Talk:Kingdom of Hungary (1526–1867)

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was. No consensus to move. Lynch7 18:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)


Kingdom of Hungary (1538–1867)Kingdom of Hungary (Habsburg) – Reason -> the consistency with Kingdom of Croatia (Habsburg). It's clear and recognizable, finely disambiguated. Jaro88slav (talk) 12:39, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Comment. The Habsburgs were kings of Hungary both before and after 1867, or am I missing something? In fact, Hungary was more of a kingdom post-1867 since this is when separate parliaments and so forth were created. Kauffner (talk) 15:31, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Good remark! There exists the page Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary (some kind of disambigation). What do you say about the title Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary (1538–1867)? Jaro88slav (talk) 05:46, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
I think that the current title ("Kingdom of Hungary (1538–1867)") is perfect and adding the term "Habsburg" would be superfluous. With that logic we could create an article called "Árpád Kingdom of Hungary (1000–1301)". The current title is concise and right to the point. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 06:15, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
I concur with Koertefa. In this case we should deal with Árpád Kingdom of Hungary or Anjou Kingdom of Hungary (1308-1382) or Luxembourg Kingdom of Hungary (1382-1437) etc. in separate articles. Fakirbakir (talk) 10:30, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per Koertefa. The current title is right to the point. Also in the lead it is mentioned the Habsburg Monarchy. Adrian (talk) 10:41, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

1538[edit]

Is there any reliable source stating that 1538 was a turning point in the history of the kingdom? The peace of Nagyvárad was concluded in this year, however, it did not change either the de facto situation (the kingdom had been divided into two parts since 1526) or the de iure position (the kingdom was deemed to be one state). The peace even confirmed the idea of the unity of the kingdom by stating that even the lands ruled de facto by John Szapolyai would be inherited by his opponent, Ferdinánd I. The turning point is 1541, the fall of Buda to the Ottomans, when the medieval kingdom was divided into three parts. For further details, I refer, for instance, to László Kontler: Millenium in Central Europe: A History of Hungary (Atlantisz Publishing House, 1999, ISBN 963-9165-37-9) pp. 139-142. Borsoka (talk) 03:33, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually I am very unsure how we could handle these "de facto"/"de iure" positions. My concern is we can not demonstrate the exact territorial division between 1526 and 1538 (there was no division, I can imagine if there was a map about supporters of John I and Ferdinand before 1538 in Kingdom of Hungary that would look like a jigsaw puzzle), and the nobility thought this king/antiking situation was just a temporary problem. We can draw "borders" after 1538 but even if the country was partitioned into three parts in 1541 the "de iure" position lasted until 1699 when the "old" borders of Kingdom of Hungary were re-established in my opinion. However I can agree in the reality the turning point was 1541 when the Turks seized the actual power relations. Fakirbakir (talk) 10:23, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
The period 1526 - 1541 is a period of civil war [1]. 1538 is just the year of Varad acord, when the de facto division that started in 1526 was officialized (the agreement lasted for only 2 years). I support the title Kingdom of Hungary (1541–1867). Probably the article Hungarian Civil War should treat the 1526-1541 period 79.117.206.105 (talk) 13:23, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
The idea of a separate article on the civil war lasting from 1526 to 1538 is not the best idea, because its content could be the a version of the articles on the two kings, Ferdinánd I and János Szapolyai. Borsoka (talk) 14:56, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Why till 1867?[edit]

The more I am thinking of the issue, the more I am convinced that the article should be splitted into at least three parts: Royal Hungary (1541-1699), Kingdom of Hungary (1699-1848) and Kingdom of Hungary within the Austrian Empire (1849-1867). Moreover I could imagine a further split (instead of Kingdom of Hungary (1699-1848): Kingdom of Hungary (1699-1790) and Kingdom of Hungary (1790-1848). I think the mentioned periods significantly differ from each other. Between 1541 and 1699 the kingdom was a slim borderland, but its nobility could easily maintain its special status with external assistance. From 1699 to 1790 the kingdom which had regained a number of its medieval territories was a peaceful realm of the Habsburgs where only Rákóczi's uprising (at the beginning) and Joseph II's reforms (in the last years) caused conflicts. The period between 1790 and 1848 is characterized by the emergence of Croatian, Hungarian, Romanian, Slovakian national consciousness. Finally, between 1849 and 1867 the kingdom was fully integrated into the Austrian Empire. Borsoka (talk) 06:28, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Your idea does make sense. The reason why I created (more accurately "extended") page of Kingdom of Hungary (1538-1867) was that there was a gap (circa 168 years) between page of Royal Hungary and and page of Austria-Hungary. We had a page "History of Hungary 1700 – 1919" but its time scale was quite inappropriate in my opinion. I did split it and merged its parts into the appropriate sections of the existing articles. My only concern is we already have lots of article about Kingdom of Hungary. Moreover, the main page of Kingdom of Hungary is a fork, perhaps we should reduce its size drastically. We do have two pages about Austria-Hungary (Austria-Hungary and page of Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen. Actually we had had three pages about it but I merged Transleithania into page of Land of the Crown....). So I support to create those new articles, but we should do something with the old articles as well. Fakirbakir (talk) 10:23, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I think this article could be deleted. Borsoka (talk) 17:46, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I am not against it if you have time to reorganize its theme into new articles. But that is an awful lot of work.Fakirbakir (talk) 18:44, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
I am not entirely sure that we should split the article into many little ones. What is the problem with having the periods that you have mentioned discussed in separate sections of this single article? Why would it be important for these periods to have their own articles? KœrteFa {ταλκ} 04:46, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 2013[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 23:35, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Kingdom of Hungary (1538–1867)Kingdom of Hungary (1526–1867) – 1538 as a starting date cannot be substantiated by reliable sources. Please also comment on Talk:Kingdom of Hungary (1000–1538) Borsoka (talk) 04:07, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.