Talk:Karl Benz

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fluffery[edit]

Check the article to see what the "fluffery" comment was in reference to. --Robert Merkel

Trivia section[edit]

Trivia sections on Wikipedia are considered very bad form. All imformation within this section should be dispersed to apropriate places within the article. --The_stuart 18:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

  1. There is no evidence that Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler knew about each other's earliest achievements. They both were working independently toward the same invention. The first Benz of 1885 and the Daimler Stahlradwagen of 1889 both borrowed from bicycle technology. Daimler used the hollow tubes of the frame of the 1889 car as a mechanism for cooling the car: water flowed through them. The early Peugeots, fitted with Panhard-built Daimler engines, used the technology of the 1889 Stahlradwagen.
  2. Benz's last home, at Ladenburg, is used as the headquarters of the Gottlieb Daimler & Karl Benz Foundation, with many annual events held there.
  3. Karl vs. Carl: Two spellings of Benz's first name can be found in places or institutions named after him. All of the official municipal registries show, Karl, such as on Benz's birth registration, his entry to the Polytechnikum, and his first patent (1879). At the end of the 19th century, however, the French spelling of names came into fashion in Germany and it seems that even Benz began to use, Carl, as seen in his 1882 patent or the Ladenburg company Benz Sons. At least, it was recorded as such—so Benz may have used both forms—or, perhaps the entries were made by others following the vogue. The German Orthographic Reform of 1901 generally replaced use of the French spelling, Carl, with the former German spelling convention, Karl, and DaimlerChrysler has adopted the use of the birth name spelling, using Karl Benz.
  4. There are several Carl Benz schools throughout Germany, among which are two professional training schools at Mannheim and Koblenz, two high schools at Ladenburg and Berlin, as well as several primary schools, many of those found in the region of Karlsruhe and at Stuttgart, cf. a google search for "Carl Benz Schule".
  5. Karl Benz's great great grandson Marco Benz enlisted in the United States military.[1]

The above was formerly the trivia section. It was removed in this edit. --Jtir 13:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

wikification of years[edit]

Do we really need all these years Wikified? It seems sensible to link anybody's birth & death date, since if they're in Wikipedia, their birth & death is at least a little significant. Also important are the dates of anything that has made the person significant, such as of Benz's invention. But the relatively unimportant dates of his marriage and his retirement seem bad candidates for Wikification to me. Marriages are generally only signficant (for the rest of us) when dynasties are involved. BTW, I'm thinking primarily of making the "What Links Here?" pages for years more useful. -- Hotlorp

What's the harm? That's why I put them in, to make "What links here" more useful. I imagine someday someone will want to create a timeline and the data will be there. In the meantime, it's interesting to see what else was going on at the time that Marcel Duchamp hung the urinal on the gallery wall or Mr. Daimler met Mr. Benz. And, to be able to do so either from the Karl Benz page or from the 1926 page. Ortolan88 07:31 Jul 30, 2002 (PDT)

But both your examples (Duchamp, Benz meets Daimler) meet my criterion of being important events, or events which turned out to have major consequences, for the rest of us, not just for the individual. You neglected to opine on the two examples I cited. There seems to me to be a distinction we can draw, linking only those dates which have significance beyond the page they're described on.

Basically, I can't see how the "What Links Here" pages for years are more useful if absolutely every mention of that year links there. It seems you want to ignore a useful distinction most Wiki editors can draw between the significant and the trivial. -- Hotlorp

I'll try not to be compulsive about it, but I generally think, the more links, the merrier. Regards, Ortolan88

Apologies for the tone of my previous message. (I should note that part of my objection to having everything linked is typographic -- it's distracting to have too many links in a text intended to be read.) I think the way I decide what to link is to avoid occasions for "overly casual" clicking around the encyclopedia, where there isn't a good reason for putting what's mentioned into context, or going into any more detail on that particular subject would not enhance one's understanding of that topic. Of course this is highly subjective. We all do this to some extent, working out a position some way inside the extreme of having every word linked (for example to a dictionary definition). -- Hotlorp

I guess it depends on the wiki skin and settings, and the browser (stopped using Opera for ugliness issues) but I don't find the links obtrusive; usually they reassure me that the article I'm reading is wired in to the rest of the encyclopedia. On the other hand, after a long night at this, when I'm reading in bed, sometimes individual words in my book appear in blue, making me want to click on them! Ortolan88

Daimler and Benz never met each other personally, i recommend the german wikipedia sites. (Maybach and Daimler work together.) Benny

Forget names, look at all the other crap that is linked. Water? Address? New Years Eve? If that isn't overkill I don't knwo what is. TastyCakes 06:27, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
That's known as overlinking. The guideline is: Only make links that are relevant to the context. --Jtir 16:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Carl or Karl?[edit]

Is it Karl or Carl, officially? I ask as the Foundation named for him is spelt with a K. Stombs 22:38, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

The German wikipedia article states that he changed his name from Karl to Carl later in his life. Thus Carl should IMHO be the better choice. andy 21:16, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I also knew him rather as "Carl". Shouldn't we make the move? — MFH:Talk 17:03, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
consider also 30 000 google hits for "Carl Benz Schule" vs. 39 google hits for "Karl Benz Schule"... I strongly suggest a move, and at least a modification of the first line of the article. — MFH:Talk 20:41, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
WP:MOSBIO says "...the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known...".
His autobiography and one biography spell his name Carl. A third book spells it Karl. This photograph shows the name of his company: "C. BENZ SÖHNE KG".
I favor renaming to Carl Benz with a redirect from Karl Benz. The article can explain name variants in a note.
--Jtir 14:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I renamed the article and made changes to correspond. The article says nothing about when and why he changed his name. The section on his birth name is very confusing without this info. --Jtir 14:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
How undid this intelligent change without considering it worth while adding a note here, where concensus had been reached!? — MFH:Talk 12:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Fixing this page[edit]

It's pretty obvious a lot has been lost in the translation of this page. There's a lot of stuff that doesn't make any sense, and even more stuff that is understandable but really bad english. I went through and fixed most of it but then the stupid thing didn't save. Could someone try and fix it up some? TastyCakes 06:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

lol Some Shakespeare genius have been around here this weekend. --Zzzzzzus 12:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)zzzzzzus

..................

Today I tackled most of the article to take the translations from German into better English and shifted a few things around to make the article read better. I will come back to touch up during the next week. --- kb 2006.03.19

Benz unit[edit]

I was to add a note about the Benz unit, but neither it's page nor metre per second have enough information to justify a whole new section. I also couldn't add it on the other sections, which are about his companies history. Anyone know when did the SI comitee named m/s after him? 200.193.98.181 01:45, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The See also section has a link to Benz (unit). --Jtir 21:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Boxer Engine[edit]

The article states that the boxer engine "... continues to be the design principle for high performance engines used in motorsports"

Evidence would suggest this isn't true. No major category of motorsport uses the boxer engine as the dominant engine format. Renault stopped using a wide angled V engine in F1 recently because it failed to achieve the performance & reliability narrower angled V configurations were achieving.

--210.185.65.178 01:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Is benzene named after this guy??[edit]

???? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.199.163.158 (talkcontribs) 02:34, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Did you read benzene? --Jtir 21:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

translations of titles in the References section[edit]

The best sources on Benz seem to be in German. I have added three and translated the titles as well as I can. Could someone take a look at these translations? --Jtir 21:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find any English language bios other than ones written for young adults. Can anyone identify an authoritative bio? --Jtir 15:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

English translations of the German titles in Carl Benz (copied from User talk:LeaNder)[edit]

[Copied from User talk:LeaNder.] --Jtir 17:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi, could you review my English translations of the German titles in the References section of Carl Benz? (I used babelfish and common sense, so it won't hurt my feelings if you correct them.) Also, there is a discussion regarding the spelling of his name (Carl or Karl) at Talk:Carl Benz. Could you offer any insights or sources (e.g. an authoritative bio)? The article needs more citations, and the best sources seem to be in German. --Jtir 18:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Ooops, somehow I would spell it Carl but I never thought about it. But the German Wiki's no doubt have. He seems to have changed the initial consonant, which is not really surprising. It was chic in the nineteenth century over here to Latinize family names. Maybe that's the larger influence for the change. "K" is "C" in Latin. But this is simply from the top of my head. There could be another reason:

Something else surfaces, if you google "Karl Benz". There was a head of a Nazi district with the same name. But strictly he seems to have used "C" for his firm already in 1906. On the German page they talk abut French influence, and that Karlsruhe was spelled Carlsruhe in the late 19th century. I do not completely trust that, since the article on Karlsruhe does not show a trace of this. Maybe it was simply a fashion? If it was slightly more West and part of the Alsace, I would trust that much more than I do now. You give me a little time to check that, and then I can no doubt look at the text. On first sight it looked fine to me. But I only read a tiny little part. I have much to do this week, but in the evening maybe I have a little time to take a closer look.

"German titles in the reference section" Absolutely perfect. Lebensfahrt is a not so common coinage. It combines life and drive/journey/ride, so it would take much pondering to get closer than you already are. What you are looking for is a combination that suggests Life as a ride a drive (association: car driving) ... LeaNder 14:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


A real fast translation of the Karl - Carl section on Wiki-German [2]:

“The spelling of the name of Benz even today causes confusion. What to one city is its Karl Benz Place, is to the one next to it its Carl Benz School. The automobile pioneer himself was the source for this orthographic confusion. In the birth register of Muehlheim [a quarter of Karlsruhe] he is listed on November 25, 1844 as Karl Friedrich Michael. In 1860 he enrolled at the Polytechnicum in Karlruhe as Karl Benz. And on his first patent specification in 1880 one reads: Karl Benz at Mannheim. At the end of the nineteenth century French spelling was the fashion, Karlsruhe now was named for the world Carlsruhe, and Karl Benz form now on signed with Carl Benz. The next patent specification of 1882 is made out to Carl Benz in Mannheim. And his firm operated under the name Carl Benz und Soehne KG. [Carl Benz & sons; KG = limited partnership with a limited liability company as general partner]

Thus for both C- and K-fractions among the savants in language [slightly old fashioned term for linguist] Benz himself offered good reasons for both variants; thus none of both is “properly false". The DaimlerChysler AG, has decided to use the spelling “K” as the non-ambigous and historical version. At least the Generallandesarchiv [general archive of the state, Karlsruhe was the former capital of Baden; now Baden-Wuerttemberg] acknowledges this variant based on the entry in the baptismal register."

Example the foundation at his historical house spells him with "K" in the name of the foundation, while it is situated at the Dr Carl Benz Platz (place) in Benz former house in Ladenburg. [3]

Two questions: Would German name law have allowed to use the more fashionable "C" variant? Or did he at one point change the spelling. Who holds the Karl Benz records?

I contacted a specialist concerning the first question. And I misread the German entry slightly yesterday. But I still mistrust the now slightly, that is I can't imagine that e.g. the French, Italians, English did spell Karlsruhe with "K" before and in the late nineteenth century changed it to "C". But I completely surrender to the French fasion, although I know that due to the huge impact of historical studies there was a "polite" trend too to Latinize family names. Of course both languages are related.

Jtir, give me a few days concerning the other point we discussed, will you?80.135.209.39 12:07, 19 June 2007 (UTC) Sorry forgot to sign in.LeaNder 12:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks for translating that section of the German version. That is a very balanced discussion. We could add such a paragraph, if editors like, although not without verifiable sources. AFAICT, the German article is essentially unsourced. I didn't know there was a "fashion" for changing "K" to "C". Is this common knowledge among Germans? I would like to mention it in the article, if there is a verifiable source. And the "Example" is a very good one.
Since we have primary sources for both variants, I have changed the lead and the associated note. I have dropped any mention of his "changing" his name. I am guessing that his "legal name" remained Karl throughout his life. --Jtir 19:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

If you will return the article to the spelling of the personal name as it stood before your change, back to Karl Benz, I will write a section on the spelling issue within a few days. The issue can be handled better in another way -- rather than to make the introduction to the article confusing. The other places you changed the name need to be cleaned up also. 83d40m 00:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Based on previous experience, if name variants are not addressed in the lead section, editors will forever be questioning the name. I have generally handled name variants with a note link immediately after the name in the the lead. Here are some examples:
A paragraph in the article can go into more detail than a note, but the note needs to be sufficiently well sourced that editors (and readers) can easily understand the variants without reading the whole article. --Jtir 12:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Jtir, I don't want to dive into this deeper, that is there is a new thesis on the code of the German law concerning names. But plainly I do not think that Karl Benz was treated like the average citizen, I assume he had quite a bit of artistic freedom to spell his name any way he liked. As to C/K spellings, yes that is somehow a fashion feature. I checked on a German site were you find the variant Carl/Karl handled as the same name around 1890. They have a old source for names were you find "C" spellings already in the 16c.. Not with Karl but with Klara/Clara and others. The only person I would ultimately trust on this issue are the ancestors who seem to hold, what we call in Germany the estate "Nachlass" which has a sub-meaning over here for only the papers left. If he ever changed the name officially, which I doubt, that would be the only reliable source. I subsume that later biographers might have had access to these private archives. I can check if one of them can be traced over here. And than I give up on this issue. LeaNder 12:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. You have been very helpful already. Your comment re Klara/Clara led me into the realm of genealogical research. This page shows what appears to be modern genealogical usage: "Klara (Clara) Weidemann" and "Karl (Carl) Gustav Weidemann". This site allows searches for names.
I agree however, that an authoritative bio and his autobio would be the best sources. --Jtir 17:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the author of the autobiography, first printed in 1925, is Carl Benz. I got a message today from the DaimlerCrysler, Communications -- Heritage PR, Dr. Josef Ernst. Apart from the whole confusion he writes we have two sets of facts: We have the birth certificate on one hand telling us that his name is spelled Karl, but he always signed with Carl. So there you go. He thinks that in the end Carl may well win out. And considering the evidence it should. It's the way he wrote his name, and thus probably wanted his name written. LeaNder 22:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry: "but he always signed with Carl" later in his life and used Carl for his firm. I decided to order the book concerning the laws. After I got a message, I do not trust completely - it conflicts with other data in my head - that only in 1902 there was a law concerning first names. 80.135.248.171 10:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info from Dr. Ernst and for confirming the name he used for his autobiography. Did you look at a copy or is that fact from Dr. Ernst? --Jtir 19:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Dr. Ernst did not mention the autobiography. He acknowleded that it is a much discussed issue obviously, but that there are two sets of data. On one side birth certificate and on the other his own use. I think this is the crucial point.

I did contact the publisher [slightly complicated post WWII history], and the archives of the first publication do not seem to have survived the war. You can check the German university library system yourself here [4] NOTE you have to enter Benz, Carl otherwise you won't get results. If you check Germany all university library systems are marked. It looks as if his biography was first published in 1925. The author's name is Carl Benz, as you can find out yourself. I have no time to read the whole discussion on this site. But yes, I think this could be considered as evidence, it is part of the evidence for his own use. Again there are two sets of evidence:

legal - birth certificate, baptismal register [I got a message which again I do not trust completely, that only in 1901 there was a law concerning first names. Would that mean if he had used "Carl" before he could have continued its use without any further "legal" problems? [if somebody like Carl Benz had these problems at all] What exactly was specified by the law? I ordered the thesis anyway, but that will take time.

personal use - he used "Carl" for his firm and seems to have signed with Carl, this may well be the reason why his biography was published under "Carl Benz" vs. Karl. What we do not know is at what time did he shift to Carl, see "legal evidence". Or do we know?`

Anyway I decided for myself to use "Carl" from now on, since this seems what he would have wanted me to use. LeaNder 14:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the excellent link (I have bookmarked it.) and for the search tip. I can see the German libraries use "Carl Benz". I favor this name for the article. --Jtir 12:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Karl Benz article name and spellings in it changed to Carl[edit]

[Copied from User talk:Jtir to maintain context.] --Jtir 20:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I notice that you have changed the article on Karl Benz to Carl Benz and am requesting that you return the article to its former title. This issue was discussed among many editors several years ago and resolved to use Karl as the spelling of the first name. I am providing a good deal of discussion below for you to realize why it was set as Karl and why of all of the many references to him in this encylopedia conform to that spelling.

  1. Benz's last home, at Ladenburg, is used as the headquarters of the Gottlieb Daimler & '''Karl''' Benz Foundation, with many annual events held there.
  2. Karl vs. Carl: Two spellings of Benz's first name can be found in places or institutions named after him. All of the official municipal registries show, Karl, such as on Benz's birth registration, his entry to the Polytechnikum, and his first patent (1879). At the end of the 19th century, however, the French spelling of names came into fashion in Germany and it seems that even Benz began to use, Carl, as seen in his 1882 patent or the Ladenburg company Benz Sons. At least, it was recorded as such—so Benz may have used both forms—or, perhaps the entries were made by others following the vogue. The German Orthographic Reform of 1901 generally replaced use of the French spelling, Carl, with the former German spelling convention, Karl, and DaimlerChrysler has adopted the use of the birth name spelling, using Karl Benz.

Since Karl Benz has been the convention used in Wikipedia for many years based upon the reasons cited above, please revert your change rather than beginning a protracted discussion and process regarding an issue that was settled several years ago. 83d40m 19:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a difficult case, as both variants are commonly used. The Wikipedia:Naming conventions say that the article name should be "... what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize ...". I'm not sure what English speakers would use. I have two English language bios — one uses Carl and one uses Karl. BTW, the name in the lead does not need to match the name of the article (WP:MOSBIO#Names).
If this is the discussion "among many editors several years ago", the consensus seemed to favor Carl. Is there another discussion you could refer me to?
You have quoted info that was removed from the Trivia section and that is essentially unsourced. Do you know of any sources that could be used to verify the spelling on his birth registration and on his application to enter the Polytechnikum? (German language would be fine. I haven't been able to find a definitive bio in English.) A source saying when, why, and how he changed his name for Karl to Carl would also be very useful.
--Jtir 20:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Please provide evidence that his name was changed from Karl to Carl by Karl Benz. Using a foreign spelling convention that is in vogue, or having someone else use it is not changing one's name. You want to make the change and Wikipedia rules put the burden upon you to provide evidence that would overcome the use of Karl by the authorities and successors noted above... please remember that your change was made without any sources being cited regarding a change of his name from his birth registration. This is not a new article being built from a stub. It is a long, detailed article to which many editors have made contributions and there are many crossreferences to this article. Several years of the use of Karl Benz in Wikipedia would reflect common acceptance. The sources provided at the time, resolved the discussion and it was left to stand without objection. One cannot make a change without justification -- and then demand justification to change it back. Since he was German, why would you want to use the French variant for spelling after the German authorities even asserted a reversion to German spellings? Why do you think the foundation that occupies his last residence uses Karl? Why do you think Daimer-Benz has the discussion on their own site that explains that they have adopted Karl? 83d40m 22:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

This is the evidence I have so far that he changed his name. Both sources are in the article (at the end).
I would very much like your help figuring this out. Could you check my English translations of the German titles in the References section at the end of the article?
--Jtir 01:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Ironically, at the following urls,

http://www.automuseum-ladenburg.de/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=19

http://www.automuseum-ladenburg.de/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=20

among the items on display at the museum you are using as justification, the two official certificates on display including the December 4, 1914 certificate awarding his honorary doctorate are to Karl Benz – these were presented to him in his lifetime, do you really think an incorrect spelling would be used for certificates presented to him to honor him? On the same page of the museum site is a photograph identified as from 1870 and below which Berta Ringer and Karl Benz are identified even though the museum makes a second label just below it with the spelling differing! I think a copy of the original honorary doctorate ought to be uploaded to Wikipedia and displayed in the Wikimedia Commons as a media resource available to our readers for evidence of the spelling of his name used by Karl Benz from his birth registration and throughout his life. What he named a business is not his personal name, and there was a reason to make a distinction between one business and another. No official documents for Karl Benz use the French spelling variant. The only successor of Daimler-Benz has an extensive biography on-line and on it they discuss this issue and state that they have adopted the use of Karl. The foundation formed in their last home, where Berta Ringer Benz died in the 1940s uses Karl. I do not think there is any remaining question about how we ought to spell Karl Benz for our article and it should be laid to rest, again. 83d40m 12:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The Mercedes-Benz site history can be difficult to locate, you should read, http://www.mbusa.com/heritage/karl-benz.do -- which is available through the USA link. 83d40m 22:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. I have added all of them to the article (in the External links section). It is difficult to read, but I translated the other award is "Baden State medal in gold". What do you think? I believe these documents are in the public domain, so they can be uploaded to Commons. The photo of the building looks modern, so it is probably copyrighted. It is too bad they don't have a higher resolution.
As you note, the Auto Museum site is very consistent in using Carl, even to the point of misrepresenting the spelling of his name on his honorary doctorate, which uses Karl.
AFAICT, the 1886 patent was awarded to "Benz & Co.", with no mention of his first name.
We still don't have a verifiable source for his full birth name or a sourced explanation of the change to Carl. This bio simply says that he and his son started a company called "Carl Benz Sohne" without explaining the name change. --Jtir 11:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
--Jtir 11:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The bio published by Mercedes-Benz says that Karl Benz and his son started a company called Carl Benz Sohne and the other museum did not create the honorary degree... so they could not misrepresent the name that was hand written on it (Karl); born as Karl, married as Karl, honorary degree near the end of his life as Karl -- the point seems to be that the personal name always was Karl and that it was not "changed" because a business was created with a French version of the spelling to make a difference from other businesses -- it seems instead, that you need to provide a verifiable source of any name change from Karl Benz. At the museums in his own house and at Mercedes-Benz the name is spelled Karl Benz -- but you want WP to use Carl just for his personal article? Why don't you make an article for the museum you are using for justification and generate the debate there... it would be more approptiate for a discussion about a spelling difference used in a business whose building recently was turned into a museum about the business that was run out of it.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.196.169.194 (talkcontribs) 17:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I apologize for not writing more clearly. The honorary doctorate is a primary source, and the museum describes the document inaccurately. I understand your frustration with how long careful research takes. If research were easy, we would all be scholars. I have previous experience with accurately understanding the name of a biographical subject from having worked on Emmy Noether. Fortunately, there is an excellent web site showing her name in her own handwriting and a biography by her nephew. --Jtir 19:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Mercedes-Benz has stated that they have adopted the use of the spelling, Karl Benz. That implies that they have a reason for that decision. Instead of retracing many paths and reinventing the wheel so to speak, I suggest you contact them using their site connection for questions, and explain your dilemma (it is not mine, I have never used any other spelling for the personal name of Karl Benz) and ask why they use Karl Benz? If their answer fails to satisfy you, contact the foundation that maintains his last home which was occupied by members of the family until it became public property in the 1970s and subsequently turned into a museum for the Gottlieb Daimler and Karl Benz Foundation. It is not likely that either organization made an arbitrary decision about the spelling. The resources available to Mercedes-Benz are formidable, compared to yours, and they have a good reason for being correct about this issue. 83d40m 23:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

bibrecs for Benz's autobiography[edit]

Although the 2001 edition of his autobiography shows Carl Benz on the cover, and the German National Library catalogs it under Carl Benz,
the full bibrec shows "/ Karl Benz" after the title. --Jtir 10:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

           Titel: Lebensfahrt eines deutschen Erfinders : meine Erinnerungen / Karl Benz
       Verfasser: Benz, Carl
         Ausgabe: Genehmigte Lizenzausg.
        Verleger: München ; Berlin : Koehler und Amelang
Erscheinungsjahr: 2001
   Umfang/Format: 139 S. : Ill., graph. Darst. ; 21 cm
            ISBN: 3-7338-0302-7
   Einband/Preis: Pp. : DM 29.80
    Schlagwörter: Benz, Carl  ;  Autobiographie
                  31.16p; 10.12p; XA-DE
      Sachgruppe: 36 Energie-, Maschinen-, Fertigungstechnik
Call #  AN (Benz) (Benz, C. Lebensfahrt eines deutschen Erfinders)
Author  Benz, Carl Friedrich, 1844-1929.
Title   Lebensfahrt eines deutschen erfinders; erinnerungen eines achtzigjahrigen.
Imprint Leipzig, Koehler & Amelang [c1925]
           Titel: Lebensfahrt eines deutschen Erfinders : Erinnergn e. Achtzigjährigen [1844/1924] / Carl Benz
       Verfasser: Benz, Carl
        Verleger: Leipzig : Koehler & Amelang
Erscheinungsjahr: 1925
   Umfang/Format: VIII, 151 S. : mit Abb., mehr. Taf. ; 8
   Einband/Preis: Lw. : 8.-

Benz papers at the DaimlerChrysler Classic Konzernarchiv[edit]

DaimlerChrysler seems to have a large archive, including documents related to Benz. (The link seems to be broken.) --Jtir 19:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

DaimlerChrysler Classic Konzernarchiv

"The Konzernarchiv ... holds the private papers of many automobile pioneers, including the diaries and papers of Maybach, Daimler, Benz, Jellinek, and many others, ..."

DaimlerChrysler AG
Konzernarchiv und Dokumentation
HPC G 328
70546 Stuttgart
Telephone: (0711) 172-3170
Fax: (0711) 175-3163
E-mail: petra.secunde@daimlerchrysler.com
Web site: www.daimlerchrysler.com/history
Contact: Dr. Harry Niemann
Business hours: 9:00 a.m.-5:00 p.m. Mon-Fri.

Finding aid:

Harry Niemann, ed., Das Mercedes-Benz Archiv: Archivführer (Stuttgart, 1993).
"Das Mercedes-Benz Archiv: Archivführer"
Mercedes-Benz Museum Archiv (Hrsg.) Motorbuch Verlag: Stuttgart,
1993 1. Aufl. 208 S., 108 Abb., davon 20 in Farbe
ISBN 3-613-01553-6
(The Mercedes-Benz Archives: An Archives Guide)

Returned title to Karl Benz[edit]

After waiting for a reasonable amount of time following my request for the editor who had changed the title of this article to reverse his renaming of the title, I have returned the title of the article to the previous spelling for the personal name of Karl Benz.83d40m 00:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

moved note related to the Karl Benz article here[edit]

Please familiarize yourself with the WP policy on Wikipedia:Consensus before continuing. --Jtir 12:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

This is what I brought up with you some time ago. You changed a page that existed for a long time after a discussion regarding the spelling and have never addressed that. A return to the previous title was requested and you ignored it. You have ignored enough communications that I decided to proceed with the reversal. Consensus is appropriate only regarding issues that do not relate to verifable facts. There was consensus that the world was flat -- until the fact that it was not, was establised. How long did it take for that to become the conventional view among the majority of the population of the Earth? Generations, perhaps? You seem more concerned with having your edit retained than having Wikipedia present the correct information. Others have put a great deal of time into this article, it was a shambles when I began to make corrections that consumed a great deal of time to bring the article up to the standards of an encyclopedia. Many errors had to be corrected. Several others have made contributions in the interium. Variants of the spelling of names occurs in many languages, because it was a vogue to use French spellings at one time and because Karl Benz used a variant to create a business in a town to which he moved toward the end of his life, that he wanted to have remain distinct from his other businesses and which he closed down in his lifetime, and the fact that someone many years later has purchased the building in which that business operated and opened a "museum" as a profitable business -- without the sanction of the family or the sucessors to the various businesses founded by Karl Benz -- fails to meet standards for authenticity compared to the Mercedes-Benz Museum. It is the sucessor of the corporation on which Karl Benz remained a director until the day he died, and which after establishing a library and an archive in the 1930s, has created a museum that displays the product of all of that research. Aside from cutting and pasting material from their site, you have not sought any information from this most authoritative archival source, although I have directed you there by providing a link. I have no desire to enter into a war over the title of this article -- the facts are laid out for all to read and come to an opinion regarding the name of Karl Friedrich Michael Vaillant -> Karl Friedrich Benz -> Dr. Ing. h. c. Karl Benz and to understand the issue of the will for dominance of a personal preference over the factual data -- including the tombstone that over which, doubtless, the family would have clamored for the correct spelling -- if a mistake had been made! 83d40m 23:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

entire discussion posted and saved, missing ?[edit]

The entire discussion I posted here regarding why I changed the title to the article back to Karl Benz is missing from display here. handk 20:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

.......... here is a copy:

Title returned again to Karl Benz[edit]

This article is about the person, Karl Benz, not about his businesses, per se, so I have returned the title to Karl Benz again. An esoteric discussion about the use of a French spelling of his first name as it was used for a minor company that he founded and left to his sons, C. Benz Söhne, should be the topic of a separate article if necessary for satisfaction of the few who believe that the choice of another capital letter for his first name should drive the spelling of the article. If it is important to focus upon the separate company with a variant spelling for the first letter of the first name, make an article on it, no one denies that it existed. No matter how widely the variant spelling is used because of the business in Ladenburg, it is clear that this was a variant used deliberately only to establish a difference between two companies existing at the same time. This is a minor issue, suitable for a trivia section. Every reference to Karl Benz in WP is to Karl -- only the title to this article has been changed now, senselessly, even over objections, long standing use, and thousands of copies of the article, as Karl Benz, into other publications around the world. It only makes sense to keep with the spelling that is on the birth records, the education records, the family tombstone, and by the corporation that still lives on in an unbroken link to Karl Benz -- or provide a copy of a binding and legal name-changing court order issued in his lifetime that we can post as our reason. Changing all of the incidents of the name in WP is defined as the duty of the person who makes the change in WP. I think this is a simple solution that can bring this issue to a close. handk 20:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


'Handk', I am not an expert on Karl Benz, but you write: the variant spelling is used because of the business in Ladenburg, 'it is clear' that this was a variant used deliberately only to establish a difference between two companies existing at the same time.

Let's see what the German's tell us: The business of Karl Benz
1871: "Eisengießerei und mechanische Werkstätte" = iron foundry and mechanical workshop
1982: as a result of a high demand of money (design and development) his bank demands conversion into a stock corporation, name is changed to: :"Gasmotorenfabrik in Mannheim" = Gas motors factory Mannheim. Benz leaves factory a year later to found his own factory.
1883 Benz & Co. Rheinische Gasmotorenfabrik Mannheim“ Benz and Partners Rhenish Gas motor factory, Mannheim.
1899 turned into stock company
1903 Karlchen = little Carl left the company. It had turned into one of the biggest car companies in the world. (I am no expert and repeat the German authors)
1906 he founds; Carl Benz Söhne - Carl Benz and Sons
1926 Benz and Partners Rhenish Gas motor factory, Mannheim. merged with into Daimler Motor Company into the Daimler Benz stock corporation.
Below the sentence reads in a fast translation:
The construction engineer Gottfried Daimler, who with his friend Wilhelm Maybach in 1905 had constructed the first motorcycle with column wheels, supporting wheels. They showed their first prototype in 1885 in Cannstadt.* He died in 1900. He never met Benz personally.

Cannstadt seems to offically have changed between Kannstadt and Cannstadt. A sign for rather liberal customs before the spelling reform? Baden History Wiki Germany: Baden 19 century

I had a look at the thesis on German name laws, a very cursorily one, admittedly. It's easy and not easy at the same time, since there were no separate regulations concerning first names, the more difficult part law students learned and learn is that the first name is an integral part of the family name, obviously. And the non-regulation opens up a field of questions. One could feel that the custom was well established and agreed on, so there was no need of regulations? But apart from an interesting excursion into Germanic laws and their own form of water over the the head pouring / baptism, with the accompanying law, that once the child was given its name by the family - a name e.g Gott-lieb = God - beloved - the child could not be given away anymore and it could not be killed, the custom of alternative C - K spellings was well established going back to the 15 century, if I remember correctly, from another source. It does feel very familiar to me, form older texts.

So maybe a look in the first orthographical reform bible (Duden)of German spelling would show us something about the recorded customs concerning names? I have a look at that, when I pass the places.. Problem, about the Duden (monopoly) is that I am personally a Wahrig supporter [Bertelsmann]. Wahrig like Webster adds the occasional name, and its etymology, [and you do not need to open the special etymological book, if that is something you are always interested in when looking up a word.] So I think it might be a superfluous way, but let's see. Concerning the motive of wanting to differentiate between his businesses by using his variant spelling, there is no evidence for your thesis. LeaNder 15:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


There are several issues I don't understand:
  • The German wiki title is Carl Benz. Obviously, at least one person here is considering himself as much better expert in that field than the whole German WP community.
  • I was born in the same place than Carl Benz, a branch my family had been living in that district for generations. Then I moved away from there, but again, the elementary school where I went to was called "Carl Benz Schule". In a nearby place, there is a "Carl Benz" car museum. Nobody in the whole region would ever consider spelling it otherwise.
  • I think C.B. should have the right to decide himself on how he wants to be named/written. He decided it is "Carl".
  • Please note that an entry of the municipal register at that time should not be taken too strict: At least half of my grandfather's brothers (he had about a dozen) had a different spelling of their family name, i.e., at their birth, their father's name was spelled differently every other year.)
  • If a German scientist emigrates to the U.S., he becomes an "American (German born) scientist". If a singer, actor or other artist abandons his birth name in favour of a chosen one, would you always check the registers for an entry about that, and use its birth name otherwise? I am sure there are uncountable instances of where such an entry does not exist, and yet everybody uses the name according to the choice of its owner. Changing the entry in the registers is an administrative formality, and whether C.B. undertook the procedure or not (consider also the circumstances of life at that time) does not change reality.
  • Even if it isn't either a "legal" argument, consider again the google search hits given earlier: 3 million vs 3000! And, consider the number of expressed opinions on this talk page concerning the respective choice: please count... The reverts of the page name to "K..." NEVER were concensus, they had ALWAYS be made AGAINST concensus and always have been heavily criticized afterwards. — MFH:Talk 13:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Note added: search results on familysearch.org do show that the spelling in the registers was "Carl", cf. e.g. this link: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/igi/pedigree_view.asp?recid=100116588985&spouseid=100116588988&lds=1&region=8&frompage=1 (marriage) and this link: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/search/igi/pedigree_view.asp?recid=100127545601&spouseid=&familyid=15041313&lds=1&region=8&frompage=1 (birth of Eugen Benz) (hoping that these links work... else do the search anew).

Nazi stamp 1936 - Karl Benz[edit]

Karl Benz (1936) This made me look, what is happening here. gone LeaNder 15:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Daimler vs Benz on patent[edit]

Here, it says that Benz acquired a patent first, but on the Internal Combustion Engine page, it is said otherwise. Could someone get a source on that and clear both pages up? If this belongs in the Internal Combustion Engine discussion page, please move it there. 71.34.235.128 (talk) 20:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

karl benz invented the car —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.241.4 (talk) 10:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

20th Century Limited[edit]

Two things need fact-checking: "'faster than any plane, train, or automobile' at the time" & "a record not exceeded for ten years". The second is at least half true; this confirms the Blitzen Benz was fastest until 1919, but she broke her own record in 1914, so the article's claim is wrong. I can't figure out how to correct it without it getting complicated, so if somebody can.... Trekphiler (talk) 10:22, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Added pic again[edit]

I've added the picture I added last time, it was removed. If there is any reason for having the other picture, put it here. I think the one I just added is better.

DineshAdv (talk) 00:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

..............

Personal agenda?[edit]

The image you've put on Automobile is, of what can only be described as of a pathetic quality, - 350 × 258 pixels, compared to the superior 2,048 × 1,536 pixels of the image before it. Yet you call it a "better quality image". So how do you define quality exactly??? Neither of the pictures are blurred or poorly focused, or anything else. So how is the previous picture of a poorer quality?

Also, your picture is described as "Photograph of the original Benz Patent Motorwagon...". Well, to be perfectly honest, it doesn't look much like a photograph at all. To me, it looks very much like a drawing. Now, just to check I wasn't going crazy, I felt compelled ask other peoples' opinion, and I was pleased to hear that they agreed with me on this matter. The white background doesn't suggest it is a photograph, well, unless it was for an advert. I don’t know, maybe they were thinking of photoshopping it into a nice background?

I understand that the "photograph" would be in black and white, but what really draws my attention is the extreme white for the highlights, and the extreme black mostly everywhere else on the vehicle - especially the white highlights on the wheels and the vertical steering tiller thing. (Sorry about the lack of technical language.)

Now I'm not claiming that the picture isn't a photograph, I'm just saying that I don't think that it is, and what's more, I think that it is of a worse quality. Please don't replace better pictures with worse ones.


Now to your removal of the words

"– a shortened form of 'motor car' (which in itself is widely believed to be derived from 'motorized carriage' - as in the Daimler Motorized Carriage)[citation needed]".

I'm not quite sure as to why you chose to remove these words, it simply detracts from the article. In the edit summary, where I undid your first removal of these words, I clearly said "See talk page." If you had taken the time to see the talk page, you would have seen the reason why I undid your edit. Please don't remove these words again (which I won't replace until you have sufficient time to respond to this), because it isn't helpful. Here is a link to the talk page.


Now I leave it to you to respond... and hopefully not make more unnecessary, and frankly, unhelpful edits.

DineshAdv (talk) 22:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

.................

Welcome Dinesh Adv

I have moved your discussion here because it is related to this article. Please respond here if necessary. I will be as brief as possible. I do not engage in edit wars and semantic debates. I attempt to avoid issues that smack of personal agendas by going around them – leaving the wars to those who prefer to deal with conflicts among editors or have more time to spend on the administration of the edits. I prefer to spend my time editing and, if there are differences of opinions, seeking consensus among editors who care to make the articles the best we can.

I am responding because I am one of several editors who have been working on this article for quite some time and it has taken much work to make it what it is today. It is a favorite of vandals and we who contribute to the article frequently, encounter them often -- so the response to your contributions may have been misinterpreted.

I see that you have been contributing edits and images to Wikipedia articles for a few months now (2 December 2007 - first edit). I also notice that you are using Dinesh Adv.ani Design as a signature on images you have up-loaded. That signature seems rather similar to a commercial id on the internet, which can be quite co-incidental and quite unrelated. If there is a personal agenda involved in placing images that do not enhance the articles we are editing for our readers, generally they are quickly reverted, replaced, or removed. If an image enhances the article, there is no harm in someone receiving credit if it is due -- and there is no violation of the rights of others.

I have been an editor of Wikipedia for many years, only taking a signature at the requirement of another editor with whom I wished to communicate -- who only allowed discussion with registered editors. I have begun to understand that purpose. I believe that I have good standing and I notice that I am evaluated as reliable by some of the screening devices used by administrators.

The image you prefer to replace with one of your own making is historical and very clearly presents the subject when reading the article, complying with the principles of good design. The one you wish to replace it with, is indecipherable unless magnified to a full screen view. At normal viewing size in the article, neither the human figure nor the machine in your preferred image can be distinguished because they overlap. The effect, when your preferred image is inserted, is a waste of the space taken up by the poor image and the loss of an image that clearly conveys information to our readers in our normal format, causing the caliber of the article to be diminished significantly.

You have chosen to place this image in many places. I have left your image in lists that rarely are accessed, even in one place where it is redundant, but I believe that we should strive to provide the best images available to us to accompany an article as it is being read -- as it would be presented in an encyclopedia -- only resorting to images that must be enlarged when no other option is available.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with your image when greatly blown up and I am sure you are quite proud of it – but it is not effective in the article and we already have quite effective images for the article that should not be replaced unless there is a distinct advantage in changing them.

An economy of words is just as important for an article and introducing extraneous debates about non-standard terms or tangential discussions leads to confusion among readers seeking information from what should be a reputable source. ----- 83d40m (talk) 02:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)]

I am surprised to see you move this discussion to this talk page, I would have thought that it had more to do with the Automobile page, because it is not just about the picture but also the change of words on the page.
I didn't think you would have been able to convince me about the picture, but with the argument you have now put forward I can clearly see you are right, - the picture isn't as clear as your one when confined to the small space on the page, although I wouldn't go to the extent of saying it causes "the caliber of the article to be diminished significantly." My apologies for this - although I am still adamant that it doesn't look like a photograph at all.
Your response, doesn't explain the change of words (in the Automobile article) on the origins of the word 'car'. That would be helpful. Although the words which were on the article had no references, they are the best that can be put there for now, until the origins have been worked out by the people on the talk page.
Also, please accept my apologies on "and hopefully not make more unnecessary, and frankly, unhelpful edits", because that in itself was unnecessary and unhelpful.
DineshAdv (talk) 11:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I intended the last paragraph to address the edit -- eliminating further and extraneous discussion of car -- that seemed only to protract and confuse the tangential issue without adding any clarification beyond the exiting text. In articles, an economy of words to explain and educate is what we are working together to provide to our readers.

On talk pages it is best to learn to edit yourself to eliminate any comments to other editors that are personal and for which you may have to provide an apology -- reread your comments, consider how they could be interpreted, rewrite anything that could offend, assume good faith until proven otherwise, and you will be respected as an editor. -- 83d40m (talk) 21:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Siegfried Marcus[edit]

An Austrian Jew is the real inventor of the first modern Car! Fact! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.246.205.24 (talk) 11:19, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

http://www.viennareview.net/on-the-town/scenes-of-vienna/the-forgotten-inventor-of-the-motor-car

http://www.rokemneedlearts.com/carsindepth/wordpressblog/?p=5702 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.246.201.221 (talk) 11:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot build the first automobile in 1769 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.42.252.102 (talk) 06:49, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

split article into Karl Benz and Benz & Cie[edit]

When I search "Benz & Cie" a redirect send me here... I find that very strange. Isn't there anyone else who thinks there should really be two articles, one about Karl Benz and one about the car-brand Benz? Both the make and the inventor seem to me to be important enough to write separate articles about. This is the case with Bugatti/Ettore Bugatti, Delahaye/Emile Delahaye, De Dion-Bouton/Georges Bouton and many, many more in Wikipedia. Many foreign-language Wikipedias also have separate articles for people and their inventions. It would seem to me that this invention (and hence, this make of cars) is important enough to have its own page. Mark in wiki (talk) 13:51, 16 August 2014 (UTC)