Talk:Kingdom of Hungary (1920–46)
|WikiProject Hungary||(Rated Start-class, Top-importance)|
|WikiProject Former countries||(Rated Start-class)|
- 1 [Untitled]
- 2 Map caption
- 3 Motto
- 4 Different years in the same article
- 5 Was the Kingdom actually abolished in 1944-45 ?
- 6 About the start date
- 7 Merge between Kingdom of Hungary (1920–1946) and Hungary between the World Wars
- 8 de facto country ?
This article is nonsense.
- Hungary was a kingdom until 1946. So are you going to create an article Kingdom of Hungary (1944–1946)?!?
- Hungary is a country with different official state names just like many others i.e. France. Are you going to create articles for RoF and KoF for each change of government form?!?
This article should not exist.
--peyerk 16:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
The map is captioned: Map of Hungary before after the Vienna Awards and the invasion of Yugoslavia in World War II. Can someone more knowledgable than me delete either "before" or "after" to correct it?
Ttenchantr 15:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi this is tricky as the map is not very good. It shows everything with the same color and not very detailed. In it's present form it shows all border changes and mixes them together from 1938 to 41. The best is just to stick with the facts and state that one color shows the 1920 border and another shows the late 1941 border. Hobartimus 05:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Could anybody give the source of the "Motto"?
--peyerk 06:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Different years in the same article
Did it exist between 1920 and 1946? The title says so right now. Or did it exist between 1919 and 1946? The text and the box say so right now? Can somebody please help here? Calle Widmann (talk) 20:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- Actually I think we should keep 1920 as a start date for this specific regime. 1920 is when the monarchy was confirmed as a form of government, the Habsbourg barred from reclaiming the throne, and Horthy elected. Hence, it is the formal beginning of the post-World War I regime. Between the end of 1919 and the beginning of 1920, Hungary was in political uncertainty. Anyway, there is still the main article Kingdom of Hungary which may cover the period between the of 1919 and spring 1920. Any other opinion is welcome, though. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Was the Kingdom actually abolished in 1944-45 ?
The current articles states that in late 1944, the Kingdom was abolished and replaced by Ferenc Szálasi's regime, which went by the name Hungarian State (Magyar Állam). While there is of course no doubt that Miklós Horthy's regime was overthrown and replaced by the nazi-controlled puppet regime of Ferenc Szálasi and his Arrow Cross party, I have been wondering about the validity of the current articles and succession boxes. This all started when I could find no decisive sources (outsides various wikipedias) that Ferenc Szálasi's regime actually went by the name "Hungarian State". My doubts increased when I found out that the Hungarian article is titled Szálasi-kormány ("Szálasi government") and not "Magyar Állam" (nor does it use the expression). Nor did Miklos Molnar's concise book on hungarian history make mention of a formal name change.
I made some searches and found this article at the archontology.org website, stating that the country, under Szálasi, was formally headed by a "Council of Regency" (Kormányzótanács) which Szálasi headed as "Leader of the Nation" (nemzetvezető, i.e. Head of State). The fact that the expression "Council of Regency" was used would mean that Hungary was still a "Kingdom", even under Szálasi.
I emailed archontology's webmaster and he answered me this :
"Attached you will find two facsimile copies of the Official Gazette of Hungary published by the Szálasi regime. The references to "magyar királyi" [also abbreviated as "m. kir."] ("Hungarian royal") in the styles of office holders prove that Hungary was still considered a kingdom after 16 Oct 1944.
I have never heard of "Magyar Allam" or "Magyar Állam" in the context of a polity style. As explained at http://archontology/nations/hungary/01_polity.php, "Magyarország" was used as official alternative to "Magyar Királyság" and the style of Szálasi reflects it ("Magyarország nemzetvezetője")."
You can read the two facsimile he sent me here and here. Any Hungarian speakers would be highly welcome to take a look at this. I can't unfortunately read the language myself, but browsing through them, I could only find recurring mentions of "Magyar Állami", which is "Hungarian State" with "State" used as an adjective. What is obvious is that Szálasi liked the term "Hungarian State" and his regime used it a lot. But so far I could find no evidence that he abolished the Kingdom; only evidence of the contrary, actually. (BTW, you can see, in the facsimile the proof that the Arrow Cross regime did codify a different coat of arms, so the one shown in the Hungarian State article is correct).
So, if the Kingdom was never abolished, that would mean the current dates are incorrect, and we should use 1920-1946 with no interruption. Of course, the Szálasi regime deserves its own article, but it seems that "Hungarian State" is not the right title. Apparently, the closest thing to an official name for it was Nemzeti Összefogás Kormánya, which apparently means (please tell me if this is correct) "Government of National Unity".
Actually, any evidence that the Szálasi regime did abolish the (fictional) "Kingdom" de facto or de jure and did use "Hungarian State" on an official basis would be highly welcome. So far, I tend to believe that the country's official name was still "Kingdom of Hungary", and remained so until 1946 without interruption.
So, that would also mean that the current succession infobox in the Szálasi regime's article would have to be removed. Would everyone agree on that ? We might also have to choose another title ? I tend to prefer formal titles, so "Government of National Unity (Hungary)" could be an option (or would "Government of National Union" be a better translation ?) with "Szálasi regime" and "Arrow Cross regime" redirecting to it. I'm open to suggestions, though.
- Hi, the relevant parts: "A Kormányzó Úr [Miklós Horty] visszavonult az államügyek vitelétől és tudomásul vette vitéz Lakatos Géza miniszterelnök és kormánya lemondását. A rendkívüli intézkedéseket követő helyzetre és körülményekre tekintettel hozzájárult ahhoz, hogy az államfői kérdés rendezésére három tagú kormányzótanácsot alakitsak s a kormányzótanács megalakitásáig, valamit az államfői hatalom gyakorlására vonatkozó javaslatnak előterjesztése és törvényes formák közt történő elfogadása időpontjáig magyar királyi miniszterelnöki minőségemben ideiglenesen a kormányzói jogkört is gyakoroljam, nehogy a késedelemből Nemzetünkre és Hazánkra súlyos kár és veszedelem származzék. (1944-10-16.)" This whole formality (stating that the Governor has retired from active duty, accepted Lakatos' - the former prime minister - and his government's resignation, and agreed to hand over power to Szálasi) is irrelevant, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikl%C3%B3s_Horthy#cite_ref-horthy_5-8 Your question is answered by the part that mentions, that because of the lack of time to properly address the question of the Head of State (the text doesn't mention the actual problem but it's about type/formality and transition from monarchy to something else), he (Szálasi) forms a 3 people council to address this issue, but until the formation of this Council of Governor he would be acting as Royal Prime Minister. Also, in Hungarian "kormányzó" is best translated as governor, regency/regent is "régensség/régens". Furthermore, I don't know what happened after this council formed, what they'd proposed, therefore I don't know wheter the 1946 date is correct for abolition, but it's certainly not before 1944-10-16. PAStheLoD (talk) 14:45, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. Actually, could you take a look at the second document ? It's from 1945, and I believe it still mentions the "Kingdom" as a form of government. The 1946 date is definitely correct, since the Kingdom was formally abolished and gave way to the Second Republic of Hungary. The problem here is to know if there was another formal abolition before. It seems that Szalasi may have planned to abolish the so-called "Monarchy", but he probably didn't have the time to do so. Any insight about this would be most welcome. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 08:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've been exchanging messages with PAStheLoD on his talk page and there is every indication that Hungary was still officially a Kingdom/Regency even under the Szalasi regime, as far as late January 1945 (no indication that Szalasi did abolish the Kingdom between late January and his downfall in late March 1945, though this might be possible). I'm going to wait a few days to see if we have other, dissenting, sources and opinions, and after that I think I'll make the appropriate corrections.Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 12:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I made the corrections to the article and renamed Hungarian State. I think we have established that the Kingdom was never abolished by the Arrow Cross government and that the Szalasi government still purported to be a "royal" government. Thanks to PAStheLoD for his help. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 09:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- I endorse the new name if this was an RFM. Hobartimus (talk) 10:20, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
About the start date
The issue has already been raised above, but I think it's worth a discussion : which year do you think is more appropriate for a start date, 1919 or 1920 ? I would personally support keeping 1920 as a start date, since this is the year when Horthy was elected as a regent, and his regime established de jure. Then again, 1919 was the year when the Hungarian Soviet Republic fell : Horthy was not regent yet, but as minister of war he was one the country's most important politicians, so one could consider that the regime was already de facto in place. Between August 1919 (fall of the communist regime) and March 1920 (election of Horthy), Hungary was in some sort of political limbo. Yet again, it was still officially the Kingdom of Hungary, although it was not yet officially the regency period that this article adresses. I'd say 1919 and 1920 are both acceptable as start dates, although I would personally keep 1920. What do you think ? Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
Merge between Kingdom of Hungary (1920–1946) and Hungary between the World Wars
- Opposed: The former is a "state" article which contains sections for economy and foreign policy, as well as an information box. It has a history, but it isn't a history. Conversely, Hungary between the World Wars is a chronological history article. The information overlaps, but they are rather different articles in terms of format/style. I realize this split isn't always clear with some articles, but it is in this case, and I think there is value in it. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 00:26, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
- I have no opinion on merging though I think that TheMightyQuill makes some good points. I also think that having shorter articles which are linked to each other is better than a single long-ish article. Finally, how would people come to the topic? Might there be some who are interested in knowing, as I was, what was the Kingdom of Hungary. That's a different question from what was going on in Hungary between the wars. I do think that if these two articles are merged that the the Soviet Republic article should also be merged into the final article as well.--Bruce Hall (talk) 14:49, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
the fact is that nobody is looking after these articles. They are a mess. Your theoretical musings are rather futile as long as they don't result in actual editing. The articles can well be separate if they are well-kept, and if they are clearly cross-linked. I.e. Hungary between the World Wars needs to be a clear WP:SS sub-article of Kingdom of Hungary (1920–1946) both structurally and in terms of content. Sadly, instead of fixing the problem, it appears you just have removed the tags indicating the problem. This isn't helpful. You are welcome to fix the problem in another fashion than the one I happened to suggest, but if you don't fix it, I do not feel you have any call to remove the cleanup tags. --dab (𒁳) 13:51, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed,WikiProject Hungary is essentially dead – the only people to contribute to it in its death throes were User:Dr. Blofeld, myself and my wife-to-be User:Monkap, and I hope it is not trying to subvert process by saying, Blofeld occasionally asks Monkap and me to translate some particular article, which we try to do, but as a project it is dead, or at least comatose.
- Now, to the article. I would be inclined to merge the articles, perhaps not in quite the way Dbachnann suggests, but in priniciple I would be inclined to merge, for no other reason than that "Hungary between the World Wars" seems a very odd title for a topic, whereas "Kingdom of Hungary (1920-1946)" makes sense as a title for a topic. In other circumstances I would be inclined to take WP:BOLD and just merge the content, but considering this is up for discussion, it's best I don't -- hence my lack of edits are not laziness, rather reticence.
This article is reductive in that it basically collapses the Arrow Cross and Horthy's regime into one by saying that the government itself exported thousands of Jews. It wasn't until the coup that most of Hungary's Jews were deported and Horthy fairly often defied orders from Hitler to deport Jews.
I think due credit is deserved to Hungary for protecting its Jews in such a manor. This needs to be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamcgath (talk • contribs) 19:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that a new article should be created called Hungary under the Arrow Cross, as the Arrow Cross regime was supported by the Nazis as a replacement of Horthy's government that was showing signs that it would surrender to the Allies.--R-41 (talk) 11:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
de facto country ?
What is the basis for the claim that this was a "de facto" country ? It was a recognised country with recognised borders ( until it tried to take over Slovakia and Transylvania ), and a mostly undisputed government. So why "de facto" ?Eregli bob (talk) 13:20, 24 September 2012 (UTC)