|WikiProject Ireland||(Rated Start-class, High-importance)|
The Town With Absolutely No History?
Famous people list.
I'm not much into sport, so I can't be sure, but I am a bit suspicious of the list of Killarney famous people that seems to be growing rapidly. Can anyone confirm if these people are worthy of inclusion. Also the writer and musician??--Dmol 14:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I included the names of the three rowers who all hail from Killarney and as recently as last weekend, all three were competing for Ireland in the third World Cup Regatta in Lucernce, Switzerland. Paul Griffin, who rowed for Ireland in the 2004 Olympic Games and finished 6th (as part of the Mens Lightweight Four) is certainly worthy of inclusion. I would also believe that as a World Championship rower for Ireland, Sean Casey is too worthy of inclusion. Cathal Moynihan is a rising star in Irish rowing and is almost certain to be selected for this year's World Rowing Championships. At least two of them, bar any injuries, will represent Ireland at the Beijing Olympic Games next year. I have included their achievements in the Sports section of the Killarney page. I'm new to wikipedia so I'm still learning how to provide references etc. but if anyone wants to verify the three rower's international standing, they should check the results of recent World Cup regattas (2005, 2006, 2007) on www.worldrowing.com. I too would query the writer and the musician, neither of whom I have ever heard of. Toshea1 10:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Can someone confirm that the Patrick O' Connor, Musician is famous enough to be listed on the people from Killarney list. Someone has added him again.--Dmol 22:13, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
There seems little point in persistently adding people to this list, when they are apparently not "famous" enough to merit a WP page of their own. Maintaining the accuracy of unlinked list entries quickly becomes a nightmare, since they presumably will become unfamous at some point, or maybe even die!! See WP:LIST for some guidance on lists. JXM 22:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I have trimmed the list right down, removing the 2 lesser known rowers. The olympiian should qualify in his own right, but the others will have to be more famous before they should be included. Removed the musician once again, as no-one has indicated exactly who he is and why he is supposed to be famous. Poet not famous and thus removed. I've left Seamus de Faoite as he is a published author, if anyone still feels he does not belong then feel free to removed him again.--Dmol 15:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I have (for the third time) removed Patrick OConnor from the list. If he is famous then add details of his fame. I have been asking for the last few months, and will consider all replacements of this name as vandalism unless fame is indicated.--Dmol 12:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
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The history section.
I have removed the following, for the reasons listed below.
.... Start of removed section...
In Killarney the solid earth on which we tread is linked with McCarthy Mór, the Herberts and the Brownes. According to John Aubrey's Brief Lives William Herbert was a servant to the House of Worcester 'a mad, fighting young fellow' who was arrested at Bristowe and shot the sheriff. He escaped through the marsh and made his way to France. There he distinguished himself with such valour that he was allowed back to England with the highest recommendation. He soon rose through the ranks of nobility and married Anne Parr, sister of the sixth and last wife of King Henry the Eighth. He was granted estates in Pembroke and in Kerry. 
McCarthy Mór was an old Irish chieftain, an overlord of lands of indeterminate extent especially in the Killarney, Kenmare and South Kerry regions. Donald McCarthy Mór had come to favour of the Crown and was created Earl of Clancare in 1588. He was buried in Muckross Abbey, Killarney, in 1600. Valentine Browne was a surveyor of lands and not only paid handsomely for his work but granted six and a half thousand acres of land in Kenmare as a bonus. McCarthy Mór had more land than any but he was short of cash and when he needed it badly he turned to Valentine Browne, the gainfully employed man. Valentine obliged but not before having the mortgage secured on two carefully surveyed estates. McCarthy Mór's luck was out and the return he expected didn't materialize and he lost his two estates to Valentine Browne.
Time passed and at a later date one of the Herberts got married to the last direct descendant of McCarthy Mór. The young couple had a son but shortly after his father died. His mother sent the boy to England to be educated and there he developed a love of all things to do with the Herberts, his maternal grandfather in particular. But then tragedy struck and the young man was killed off a horse in Putney Heath in London. It then came to light that he had done the strangest thing for someone so young. He had made a Will. The Will when read bequeathed everything he was heir to to his maternal grandfather. In this way the McCarthys lost the last of their lands. Now both the lands in the possession of the Brownes and the Herberts made them the landowners of note in Killarney but times were tough, especially on the Herberts and the visit of Queen Victoria and investments that went awry brought them to a pitch that they had to sell their estate at Muckross. In time too, with the new Land Acts coming into effect the Earls of Kenmare, as the Brownes had now become, sold their lands. Both the Herbert lands and the seat at Muckross House and the Earl of Kenmare lands and the seat at Killarney House were bought by the Bourne Vincents and the McShains,respectively. The new owners were generous Americans, philanthropists of a kind not known in Ireland, who gave their most valuable estates to the Irish State. They now form the most important part of Muckross Park.
. The history of tourism must be viewed against the constraints to and opportunities for its development. The constraints were historically threefold: lack of money and leisure time; lack of transport and accommodation and lack of appreciation of landscape.
The last surprises many and for a hint of how long the lack of appreciation of landscape lasted we turn to Daniel Defoe, author of Robinson Crusoe in 1719, who advised his readers that the Lake District in England was 'a forbidding place, best avoided.' Professor E H Gombrich traces the beginning of appreciation of beauty of landscape to the painters and singles out Altendorfer as the first to paint it for its own sake. He traces the adoption of this new attitude to the Romantic Movement in England.
Then there was the difficulty of travel to be overcome and before the coming of the railways only those who had horses of their own or who were near post houses could travel. In 1846 Isaac Slater found three hotels in Killarney and noted that each was a post house as well.
Just after the coming of the railways both Carter Hall and James Fraser tell us their thoughts on travel. Carter Hall on his trip around the Ring of Kerry advised It is a common and wise custom of those who make this tour, and are not pressed for time, to hire the carriage at the hotel in Killarney and continue with it "all the way round." It is absolutely marvellous what labour these mountain bred horses can get through "thinking nothing" of thirty miles for days together or even fifty miles in a single day  James Fraser tells us The first object of inquiry with strangers arriving in Killarney is naturally the hotels, of these there are three in the town and four in the vicinity of the town
Such feelings and thoughts haven't changed with time and will never change. Carter Hall had already passed Waterville, half way round the Ring and noted the Hartopp Arms and what is now The Butler Arms Hotel with great delight; for they were the only comforts he had come across in his travels. The Ring of Kerry is a hundred miles long and with horses able to go but half of it in a day such accommodation along the Ring was vital for the hoteliers in Killarney who promote such trips. These are the opportunities of tourism developing in connected places at once. The second opportunity in Killarney was noted with joy by James Fraser the diversity of hotels available to the traveller, which he described with great care. The Railway Hotel opposite the Railway Station; the Kenmare Arms and Hibernia which are on the main street and immediately opposite the church... the Victoria which is about a mile to the west of the town on the shores of the Lower Lake; the Lake View which is about the same distance to the east of the town and also on the shore of theLower Lake; the Muckross about two and a half miles away and near the Muckross Lake and the Torc which occupies an elevated site about a mile and a half from the town on the hill which rises immediately over the Lake Hotel  O'Sullivans and the Innisfallen were named by Carter Hall rather than the Hibernia and Torc but there was a few years between their descriptions. For a summary of Tourism Today please see the section under that heading.
.............End of removed section ..........
There is some good info here, but there are major problems with it. I've copied so that we can reach consensus regarding what should stay and how it should be presented. My issues are...
- The wording is not encyclopedic.
- Much of it reads like a personal essay.
- Many of the statements are subjective comments.
- Large sections are about the famous families in Killarney's history, and not specifically about Killarney itself. They deserve, or probably already have, their own articles.
- Quotes and paragraphs are given without context to the rest of the article.
Hi DMOL and any editor who may have an interest in this subject. May I apologise for not finding these comments from DMOL, as I am not familiar with the procedure. Here we are. I have seen comments on the talk page that say the tourism section is outdated and that the town appears to have no history (in Wikipedia) I agree and would say its layout is wrong in that tourism should be close to the beginning. I believe people from far away go to Wikepedia to learn something of Killarney's history including the history of its tourism.
DMOL makes the point regarding the wording not being encyclopedic. The wording is readable, I say. 'Much of it reads like a personal essay,' says he. Books have been written on the landed people and if some personal style shows in my section it is as a result of condensation while retaining clarity and readability. 'Many of the statements are subjective comments,' says he. Please clarify, says I. 'Many statements about famous families.....not about Killarney,' says DMOL. I leave this view to others to decide; for it seems to me that DMOL has an idea of Killarney as an entity that is totally different to mine.
The bewildering question for me is what Killarney are we talking about? It cannot be the present one; for my piece is about the historic one. I tried very hard to relate the past to the present. The tourist walking down the town or strolling in the Park or in a jaunting car will enjoy knowing how the Park came to be there. I say no more on that.
The history of tourism is, in my view, a hell of a sight better than the Tourism Today section. I wouldn't blink an eyelid if Killarney celebrated five hundred years of tourism rather than two hundred and fifty and got away with it - and brought people to town to celebrate it. That is what tourism is about; but it isn't what Wikipedia is about. Neither the Wikipedia section or the organisers of the celebration has given any clear evidence for it. I have long enjoyed this subject and while not disagreeing with the event have put the beginning of tourism as we know it in perspective. There were travellers and visitors to shoot, to fish, to hunt and to view monastic sites. There were thousands of religious pilgrims throughout history but they weren't tourists as we understand the term.
Finally, DMOL says that quotes and paragraphs are given without context to the text of the article. I disagree but would be happy to discuss whatever he has in mind. I gave clear references to show the beginnings of the landowners in Ireland and how their interactions brought us to where we are relative to the National Park in particular. I gave the information of three hotels prior to the railway arriving and the increase to seven hotels within a year. I quoted from Carter Hall giving the important logistic detail on a horse's capacity for travel (up to fifty miles in a day) but refrained from giving his joy on finding a hotel when I wanted to leave that to James Fraser. This was intended to bring the people of the day alive, less than one hundred and sixty years ago. DMOL is irritated with that but finds nothing wrong with a piece embedded in the older article regarding the two hundred and fifty years of tourism.
If you turn to the first piece I wrote last Thursday giving the hotels in Killarney and saying there was only one other on the Ring of Kerry and naming it along with the seven in Killarney a better picture will emerge. I thought that was marvellous information as it explained how visitors to Killarney could take in all the sights there and undertake the more ardous journey also; but DMOL deleted it instantly and said 'hotels on the Ring of Kerry have no relevance to Killarney.' I am happy enough with DMOL's intervention, in that first instance, as it encouraged me to explain the interaction more carefully and to give a history of the land in Killarney and of tourism in Killarney at the same time. I certainly didn't expect my clarified and expanded contribution under two headings to be deleted by DMOL on sight.
Finally, this piece will not hold together with parts removed and the remainder left. It is already condensed to give a short but full perception of two vital aspects of Killarney's history. Until DMOL or independent editors restore my contribution I am happy to leave the article on Killarney portray 'a town without a history.' My contribution was made in good faith and took clear account of that earlier editor's observation Kind regards. Kemiah — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kemiah (talk • contribs) 17:42, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
P.S. I've just read the Wikipedia account again of the date 1747 being given as the beginning of tourism in Killarney. That is 264 years ago, no more than thirty years after Daniel Defoe couldn't believe that such a thing existed. I didn't quote him out of context but to allow people weigh and consider. Hunting of the stag in Killarney was unique and those who hunted him were the most likely to come to the hospitality of the Earl of Kenmare. It occurred to me to give an account of it based on two books but many people today wouldn't find such an account uplifting. Neither do I. Please see the six books I used as references for the article and sorry that my comments appear unsigned. I am just unsuccessful at using the procedure. Kind regards. Kemiah20:02, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Kemiah, thanks for your feedback. I am restarting the history section again, and will make use of much of your information. Perhaps I should have explained that to you directly in more detail. There is a lot of good info there, but mostly I felt the tone and layout needed work. Still not sure if the mention of the other hotels on the Ring needs to be there, but we and other editors can decide that in the next few days. It's a great town Killarney, and I look forward to getting back there sometime. Bye for now,--Dmol (talk) 21:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Hi DMOL: Thanks for your reply. The most beautifully written description of Killarney and the Ring is the least known, a description from Lord McCaulay's History of England. 'the lakes overhung by groves in which the wild deer find covert' can only refer to Killarney, along with a lot more. But 'the mountains, the glens, the islands, the capes stretching far into the Atlantic' and much more can only refer to the Ring. 'The arbutus thrives better than on the sunny shores of Calabria.....' and much more also refers to Killarney. The six volume History of England was published in 1848 and it is clear that the reputation that Killarney was gaining cannot be severed from the reputation of the Ring. Leaving the year 1747 aside, both reputations were being built slowly and together from about 1800. The kernel of this is that the Ring couldn't be enjoyed without at least one location offering accommodation at a half way point. When Killarney expanded rapidly - from three hotels in 1846 to seven in 1854 and onwards and upwards thereafter, so did many locations on the Ring and off the Ring also, such as Caragh Lake and Valentia. That is a separate history but my intention is to trace the history of tourism from the beginning by mentioning the impediments to it and how they were overcome. That is why a knowledge of accommodation in at least one location is central. Incidentally, what a great pity all the hotels mentioned didn't keep proper registers. Then someone could really trace those who came and stayed. Sorry for not finding the talk page yesterday and I still cannot get my signature to work out. Kind regards. Kemiah12:16, 19 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kemiah (talk • contribs)
Hi Dmol: I like your history and you may add anything you wish from my history of the land. I should like you to restore the History of Tourism, just as I wrote it. Nobody can comment on something which isn't to be seen and I doubt if any other editor would vote that it should be deleted. Please leave any comment or question you wish. The article on Killarney will be greatly improved by these contributions, as its first sections were far too parochial for readers from America and elsewhere. If you agree to this compromise I shall be happy. Kind regardsKemiah (talk) 12:44, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
The history of tourism section you had was far too generic for inclusion in the article. Very little of it relates to Killarney directly. It's largely subjective also. The development of hotels should be included, especially with regard to the famous families connected with the town. I even wonder if we should have a separate section on tourism, or should it all go into the main history section. Certainly, Killarney depends heavily on tourism, so maybe it is justified to have two sections. If you want to put your information back regarding the McCarthys etc, you seem to have a better understanding of it than I do. It would fit in chronologically now with what is already there. See my list below for other info being sought. Bye for now--Dmol (talk) 22:19, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
Hi Dmol: I haven't time today but I shall come back to you quite soon. The article could grow too big so I shall trim the tourism section to include the hotels and give an account of the constraints on travel etc. I'm glad you agree on that. Many people like modern hotels with all facilities; but many more like those with character and history. I think readers interested in sports people and events will read on to find what they are looking for whereas history and the history of tourism should be at the beginning of the article for casual browsers in far away places and with little time. Kind regards. KemiahKemiah (talk) 11:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Hi again. Sorry, but I don't agree with the constraints on travel section being included. It would be like my original concern - subjective and essay like. But a concise version of your original facts about the famous families and their connection to Killarney's history, and in particular its tourism history, would be a good addition. BTW, did Daniel DeFoe visit Killarney. I didn't quite understand your comments regarding him.--Dmol (talk) 11:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC) Hi DMOL: Twelve million tourists a year now go to the Lake District in England for the lakes and general beauty; but there was a time when nobody thought it worthwhile. When Daniel Defoe, with his education and modernity, thought it was 'a forbidding place, best avoided,' that says it all. People didn't appreciate beauty of landscape until close on 1800. Daniel Defoe didn't come to Killarney, and if he did it would be to shoot or hunt but not for the beauty. That is how I have chosen to get the point across but another writer might make the point differently. The encyclopedic information about the hotels etc must be viewed against that background. I think what I want to say is that one shouldn't get the notion that Killarney's tourism developed relatively late but that nowhere in the world appreciated beauty until a certain period. I leave you to do what you wish with the history section but I intend to try and condense the tourism history as much as I can. If at least half the visitors to Killarney as tourism began to grow took the sight seeing tours and the more difficult Ring of Kerry then a brief account of how they were able to do so is totally necessary. In the history of tourism we are dealing with horse travel and the Ring took two days, so accommodation along the way was necessary. The Killarney hoteliers couldn't recommend the trip otherwise. I can answer but one of your questions. Killarney Railway Station was opened on July 16th 1853. Kind regards. KemiahKemiah (talk) 22:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC) Hi DMOL: I have placed a picture of the plaque commemorating the coming of the Railway into the History of Tourism section. I have left out the Defoe bit but put in the bit about the horses, as it gives a feel of the times. I hope you are satisfied with this and I shall keep an eye on how you are getting on with the history section. Kind regards. KemiahKemiah (talk) 00:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC) == Info needed for history section. == I'm presently working (with others) on the history section, but would like some help with the following.
- When did the railway come to Killarney.
- The effect of the famine on Killarney.
- Details of Killarney's history during the War of Independence, and the Civil War.
- Details on Coltman's Castle, (known locally as Flesk Castle) and its destruction.
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