Talk:Kayastha

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Notable Kayasthas: Names removed[edit]

User:Sitush removed the following names form the list of notable Kayasthas. All very notable, all Kayasthas. Justification?

Sitush projects himself as an authority on the subject of castes of India.

Malaiya (talk) 02:15, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

WP:V. - Sitush (talk) 14:40, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

@Malaiya Now they have been included. BTW no one is an authority here, we all need references to prove or disprove our edits. No original research is to be done on wikipedia --का.शि.. Kayastha Shiromani , The Second. (talk) 10:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2014[edit]

Names of many prominent kayastha personalities has not been included. They are Amitabh Bachhan, Sonu Nigam, Shanti Swaroop Bhatnagar, Mukesh (playback singer), Jay Prakash Narayan, Rabindranath Tagore, Bal Thakrey, S.N.Bose, Jagdish Chandra Bose, Padmsree Sharda Sinha, Ravi Shankar Prasad, Shatrughan Sinha, Sri Aurobindo, Manna De. Bhartiya 88 (talk) 12:23, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

The requirements for inclusion are:-

  1. An article on enWikipedia
  2. A reliable source confirming that the individual is Kayastha

In addition, the Bachchan family, have specifically rejected membership of any castes and therefore are not included in any caste articles

So, lets split your list up:-

- Arjayay (talk) 12:49, 9 June 2014 (UTC)


OK - I have checked the sources and added Sonu Nigam and Ravi Shankar Prasad
I have removed Harivansh Rai Bachchan as per the note above, regarding the Bachcham family
I have removed Munshi Premchand, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and Subhas Chandra Bose as their only references were to Wikipedia and their articles do not even mention they are Kayastha
If you can find reliable sources for the names you have mentioned - or those I have removed, please add this information, including the detailed references, to their individual Wikipedia articles, before asking for their addition to this article. Arjayay (talk) 14:29, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Rabindranath Tagore was not a Kayasth, he was a brahmin. A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was not a Kayasth, he was a Suvarnavanik. Harivansh Rai Bachchan was a Kayastha. I have his autobiography.
  • People are born in a caste. Caste is a birth based classification. That is why it is termed a "jati" (or "zat" in Urdu). It is not a club that people can join and resign at will. Nobel laureate Toni Morrison called Bill Clinton "the first Black president", and Bill Clinton loved being called "the first Black president". But being "white" is by birth. A white can marry an black (Harivansh Rai Bachchan's second wife was a Khatri), but would still be white. Malaiya (talk) 23:21, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Ironic: Real Kayasthas excluded and non-Kayasthas included[edit]

There have been quite a few Kayasthas of distinction. Unfortunately most of them had been excluded for reasons that seem quite frivolous. A few are included now, but most are still excluded.

Which is indeed ironic because the editors of the article have insisted on including a non-Kayastha Raja Todarmal, well known to have been a Khatri. A groups that includes India's first president Dr. Rajendra Prasad, the best known Hindu monk of recent times Swami Vivekanada and a national revolutionary Subhas Chandra Bose does not need a really need a Mughal courtier, specially one who was certainly not a Kayasth.

Some of the oldest known references to Kayasthas are specifically excluded because they happened to have been Buddhist. On the other hand the article dwells quite a bit on supposed questionable descent from Brahmins. For all that the Kayasthas have achieved, it is not necessary at all to claim descent from a "higher" caste.

Some of the active editors like Sitush, are unfamiliar with the Indian society, and thus can hardly be blamed. However some of them like Ekdalian are apparently Indian and presumably Kayasth. That is ironic. One would expect them to know. Malaiya (talk) 00:59, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Malaiya, please note that there is NO intentional bias here. Statement(s) you want to incorporate must be reliably sourced and relevant, that's all. Regarding notables, a standard is being followed, that there should be valid references referring to them as Kayasthas. And I have not introduced the same. And for your information, there are other editors involved as well. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 07:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Todar Mal is mentioned as Kayastha in reliable sources, although there is another opinion as well. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 09:01, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Discussion on current version of this Article https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kayastha&oldid=618943617[edit]

Come discuss. Kayastha Shiromani, The Second. 08:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kayastha Shiromani II (talkcontribs)

Pros of this version:

1. Discusses the family tree and various sub-castes which were missing in the previous ones.

2. Enumerates some of the very prominent Kayastha like Kashmiri King Lalitaditya.

3. Draws authority from various religious sources as well as secular ones like Kalhana's Rajatarangini.

4. Gives authentic refs. to various books including Shloka no. and chapters.

5. Gives a general description of traditions and customs.

6. List of Kayastha much more elaborate and representative of the achievements.

7. Deals with various sub-groups different social and ethnic diversity within the Kayastha umbrella caste.

8. Better than previous version which was weakly written and lacked information and references about the caste.

9. Though it draws too much from myths yet this is very relevant as caste are derived so in India with not much scientific laws to guide such things.

Cons:

1. Looks much like mythological fiction at a few places.

2. Pro- Kayastha bent.

3. More emphasis should have been given to secular achievers such as Dr. JC Bose, Dr. SS Bhatnagar etc.

4. Too intent on promoting Kayasthas as Brahmins.

5. The section "other information" not written objectively.

6. Dead references.

Kayastha Shiromani, The Second. 08:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kayastha Shiromani II (talkcontribs)

[1] does not cite secondary sources for claims of Kayastha origins at the Puranas, Smritis and Shrutis. The referenced historical "Origins" and "History" of Kayasthas are removed. WP:RS are removed and non-RS like [2] and [3] are used. "Unfortunate case of the Kayasthas of Bengal" are pure WP:POV and WP:OR. "Prominent Kayasthas", "The Family Tree" and "Origin legends" are completely devoid any references.Redtigerxyz Talk 10:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Dear Sir, here is the reference. The Kayastha ethnology, an enquiry into the origin of the Chitraguptavansi and Chandrasenavansi Kayasthas, compiled by K. Prasad [Published 1877] http://books.google.co.in/books?id=AH0IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP9&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false --का.शि.. Kayastha Shiromani , The Second. (talk) 10:40, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I have reverted your massive addition yet again, in accordance with Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle
You were bold, and made a revision. That revision was then reverted. It is at that point that the discussion takes place, when we are back at the "original" version, not after you have repeated your change.
The version before your mass changes was 21 kilobytes and had 38 references (one reference for every 550 bytes). Your version has 48 kilobytes and 12 references - one reference for every 4000 bytes. You have, therefore, deleted 70% of the references and added vast amounts of totally unreferenced material.
Moreover, your version is not written in an encyclopedic style and does not comply to Wikipedia's manual of style and other policies
Changes should be made incrementally, not en-masse, as editors have no way of accepting some changes, and rejecting others, whilst they all need references to reliable, independent sources. - Arjayay (talk) 10:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

@Arajay.... firstly, this is not my version. It was one of the most stable versions on Kayastha. The reference provided exhaustive and most of them are with in the article itself like the one to various source books. See the pros and cons mentioned above. I am not to deny that it needs a little cleaning up but it certainly is a superior version to the last one. I have done this considering the massive edit warring in the last few days and it seems I too have involved my self too much... talk about intentions. --का.शि.. Kayastha Shiromani , The Second. (talk) 10:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

This is an utter travesty of an article. If you think it's acceptable I suggest you spend some time looking at how other articles are structured and sourced. WP:GA has a good list of examples. --NeilN talk to me 14:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 July 2014[edit]

Amitabh Bachchan who is the pioneer of hindi cinema is a Kayastha from Uttar Pradesh which is the hub of Kayatha community.

2601:9:1A80:977:B5FE:F46D:38F5:58EE (talk) 22:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done It is unclear exactly what you want to add and you have also provided no sources. --NeilN talk to me 22:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
For Bachchan, see User:Sitush/Common#Castelists. It would be a violation of WP:BLP. - Sitush (talk) 00:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 August 2014[edit]

I would like to request to change the population of Kayasthas to 10 million which is incorrectly given as 8 lacs at the end of this article under modern india subheading 203.110.84.194 (talk) 09:53, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 10:51, 14 August 2014 (UTC)