mauritanian as well. They have, on average, fairer complexion than the two groups you have cited. Similarly, you'll find much more European-like looking individuals among the kabyle people than among Mauritanians for example. The kabylie region is much northern than Libya or Mauritania. Similarly, all the indigenous people of the northern parts of Algeria (coastal) have on average fairer skin than people from other parts of North Africa, simply because it's the most northern region of Africa(+ genetic flow during the Roman period). It's a fact. Keep in mind climate variations and UV distribution. I am kabyle from algeria, and I am easily recognizable as a kabyle in my country because of my light skin, which is, by the way, fairer than a lot of southern europeans( Ive visited most of them). It's a fact that zidane, who is a 100% kabyle/African, has a fairer complexion than a fair proportion of southern europeans. Rendez à césar ce qui est à césar...Berbers are what they are, brown in the south, whiter in the north, and that's it. They are not blacks, nor white europeans ( though I ve noticed a good deal of variation too out there). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.171.169.165 (talk) 23:42, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

language

i don't think that it's true that 'french' and 'algerian arabic' are kabyle's languages. must i remember you that kabyle people HATE everything how's arab(for political reasons)?And about french i must remember you that it's the language of the old colonial power,ever if a lot of kabyles know it very well.so i don't think that there's a lot of kabyles who agree with the idea that french is their own language. Wikpedia is a incredible source of excellent informations,that's why i want to make it better.i suggest you to put only 'KABYLE' in the section 'language' of the 'kabyle people' article.i'm kabyle and this is the opinion of 99% of kabyles. my best salutation to you, you're doing a INCREDIBLE work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.66.128.22 (talk) 11:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

related groups

and what about the relation between kabyls and greeks? every kabyl and every greek know the similarity of our origins, languages, alphabets(greek alphabet and tifinagh alphabet),culture....but the wikipedia article don't talk about it

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Arredi et al. 2004 HE DID NOT SAY THE PASTORALISTS CAME FROM AFRICA--INTENTIONAL MISQUOTE.

I came here after reading about Zinedine Zidane, and saw what I thought was an honest mistake or some shit... If you include studies in the text they have to be cited so everyone can see the source...

What is in the article now(from Arredi...)

->"The Y chromosome is passed exclusively through the paternal line. The composition of Y Chromozome is: 48% E3b1b (E-M81), 12% E3b* (xE3b1b), 17% R1*(xR1a) and 23% F*(xH, I,J2,K) [1]. According to this study (Arredi et al.2004) the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E3b and J haplogroups) is largely of Neolithic origin which suggests that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic–speaking pastoralists from Africa."

"...from Africa."

To my understanding the people of N Africa were from the middle east primarily (came out of east africa spreading e3b1), where afro-ASIATIC lanugages came from and were introduced to Africa through the spread of middle easternern farmers/pastoralists during the neolithic. Anybody who has taken an Anth 101 class should know that the pastoralists came from the FERTILE CRESCENT.

I have found Arredis study abstact on google, I will cite it at the bottom.. lets see what Arredi REALLY SAYS:

->"We have typed 275 men from five populations in Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt with a set of 119 binary markers and 15 microsatellites from the Y chromosome, and we have analyzed the results together with published data from Moroccan populations. North African Y-chromosomal diversity is geographically structured and fits the pattern expected under an isolation-by-distance model. Autocorrelation analyses reveal an east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Middle East and is compatible with a hypothesis of demic expansion. This expansion must have involved relatively small numbers of Y chromosomes to account for the reduction in gene diversity towards the West that accompanied the frequency increase of Y haplogroup E3b2, but gene flow must have been maintained to explain the observed pattern of isolation-by-distance. Since the estimates of the times to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCAs) of the most common haplogroups are quite recent, we suggest that the North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation is largely of Neolithic origin. Thus, we propose that the Neolithic transition in this part of the world was accompanied by demic diffusion of Afro-Asiatic-speaking pastoralists from the Middle East."

"...from the Middle East."

Didt even need to look in depth to see that it was wrong. Its obvious to me that the editor is INTENTIONALLY FALSIFYING INFORMATION AND DIDNT EDIT WITH GOOD INTENTIONS...NO WAY YOU CAN QUOTE IT ALL RIGHT EXCEPT FOR THAT ALL IMPORTANT LITTLE WORD AT THE END. Assume good faith...lol. Who knows what their motivation was, but whoever it is a dumbass peice of crap and this is why wikipedia sux balls and no professor with half a goddamn brain lets you reference wikipedia. -134.121.247.116 (talk) 08:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Nazism

The article says (on 2008-12-19) : "It is interesting to note that the Nazi racialists considered the Berbers especially the Kabyle as part of the Aryan race".

Why would that be interesting?

Interesting to whom?

Other racists? (And what is a "racialist"?)

That sentence should be deleted. There really is no need to propagate queer nazist ideology. Erik Rossini (talk) 20:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

--

Why? Because other North Africans don't look white and have Goth blood.

To whom? To those who have noticed this.

Sentence is probably important and relevant, Kabyles mainly noted for being white in appearance, let's not lie to ourselves here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.252.92.57 (talk) 01:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

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the kabyles are predominantly of European appearance?

This is a blatant lie , i wonder how such an error is maintained while my attempts to correct it are systematicly deleted, i'm myself a kabyle, a kabyle living in Europe , i know my people's appearance and I know european appearance, the kabyles are predominantly of north-african appearance, like most algerians and moroccans, although it is true that the percentage of european looking people is slightly higher among the kabyles than among the average algerians. To me it is clear that the guy who made this page is systematicly twisting the facts to try and portray the kabyles as a European population , unfortunately it is his contributions that are kept and validated , maybe because he is the one who is most adament in editing here and he systematicly erases any contribution that conflicts with his views.. anyway , in the section of genetics that he copied from a web page on the topic, he methodically deletes the parts that say that north-africans (berbers, including kabyles) are originally from the Near-east and East-africa , and in the "related people" section he puts some european peoples like the spaniards, the greeks, the basques as related to kabyles, based on no scientific or historic evidence , then he goes as far as to claim that some Nazis have said the kabyles are arians (this is the best one, lol). The context of this comes from some algerian berberists , who , in an attempt to differenciate themselves from the so-called Arabs (in reality mostly arabized berbers), try to associate themselves with europeans and invent imaginary historical and genetic links with the European peoples. the problem with wikipedia is that any charlatan can write anything and keep it for the world to read it and take it as accurate information , and as long as he edits often enough and persists in publishing his lies , no one can remove them, unfortunately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jekker (talk • contribs) 05:45, 6 May 2009 (UTC) Well quite, i would underline the "any charlatan can write anything" part (Surely that should be a anyhow,not any) and apply it to the ridiculous afrocentrists such as yourself. Any fool can see that the kabyles are predominately of a european appearance and the historical and genetical evidence strongly opposes your flimsy & lifeless theory. Essentialy what you are doing is exactly the same as the person you are complaining about.

Economy

If this section is maintained, I suggest it to be rewritten so it would describe the activity of people and not the the economy of Kabylie which has its own article where the economy can be described in details. (Zepard (talk) 15:58, 24 January 2010 (UTC))

Religion

Budhism (Budhist), some Roman catholic, protestant athist unrecognized minorities, some suni terrorists.

Here's what we can read in this part. Can someone correct it ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.6.177.80 (talk) 22:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Also, is there any support for the present claim that the Kabyles were traditionally Christian? What is the basis of this statement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.105.202.3 (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Doubtful. Maybe Western Kabyle, but they number only in the thousands. The millions in Algeria are all Muslim, albeit, I hear, practicers are not that common. UltimateDarkloid (talk) 13:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the "Muslim Communities of Africa" category from the article. While the majority of Kabyle's are Muslim, not all are and it wouldn't make sense to have this page in that category. Plus, historically speaking, Kabyle's were of various religions : Berber, Jewish, Christian and Muslim .. and not to mention atheists.TonyStarks (talk) 05:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

By that logic, almost no ethnic groups in Africa would qualify for this tag. Obiara (talk) 23:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I've corrected misleading assertions in the Religion section, and added references to the Encyclopedia Britannica; I hope that will put an end to all the editing back and forth that's been going on here. Obiara (talk) 20:59, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

A coming source of Encyclopedia Britannica seems to be insuffisant and little relevanton this controversial subject. I added reliable sources, stemming from specialists' works on the subject. Most of its works are in French, but it's the case of all important sources on north african studies. This region, culturally a french sphere of influence, seems to be rather little known and treated in the English-speaking world. Nabilus junius (talk) 18:12, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The well-referenced French Wikipedia article on the Kabyle people does not contain assertions like the ones you are making here. I've tried to incorporate your references (without page numbers, to print titles that I cannot verify) into a reasonable and verifiable discussion of the religious question. If you make any further edits, please do not delete my references. Obiara (talk) 15:08, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

And judging by the description of Amar Boulifa's nationalist writings on p. 78-80 of History and the Culture of Nationalism in Algeria by James McDougall (available via Google Books), I don't think he's an appropriate source of factual material for an encyclopedia! Obiara (talk) 16:48, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Your modification does not absolutely include the sources that I brought (I have just added the number of pages) because you assert in introduction the total opposite of what quote these sources. I modified the text by including your (only) source. On the French-speaking page of wikipedia, I indicate you that it seems that it have a conflict of publishing exactly on this religious question. As regards Boulifa, it is about a major author here in Algeria and it's the first time which I hears that he would have been nationalist (moreover, whiche kind of nationalism ?? Algerian or Kabyle??). Boulifa is rather unanimously recognized as a serious and renowned historian, apparently more than M.James McDougall (whose existence I learns). Even though Boulifa would have been nationalist (what, once again, is a new assertion), I don't strictly see which relationship with the religious question.

I don't ignore that a certain number of sources indicates a Moslem large majority within the Kabyle population, but in a non-democratic country like Algeria, where Islam is a state religion and where an anti-Kabyle politicy exists since independence, the influence of the Algerian official propaganda is not to be neglected.

According to the various sources, the number of the Kabyle Christians oscillates between 10 % and 50 %, whereas the number of Muslims oscillates between 30 % and 70 %, what gives very different estimations. In this context, it's in my opinion preferable not to give precise figures, but to insist on the pluri-religious character of the Kabyle society (what is an exception in North Africa, widely Muslim). Best regards. Nabilus junius (talk) 20:06, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Let's discuss a little more before I revert your edits again. The French Wikipedia article says the Kabyles are mostly Muslim with a few Christians, and cites the same source I do. When there is a difference of opinion on fact, we should give priority to a current, widely recognized source like Britannica, and then mention that there may be other opinions. If you have any sources for your figures above (preferably authoritative and online, so we can see them), you can put them in the article. Boulifa wrote what he wrote in 1925 as part of the development of the "Kabyle Myth" promoted by the French colonial government, and cannot be cited as a definitive source here. (But I do apologize for deleting the page numbers you added - I didn't notice them at the time.) Obiara (talk) 21:31, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

M.Obiara, your attitude is for little contemptuous and impolite. For whom do you take yourselves to decree that YOU go to delete my contribution?? I am sorry to indicate you that wikipedia is not your property, and that on no account you have the authority to decide of what is removable or not.

As regards our subject, it’s not a question of "opinions", but of facts. I quoted several diverse sources, you quoted only a single source. Instead of quoting more, you try to compromise mine, nevertheless widely known and recognized. You speak about the " Kabyle myth ". I am anxious to indicate you (what you seem to ignore), that the Kabyle myth is a thesis which has nothing scientific, but political, with both supporters and opponents.

You insist on this assertion: "The majority of Kabyles are Muslim, with a small Christian minority". What do you mean exactly by " majority", what do you mean exactly by" few "? From what percentage of the population can we consider this assertion as exact ? And which precise meaning you give for "Muslim" and "Christian" terms? I have spoken of "nominal muslims " and " nominal christians ". The Kabyle society is widely secular, shows of it the plebiscite that the political parties defending this principle meet in the region. Are all atheistic, deiste, agnostic kabyles, recorded as Muslims or Christians?? Is Matoub Lounes, the famous Kabyle singer (born in a nominal muslim family), recorded as muslim, despite his strong atheistic positions ??

I invite you to respect a little bit more other contributors. Try to discuss a suitable formulation on this question. For my part, I’m not hostile to the fact that the possible Moslem majority is quoted, but on the condition of indicating that there is a debate on the exact figures, and once again to insist more on the pluri-religiosity, which seems to me to be the most important information of this section. But avoid of modify one-sidedly the text, because it result only in a publishing war.Nabilus junius (talk) 11:55, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

If you want to know what “Muslim,” “Christian,” “majority” and “few” mean, you’ll have to ask the editors of the Encyclopedia Britannica. I have no opinion on the question; I’m just citing an authoritative, impartial, recent source of information, which is what we’re supposed to do here. Mr. Boulifa is a partisan ideologue who wrote almost a hundred years ago. If you have a current source that says most modern Kabyles are atheist, deist or agnostic, you can cite it as an alternative, less authoritative opinion.

Thank you for conceding that mainstream reference sources refer to a Muslim majority, and that that information should appear in the article. Maybe you would like to add it yourself. Information about the recent growth of other religious communities among the Kabyles could then follow that statement.

Next, let’s discuss your preferred formulation: “The traditional religion of Kabyles is Christianity, including Donatism and Arianism heritage.” More than anything else, that phrase is the reason I started attempting to improve this article. You ask me to respect other contributors, but you have reverted every attempt by other contributors (not just by me) to reword this. (And you did so without discussing the issue here, until I asked you to.) “Including Donatism and Arianism heritage” is not idiomatic English, so that will have to be rephrased. But, more importantly, the expression “traditional religion” is completely misleading and needs to be changed to something else. Christianity is certainly not the traditional religion of the Kabyles in the same way that it is of the Poles or the Portuguese (among whom there are also, no doubt, many atheists, deists and agnostics).

As my attempt to correct this section said, Christianity was present in North Africa in Classical times. Certainly in the Roman cities, and to an unknown extent also perhaps in the Numidian countryside. Thus, some of the Numidian ancestors of the modern Kabyles may or may not have been Christian. Unlike in Egypt or Syria, native Christianity did not survive the Islamic conquest in the Maghreb, so there is no continuity between early North African Christianity and the Kabyle Christian converts of the 19th century and later. Scholars have attempted to identify surviving elements of Christian origin in Berber culture (the use of the cross as a symbol in art, etc.), but these identifications are controversial. And in any case, traditional Kabyle society had no conscious memory of a Christian past. Therefore, “traditional religion” is inappropriate and misleading.

I recognize that claiming a special connection to North Africa’s pre-Islamic, and, perhaps, Christian heritage is an important element of modern Kabyle nationalist ideology – as evidenced by your own user name. It would be appropriate and important to mention that in this article, but the question needs to be explained much more carefully and accurately than it is now. Since you have revised this article more than anyone else and clearly feel protective of its content, can you suggest a reasonable rewrite of this section that would meet Wikipedia’s standards and address my concerns?

Then when we’re done with this we can start working on that “Brief People’s History,” which needs a lot of revision. I’m looking forward to collaborating with you as we continue to improve this article so that readers of English Wikipedia will have access to the accurate, unbiased information about your people that they deserve. Obiara (talk) 17:53, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Population numbers

What is the source for these given numbers? It seems to me as unreliable as the one about Maghrebim, that has recently been removed due to lack of sources. According to this [1] and this [2], the Kabyle are not that abundant in the West. Not sure how reliable these sources are, but they do disagree with the sources provided here. UltimateDarkloid (talk) 13:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Kabylia flag

this flag is not specific to the kabylian region. defense of using it in this article

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Omar2788 (talk • contribs) 14:14, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

"Brief People's History"

This will serve as advance notice to other interested contributors that I intend to delete most of the section entitled "Brief People's History" and replace it with a much shorter section in a more appropriate position in the History section further down. Besides the very large number of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, there are numerous problems with this section, which consists almost entirely of irrelevant, questionable or obviously incorrect information:

• irrelevant geographical and zoological information that belongs in the article on Kabylie e.g. "bears, wild bors, wolfs, monkeys, eagles and even hayens"
• a large amount of historical narrative that belongs in the existing articles on Numidia or the ancient Numidians, not here; it should be replaced by a link to those articles
• the assertion that the Vandals were also called "Geiserics"
• the assertion that the Vandals invaded North Africa as part of a "Vandal-Numidian coalition" not mentioned elsewhere in Wikipedia
• an alleged migration of 80000 people to the mountains at some unspecified period in late Antiquity
• polemical POV statements in the final paragraph that have no place in Wikipedia, e.g. "a membership into the Arab League - Source of all Algerian post-colonial ills"

Please post any concerns about this proposed deletion and replacement here. Thank you. Obiara (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Disputed

The following issues in this article are disputed:

• whether and how to cite available sources for the relative proportion of Muslims and Christians among the Kabyles (see Religion section above)
• the description of Christianity as the "traditional religion" of the Kabyles (see Religion section above)
• the relevance and accuracy of numerous statements in the "Brief People's History" section, enumerated above
• the accuracy of the population figures given
• the appropriateness of using the proposed "Berber flag" to represent Kabylie, a region within Algeria Obiara (talk) 22:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

1. Any statistic drawn from a book almost 100 years old is surely wrong regarding today's percentages.
2. Moreover, I have just read Amar Boulifa, Le Djurdjura à travers l'histoire depuis l'Antiquité jusqu'en 1830 : organisation et indépendance des Zouaoua (Grande Kabylie), Page 119, 1925, Algiers. and have found no mention of religion on that page, besides that, it is a, for the most part, unsourced book.
3. On the population figures, one can only use that which is cited. Ethnologue, the citation used cites speakers of Kabyle, not ethnic Kabyles. --Bob (talk) 22:40, 22 June 2011 (UTC)