Talk:Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji

Comment

The Opus clavicembalisticum is neither the longest piece nor (as the book of w. r. puts it more carefully) the longest non-minimalistic/repetitious piece (in the manner of Satie's Vexations which is certainly longer). Sorabji's Symphonic Variations for piano is very likely longer, for instance. Schissel - bowl listen 04:01, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this information to light. Ryguillian

Perhaps a more complete listing of Sorabji's repitoire is in order? Anybody have any information pertaining to this. I am aware of one published listing. - User:Ryguillian

I can think of writing to Paul Rapoport about using part of his list with permission (him, or contacting Alistair Hinton, but I'd contact Prof. Rapoport first), but his list is the only even mostly accurate one I know of. He wrote the latest Grove Dictionary entry as well as the chapter in A Critical Celebration that you may be thinking of?? Schissel : bowl listen 18:42, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

I asked him about the list in A Critical Celebration specifically; he's alright with its being paraphrased but not reproduced. Also was warned to watch out for incompleteness and minor mistakes at that (I also asked about in part vs in full but the reply didn't -directly anyway- reply there. May want to make a large but admittedly selective and, yes, paraphrased list.) Schissel : bowl listen 17:59, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

If no one else has by then I'll get on this fairly soon. Probably a brief and selective list, but haven't decided yet whether to organize by time-period or medium/genre/... (Ok ok already, enough talk, will see if I have something this evening.) Schissel : bowl listen 17:18, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

It would seem that much of Sorabji's music is in the public domain, and almost all of that is unpublished, available only via photocopy from private archive. If anyone comes across any of his sheet music, it would be great if it were posted here, to avoid getting gouged hundreds of dollars by university archivists with photocopiers.

On the contrary, the Sorabji Archive holds the copyright at this time to most of it, unless I am much mistaken. Schissel : bowl listen 04:29, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be advantageous to get more information on Sorabji and possibly a picture? Also, perhaps members of the Sorabji Archive would be interested in contributing to this article. Ryguillian

Perhaps, the archive might answer whether Sorabji's mentioned bitterness, famous sense of humour and reluctance to have his work performed were the reasons for his choice of curator :-)

Would like to keep a specific number of indents to each specific person (that's how I've seen it done on Wiki-talk pages rather than having long conversations go 'in' 12 paces, turn about, shoot!... bad joke. As to your question, yes- could ask Mr. Hinton or Prof Rapoport (actually, now retired I think??... need to check McMaster page about that) about a photo, about involvement (not creative control, that's not a Wikipedia thing I'd say, but collaboration yes ...) Schissel : bowl listen June 29, 2005 13:53 (UTC)

I'm glad to see the page being expanded; it mig... it would be wise to ask Mr. Hinton about quoting that brochure (even though it is public relations material; I've asked similarly about the brochure put out by the Benjamin Frankel society and its very substantial list of compositions, even though in my case regrettably it was a request after the fact...) and again any further references to/matters sourced from A Critical Celebration need to be within its editor's general guidelines (summarizing, paraphrasing, etc. - I can ask if he was paraphrasing "fair use" law which would be a very limited quotation/paraphrase indeed and require the removal of much that's already there, but certainly too much more specifically from would violate the intent. Using the brochure if allowed by its author is certainly a good supplement. (And a recording of Chaleur and other small-orchestra works would be good, off the subject and I have thought - though I have not heard them specifically. Still hoping, too, that Radio Hilversum, which does webcast, will re?broadcast the 5th piano concerto at some point.) Schissel : bowl listen 16:17, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Geoffrey Douglas Madge and Opus clavicembalisticum

We're told that he performed it "several times", but also that he performed it "six times". Does the "several times" refer only to 1982, or to his entire career? This needs to be clarified.

• In 1982 (p 442, my copy of Critical Celebration...) he performed O.Clav. once- June 11 in Utrecht, broadcast simultaneously (also one incomplete performance, one movement only, also in June.) Schissel-nonLop! 06:00, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

What's the evidence that Madge's improvisations have led to negative criticism of Sorabji's music in general? I've removed "blatantly" (POV). JackofOz 01:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Piano variations

The Symphonic variations in three books for solo piano - I believe that's the title, I'll check - not yet performed, recently edited at least in part into a performing edition - are long enough, require enough choices in tempo, that "five hours" seems at best an approximation; performances of the briefer Opus Clav. have lasted between, I think, two and a half and upwards of four hours. And this is without significant multiply-repeated sections such as are an integral part of the aesthetic of Satie (much Vexed.. ok, ok..) or Feldman, at least in the works of Sorabji's that I know-- such as cause a big work like Feldman's 2nd quartet to have had performance durations in really wide ranges. (I'm surprised from descriptions I've seen of Rzewski's The Road that its performance timing isn't on the order of "6-9 hours depending on performer choices of tempo" -- etc. -- also. And I do not know where the 5 hours figure came from, though it may well be accurate!) Schissel-nonLop! 06:00, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Opening Sentence

There are obviously many problems with this article. Namlely, it is in need of complete reorganization as it is currently in a highly unbalanced and is mostly a patch-work of miscellaneous facts (some of which, as I’ll show, are inaccurate). Let’s take the opening sentence, for example.

“Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji (August 14, 1892 – October 15, 1988) was a pianist, music journalist and composer of mixed Parsi and Spanish-Italian/Sicilian descent, who was born in and lived in Britain (Epping, Essex)”

Well, for one the order “pianist”, “music journalist”, and “composer” seems rather off. It seems to me that a better order would be rather the opposite: “composer”, “music journalist”, and “pianist” as Sorabji is most well known for his compositions.

Also, the bit about being of “mixed Parsi and Spanish-Italian/Sicilian descent” is questionable to. At least, information in the booklet accompanying Jonathan Powell’s recording of Sorabji’s Fantasia ispanica on the Altarus Label suggestions otherwise, “Sorabji may well have been misled into believing that he was part Spanish and part Sicilian” and “recent research has unearthed evidence of neither [his mother’s supposed] Spanish nor Sicilian family.”

ryguillian 14:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Original surname: Dudley or Sorabji??

(This post moved from User Talk:JackofOz) Actually, if you read his online biographies, it states that his birth name was Leon Dudley Sorabji (his father was an Indian civil servant of Parsi background). Thats why I put Sorabji at the end of Leon Dudley. Afghan Historian 21:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The internet is full of information, some accurate and some not. For example:

• This and Britannica and many other internet sites say he was born Leon Dudley.
• This has a bet each way. It calls him "Leon Dudley" in the title, but "Leon Dudley Sorabji" in the text.
• This asserts his surname was always Sorabji, and puts the blame at the feet of Nicolas Slonimsky for getting the information wrong.

Slonimsky was a stickler for doing original research, obtaining birth and death certificates rather than relying on what others had said about composers' dates and places of birth and death and their birth names. In the absence of any solid documentary evidence to the contrary, I would much prefer to believe him. JackofOz 07:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Date of death

Slonimsky also says that Sorabji died on 14 October, not 15 October. Can this be verified? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:03, 18 April 2008 (UTC) Verification : Yes, he really died.

Complete list?

Replaced with selected list instead. (Ah. I was under the misapprehension that my e-mail from Paul Rapoport dated 4-17-05 required at most a selected list- no:

"Paraphrased is okay, not reproduced."

The list in A Critical Celebration - which has now been reproduced online, but that cannot be reproduced without permission either - is incomplete also so Selected list seems appropriate and less misleading in any case. Schissel | Sound the Note! 13:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorabji Entry: Major Edit?

Although I am grateful for the work that has been accomplished in creating an entry for Sorabji on Wikipedia, I do feel that a substantial rewrite is in order, one that is more expansive, detailed, and accurate. Should the editing community agree it would be my pleasure to initiate this process, drawing from my doctoral dissertation and research on the composer for the bulk of the facts and a more relevant sequence of subheadings? Please share any thoughts, suggestions, admonishments or dissensions that you might have. (Seanvaughn (talk) 22:42, 26 December 2008 (UTC))

Assuming you are still waiting for an answer, then yes, it would be great if this article could contain more than just lists and anecdotes. Toccata quarta (talk) 09:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Partial list

Being aware of the fact that in recent times I have been the only person to work with substantial frequency on this article, I would like to raise the issue of what should be done with the list of performed and recorded works. What should be included, and what should be excluded? Since the only piece by Sorabji to have an article devoted to it is Opus clavicembalisticum, we can't place a discography elsewhere. Nevertheless, should the list found in this article be limited to "major works"? If so, I might reduce it somewhat, if no one objects. --Toccata quarta (talk) 14:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)