Talk:Katyn massacre

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Merger proposal[edit]

Since this thread has been open for more than 30 days and a request has been made at WP:ANRFC I am closing this discussion as: MERGE. My reasons are as follows: 1) There seems to be strong, if not unanimous consensus that the Anti-Katyn article should not remain as a stand alone piece. 2) One editor said there was not anything worth merging but that does not preclude a merger outcome of this discussion as WP:MERGE says a "merger may be full or selective" and duplicate or irrelevant content may be discarded. 3) Those that feel that some or all of the content in Anti-Katyn should be included in Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919-1924) are welcome to place that content there but that action also does not preclude the merger of Anti-Katyn with this article which was clearly indicated by Binksternet and United States Man as their recommended course of action. (non-admin closure) KeithbobTalk 19:24, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should Anti-Katyń be merged into Katyn massacre? Binksternet (talk) 18:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


  • Merge. The Anti-Katyń concept is just a small part of the whole Katyn massacre topic. If the anti- concept is presented alone, it will need the whole massacre topic as context. The solution is to merge them. Binksternet (talk) 18:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Merge – Agreed that the concept is just a small part of the whole Katyn massacre topic and they should be merged into one article. United States Man (talk) 00:36, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment. This concept seems to fail notability, through the merge target should probably be an article on Katyn denial, rather than here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:45, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
  • The article is about instrumental usage of the Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24) in Soviet and Russian propaganda rather than about Katyń crime or "Katyń denial" (doesn't exist). It may be possibly merged with the "Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24)" or "Soviet propaganda regarding WWII" or "Russian propaganda regarding WWII" (both don't exist, Propaganda in the Soviet Union does).
  • Please help to develop the article using the Polish one pl:Anty-Katyń.

Xx236 (talk) 07:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Comment. There is nothing to merge here. The "article" is a random collection of sentences on the topic of Katyn denial. The "main idea" - some Russian politicians and pundits trying to "offset" the massacre with the deaths of Russian POWs in the previous war - is already given due weight in the "Polish-Russian relations" section (and in a much more concise manner, too). --illythr (talk) 19:48, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Answer to the comment - the "Polish-Russian relations" section doesn't inform about the Gorbachev's role. You yourself write is already given due weight and I agree - this article isn't the right place to continue the subject, it's 115,198 bytes long and still growing; But maybe the Revelations section should describe Gorbachev's action.Xx236 (talk) 08:41, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
The subject of the article isn't the topic of Katyn denial but the instrumental usage of Soviet POWs.
The anti-Katyń subject should be also included in the Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24) article.
If a subect is covered in several articles, it's rational to create one main article.
You understand Russian language texts about the alleged Polish crimes (what about the alleged Soviet crimes on Polish POWs?). Why don't you write a summary?Xx236 (talk) 07:30, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Other executions were carried out at the geographically distant Starobelsk and Ostashkov camps[edit]

I don't know about any such executions. The prisoners were transported elsewhere.Xx236 (talk) 08:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Churchill's reaction[edit]

I think there may be a slight error in the sentence that discusses Churchill's reaction. That sentence now reads, "In private, Churchill agreed that the atrocity was likely carried out by the Soviets. According to Edward Raczyński, Churchill admitted on April 15, 1943, during a conversation with General Sikorski: 'Alas, the German revelations are probably true. The Bolsheviks can be very cruel'".[58] The citation is to the Carlton book at page 105, which I do not have. What I do have is a copy of Edward Raczynski's war diaries, titled "In Allied London" and published in English in 1962. In that book, on page 141, Raczynski discusses the lunch he had with Churchill, Sikorski and Cadogan on April 15, 1943. He says that they discussed the dispute between Russia and Poland over frontiers, then says, "This conversation took place a day or two after the announcement in Berlin of the discovery of the graves at Katyn. We told him that we had concrete proof of the responsibility of the Soviet Commissariat of Internal Affairs. Churchill, without commenting himself, showed by his manner that he had no doubt of it. He remarked: 'The Bolsheviks can be very cruel.' He added, however, that their ruthlessness was a source of strength, and was to our advantage as far as destroying Germans was concerned." There is nothing further regarding this lunch. Given that Churchill appears to have intentionally avoided any explicit agreement with the proposition that the Russians were to blame, it seems an overstatement to say that Churchill "admitted" that "the Germans revelations are probably true." Does anyone have the Carlton book? Perhaps he cites some other source authored by Raczynski. If he cites "In Allied London" then I propose that the sentence be changed.

It's been a couple weeks and there's been no objection, so I went ahead and changed the sentence, and the citation. Drochtegang (talk) 19:04, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

German Bullets Found In Graves[edit]

should this be added — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mas2500 (talkcontribs) 22:56, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Does this article mention the Volodymyr-Volynskyi crime? If not - what is the connection? Why don't you edit any Holocaust article or Volodymyr-Volynskyi?Xx234 (talk) 10:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)