Talk:Karelians

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Language[edit]

The Karelian language is very closely related to the Finnish language, and particularly by Finnish linguists seen as a dialect of Finnish. The dialect of Karelians who are citizens of Finland is however uncontroversially considered a dialect of Finnish, since that's the standard language taught in schools. Finnish Karelians speaks however Finnish. ??????? What somebody meant here? 62.143.8.246 16:38, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't know. There has still not made clear difference between Karelians and Finnish Karelians. Karelians are Karelians living mainly in Republic of Karelia. Finnish Karelians are however Finnish people like Tavastians (hämäläiset) are, or Savolax (savolaiset), or Proper Finns (varsinaissuomalaiset), or Bothnians (pohjalaiset), or uusimaalaiset. For example: President of Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, is Finn, karjalainen not Karelian.
In Finnish language there is not Karelian dialect but Southeastern dialects (kaakkoismurteet). Karelian language is different than that Southeastern dialect. Karelian language is so near to Finnish language that some linguist see it as a dialect of Finnish.

Kahkonen 19:18 9 May 2004 (UTC)

So what to do? We know, that there is two types of Karelians: Karelians who live in Finland and consider themselves Finns and Karelians who live in Republic of Karelia and consider themselves Karelians.

See link (about Finns called Karelians):

President Martti Ahtisaari's speech:

Kahkonen 08:43 10 May 2004 (UTC)

We explain more, and state less. If you by "different types" mean that Savo people were transferred to Ladoga-Karelia, then write that with years and figures if you know. If you mean that people's mentality was influenced by the difference between being a serf or a taxed freeholder, then write that - or, maybe even better: propose wordings here if you fear that you might be misunderstood.

Although I do of course not endorse everything at the karjalan liitto site, I would like to remind you of the following prominently located statement:

Throughout recorded history, Karelia had been under the rule of either Sweden (Finland) or Russia (Novgorod), but its inhabitants were almost exclusively Finno-Ugrians. After Finland gained independence in 1917, Karelia was divided between the two states, Finland and Soviet Union.

--Johan Magnus 08:19, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I mean this, what I wrote to Tuomas in my Talk page: Do You think that other Finns and evacuated Karelians are 'different peoples'? I, and official Finland and other world, do not think. So you want to say that Karelians living in East Karelia are Finns? Or that Finns are Karelians? I think _that_ is very POV. Kahkonen 09:20 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Think of the difference between Finnic and Finns. A Karelian can be, but doesn't have to be, a Finn. While all Karelians are Finnic, only the western Karelians are Finns. Remember that we write for an intended public that may know very little or nothing. Do not assume that the reader know anything in advance, but keep in mind that some readers might, so it's important not to "disturb" such readers with statements that conflict with their understanding (unless their understanding is patently false AND unusual), which would give our text a low credibility. I hope we agree that things common for Karelians are to be mentioned first; Things different for different Karelians are to be mentioned thereafter? If you agree with official Finland, then I think this is most of all a matter of linguistics, since I don't believe to be in conflict with official Finland either. --Johan Magnus 08:51, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I think this is same among 'Swedish-speaking Finns' Swedes or Finns. Following this logic we can talk about Swedes who live in Sweden and in Western Finland, and only they are Finns. So: "A Swede can be, but doesn't have to be, a Finn."

But, Finns and 'western' Karelians are not distinc ethnical group and nor are 'Swedish-speaking Finns' and Finns. Go look Finland's official pages and post here, if you find distinc ethnical groups of Western Karelians and Finns. There are about 300 000 such Finns and at least 1 000 000 who have Karelian parents. So post here, if you find such numbers.

About dialect and language: The dialect spoke by evacuated Finns are not same than language (or dialect) spoke by Karelians. This fact has never criticized by linguists. Only that is, if Karelian language is a distinc language or a dialect of Finnish.Kahkonen 10:02 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, borders of ethnicity and nations are to a large degree arbitrary. Hence one must keep in mind in who's interest different definitions are. In accordance with many Russian sources, you can argue that those Karelians that came under Swedish and later Finnish rule were un-Kareliïzed if not evacuated to Tver. But this is not in accordance with the usage in either Finland or the English speaking world. In English, the notion of the Fennomans and AKS has had some success, which also reflects in the Many Karelias-article at Virtual Finland.

With virtually all ethnicities you can find some kind of influence back and forth with neighbouring groups. Hence members of a certain ethnicity that become isolated from eachother can often be considered to evolve into separate ethnicities. But again, it's not easy to say when such a process is concluded.

Are the Flemish ethnically different from the Dutch? Are Norwegians ethnically different from Swedes? Are Scanians? Are Ålanders? Are Finland-Swedes? You may have convictions making you answer these question with yes or no, but that's not my point. My point is that both answers are reasonable and in most cases probable. Therefore it's good to be careful in one's wordings. Therefore I reverted your recent change here[1]. Kind regards! /Tuomas 15:16, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

So why not to add these tips into page when they are facts? Saying like "In Finland, West Karelians are considered and consider themselves Finns". This is a fact and "we only list facts" - it's NPOV, you know?
And thank you, you are saying I'm not a Finn ethnically :-) Go and say to Martti Ahtisaari he is not ethnically Finn :-) Or Kimi Räikkönen.
What did I say? You should maybe read one time more?
By the way: You might be interested in the new page on Finns. /Tuomas 10:31, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Kahkonen 19:23, 10 May 2004 (added some more 07:40 11 May 2004) (UTC)



Again, I want to emphasize that: "In Finnish language there is not Karelian dialect but Southeastern dialects (kaakkoismurteet)."

This is a fact, that no linguist has critisized.

"Karelian language is different than that Southeastern dialect."

This is a fact, that no linguist has critisized.

But: "Karelian language is so near to Finnish language that some linguist see it as a dialect of Finnish."

See? If not see page: (sorry, in Finnish) http://www.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokokuva/kansanperinne/karjalanmurre.html

And compare (this is not same text, but you can see differences): Karelian language:
"Enne vahnas Karjalas oli vähä peldomuadu, sendäh mešäs ajettih kaskie. Kaski ajettih keviäl, konzu jo puuloih roih täüzi lehti. Puut kuattih, karzittih. Parembat parret mendih dieloih, karumbat päittih hallokse. Tulien vuon se kaski poltettih, sit künnettih."

http://www.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokokuva/kansanperinne/kaakkoismurteet.html Southeastern dialect:
"Myö annettii sil viel yks pien pala ja lähettii juoksemaa nii kovast ku jaksettii. Mut eihä se karhu kauva sitä yhtä pallaa syönt. Se läks juoksemaa mei peräst ja sai meijät kii iha vähä matka pääs. Mei pit taas antaa sil vehnästä eikä myö ennää hirvitty lähtee juoksemaakaa ku meitä alko jo vähä hirvittää se karhu kujjeet."

http://www.internetix.ofw.fi/opinnot/opintojaksot/8kieletkirjallisuus/aidinkieli/murteet/kaakkmur.html

In English: http://www.nordiska.uu.se/ICLaVE2/ICLaVE_pdf/Markkola.pdf


http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/ethno/Finl.html: FINNISH [FIN] 4,700,000 in Finland, 93.5% of population (1993); 300,000 in Sweden (1987); 12,000 in Norway (1993); 5,153 in Estonia (1993); 214,168 in USA (1970 census); 36,725 in Canada (1971 census); 6,000,000 in all countries (1995 WA). Uralic, Finno-Ugric, Finno-Permic, Finno-Cheremisic, Finno-Mordvinic, Finno-Lappic, Balto-Finnic. Dialects: SOUTHWESTERN FINNISH, HÄME (TAVAST), SOUTH POHJANMAA, CENTRAL AND NORTH POHJANMAA, PERÄPOHJA, SAVO (SAVOLAX), SOUTHEASTERN FINNISH (FINNISH KARJALA, FINNISH KARELIAN). Southeastern dialects called 'Karelian' in colloquial Finnish are distinct from true Karelian (T. Salminen). Finnish is closely related to Karelian and Olonetsian. About 300,000 are bilingual in Swedish. National language. Typology: SVO. Christian. Braille Bible. Bible 1642-1991. NT 1548-1976. Bible portions 1891-1986.

This is mentioned somehow even in Red Book: " Ingrians is not a separate language but consists of eastern Finnish dialects (the vernaculars of the Savo and southeastern dialects of Ingermanland"

http://www.kotikielenseura.fi/virittaja/hakemistot/jutut/vir98palander.html

And simply google "southeastern dialects Finnish".

And good collection of links in page http://learning.lib.vt.edu/slav/nat_ethnic_nordic.html#finland Kahkonen 20:16, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, I just added info about the south western dialects to the article, take a look and comment on that. I even added some footnotes to sites that unfortunately are in Finnish. Kahkonen, note that this article is about the language of the Karelians, not the Karelian language. -- Jniemenmaa 19:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I tried to add this information, but they always deleted it. You did it better, thank you. But, why there is still that stupid clause "Karelians living in Finland learn Finnish standard language in school." Of course they do! So do I and so do all Finns. /Kahkonen 7:40, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Different groups of Karelians[edit]

Let us make one point perfectly clear: The "Russian Karelians and "Finnish Karelians" are not the same ethnic group. The Russian Karelians spoke their own Karelian language (some of them still do) which was closely related to the eastern dialects of Finnish, but is neverthless a distinct language (nowadays most of the Russian Karelians speak Russian). Russian Karelians have not traditionally considered themselves to be Finns, but have cultivated their own identity instead. Attempts to obliterate the difference between two different kinds of Karelians are based either on misunderstanding and limited knowledge of Finnish history, or on some national-chauvinistic agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.30.179.130 (talkcontribs) 11:48, 9 March 2006

Yes. I hope that those favoring the current version of the article would write their reasons here. The current version claims that these are the same people, which is 1) not true, 2) anti-consensus (also by looking at this talk page), 3) not backed by any sources either. By the way, one has to remember also the radical population changes which occurred in the 1600s. The article in the Finnish Wikipedia is in an OK shape. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

updated the article according to Minahan, James (2000). One Europe, Many Nations. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. pp. 368. ISBN 9780313309847.  and Language Death and Language Maintenance. John Benjamins Publishing Company. 2000. ISBN 9789027247520. . More work is needed of course but I hope this puts things back on track--Termer (talk) 20:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


Number of the Karelians in Finland[edit]

Some misinformed person restored a nonsensical piece of disinformation into the article. The numbers on Finnish people evacuated from the ceded territories in 1939 and 1944 simply is not the same as the number of Karelians in Finland, as Finnish Karelia was not ceded completely. Referenced information should not be restored if it is completely irrelevant. It is hardly possible to estimate the number of Finnish Karelians very exactly, as it is a diffuse sub-ethnic identity. The present-day Karelian districts in Finland have 300 000 inhabitants, but not all of them might designate themselves as Karelians - and people identifying themselves as Karelians live in all parts in Finland.--212.146.44.208 (talk) 20:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Please note that in case you continue editing the article according to your opinions that contradicts what the given sources say, the article is going to be listed for protection. Feel free to introduce any facts to the article according to WP:RS, any claim or opinion that is not sourced is going to be reverted and removed. Any removal or altering the sourced text is going to take the article closer to WP:RPP. thanks!--Termer (talk) 22:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Given sources I removed are completely mispresented, irrelevant and misleading so they cannot have any value whatsoever. That should be evident to anyone who knows anything about this matter! It is simply absurd to suggest that the number of still living evacuated persons from the ceded territories is the same as the number of Finnish Karelians. Does your source even claim that? I do not believe it does, so you are probably using the source in a way comparable to original research. The East Karelian flag is not a symbol of Finnish Karelians. And so on. You are abusing the Wikipedia rules to present misleading information based on mispresented sources.--130.234.5.136 (talk) 09:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Edit I checked it out: Benjamin's book does not suggest in any way that the II World War evacuees were the only Finnish Karelians. So you have misused the source, perhaps in an oversight. Besides the introductory part you restored in the article is of very poor quality, very confusing and in many respects conflicting with the rest of the article. To example, the separation between the Finnish and East Karelians is mentioned in the language part of the article; you cannot remove the information from the introductory part only.
Please see WP:RSUE, I might have to revert your edits because of it. The source you claim is completely mispresented, is available for online reading if you follow the link and everybody can verify the facts. In case you continue without presenting any sources and, adding facts like 300 000 inhabitants in present-day Finnish Karelia East Karelian flag (Note: Not a symbol of the Finnish Karelians etc. the claims that are in conflict with the given book, One Europe, Many Nations the article is going to be listed at WP:SEMI so that it would be possible to clean it up finally. thanks! --Termer (talk) 03:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Your comments are simply so misinformed that I do not know what to do about them. Unlike you suggest, my claims are in no way in conflict with the source book you present, as the source does not claim that the 140,000 war evacuees are the only Finnish Karelians or that the East Karelian flag is a symbol of the Finnish Karelians too. In other words you have misrepresented the source, and anyone can check this. It is obvious that you know next to nothing about the Karelians and presumably care even less, so why do you bother?--130.234.68.225 (talk) 10:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Please note that in case you choose to comment on contributors instead of the content also in the future, you comments can be simply removed from this talk page pr WP:NPA. I'm clad that you are willing to claim about your competence regarding the subject. Please do not hesitate to show it in practice by editing the article according to secondary published sources and cleaning it up by providing inline citations etc. and following the WP:STYLE. Leaving the article in current state is unacceptable and since you haven't provided any sources to your opinions and claims above regarding the flag etc, these edits of yours can be reverted to back to according to One Europe, Many Nations any time. where it clearly names the flag as the Karelian flag without any reference to "East Karelians". regarding c 140,000 Karelians living in Finland, the note always said that they were Finnish records of people born in Karelia, the areas ceded to the USSR after WWII, there is no need to duplicate that information in the infobox etc.
I'm willing to give you some time in order for you to get a chance to clean up the article. Just that in case you're going to proceed editing the article according to your opinions and without referring to any published sources printed in English, I would have to revert this article back to the way James Minahan has represented the facts in his book. So please, do not hesitate to put your claimed competence in practice.--Termer (talk) 14:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
James Minahan is very obviously discussing only the Orthodox East Karelians, and does not suggest in any way that the flag is connected to Lutheran Finnish Karelians. The flag should, can and will be removed from the infobox, as no source is presented for the uncorrect claim that it is a symbol of both groups of Karelians.--195.237.90.72 (talk) 14:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC) This site [2] tells of the history of the East Karelian flag. The infobox of the article is generally so confused that it is a disgrace. The introductory part is relatively good after my edits, referring to a website maintained by an institution under the Finnish Ministry of Education. Edit After reading English websites, it seems that in English the ethnonym Karelians refer mainly to the (Orthodox) East Karelians, and does not generally include the concept of (Lutheran) Finnish Karelians. It would be advisable to reduce this article to discuss only the East Karelians and take the information of the Finnish Karelians to separate articles discussing the Karelian provinces of Finland. (Finnish Karelians are not an ethnic group, but rather a regional group included in the Finnish ethnicity).--195.237.90.72 (talk) 14:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, in case you think it's better now, why did you tag your own edits with the neutrality disputed tag? regarding Minahan, he clearly describes the flag as Karelian without any reference to Orthodox or Lutherianism. In case you say that the Finnish Karelians think of themselves as a sub-group of Finnish people, how would be that relevant to the article here? Everything about Finnish sub-groups should go into the article about Finnish people.--Termer (talk) 14:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Neutrality tag was a protest against some of your edits, such as the presentation of the East Karelian flag as a symbol of all Karelians. Read the Minahan's text carefully, and you will see that he is very obviously discussing only the non-Finnish Karelians belonging to the distinct Karelian ethnicity - in other words, the Orthodox East Karelians. (Minahan mentions that some Karelians live in Finland too. It is easy to see what he is referring to: Before 1939 and 1944, there were 55 000 Karelian-speaking Orthodox Karelians in Finland too, but after the evacuation they have been linguistically assimilated in the Finnish population). Information of the identity of the Finnish Karelians is extremely essential, necessary and relevant here as long as both of the distinct groups of Karelians are discussed in a same article (which is perhaps unwise). It is very significant that the Finnish Karelians do not share the same ethnic or national identity with East Karelians, despite of the often expressed feeling of being closely related with them. I cannot understand why you want to obscure this issue.--195.237.90.72 (talk) 15:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
So it has become be obvious that this article should be mostly about the east Karelians and the Finnish Karelians should be a part of Finnish people as the subgroup. The article can briefly mention the historic relationship but should have a note on top of the article saying that . The article Finnish people should have a clear section Finnish Karelians that should have a note, for inf about Eastern Karelians see Karelians. Do you want to take care of it so that the mess could be cleaned up?--Termer (talk) 15:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Or, we can make Karelians into a disamb page that says Karelians may refer to Finnish Karelians see Finnish people and Eastern Karelians, see Eastern Karelians or whatever is the most common name for Orthodox Karelians used in English.--Termer (talk) 15:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
And this can happened of course as long as there is a source printed in English that represents the facts this way. Since WP is not dealing with people's personal identities, either someone identifies him/herself as a sub-Finn Karelian, Karelian in general or an Eastern-Karelian should not be an issue on WP.--Termer (talk) 15:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)