Talk:Kingdom of Sicily

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Good article Kingdom of Sicily has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.


GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kingdom of Sicily/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Prose issues
  • Parts of it are written using British English grammar and style, while other parts are written in Oxford English grammary and style. Choose one style and stick with it throughout the article. Now, if I made any corrections myself contrary to British English grammar and usage, feel free to make the appropriate corrections.
    • Good. MuZemike 21:54, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • In the "Norman Kingdom" subsection, very first sentence – The Norman Kingdom was created in 1130 by Roger II of Sicily, who united the lands he inherited from his father Roger I of Sicily, the Duchy of Apulia and the County of Sicily, which belonged to his cousin William II, Duke of Apulia, until his death in 1127, and the other Norman vassals. → way too long of a sentence. Please try to split into at least two separate sentences.
    • Good. MuZemike 21:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • The paragraph lengths in the "Norman Kingdom" subsection are sorely inconsistent; compare with the following "Hohenstaufen kingdom" subsection which is pretty consistent. The number of sentences in the paragraphs are 2 - 11 - 3 - 5 - 3. The first, third, and fifth paragraphs are way too short, and the second paragraph is way too long. Try to move some stuff around to create paragraphs of more consistent length and number of sentences.
    • Good. MuZemike 21:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • In the "Hohenstaufen kingdom" subsection – In 1202, an army led by the chancellor Walter of Palearia and Dipold of Vohburg was defeated by Walter. → This sentence could probably be rewritten in structure as well as to eliminate the confusion between the two Walters.
    • Good. MuZemike 21:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Last paragraph in the "Hohenstaufen kingdom" subsection – After the Kingdom was governed by Manfred of Sicily, the illegitimate son of Frederick, who ruled the kingdom for fifteen years while other Hohenstaufen heirs were ruling various areas in Germany. However, the legitimate heir was Conrad II. → The first sentence is a fragment, while the second sentence contains a "however". Reword this section to make more sense.
    • Good. MuZemike 21:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • The "Society", "Economy", and "Religion" sections' singular paragraphs are too long and should be split into two.
    • Good. MuZemike 21:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Verifiability issues
  • In the "Hohenstaufen kingdom" subsection, the second half of that third paragraph is completely unsourced. Please provide a reference, or alternatively, remove it.
    • Good. MuZemike 21:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • The second half of the first paragraph in the "Angevin and Aragonese kingdoms" subsection (note that I combined the first two paragraphs there) is completely unsourced. Please provide a reference, or alternatively, remove it.
    • Good. MuZemike 21:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
MoS issues
  • Words to avoid – there are some words to avoid that should be removed or changed, such as "although" and "however".
    • Good. Changed one remaining instance of "although" to "while". I'll leave the one "however" in there as it's not editorialising but rather moving the timeline. MuZemike 21:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Stability issues
Other things to remember
  • Redundant citations – Except for quotes, you only need one inline citation at the end of the content in which that citation is used.
  • Logical quotations – The end quotation mark precedes the end-punctuation unless that quotation is a sentence in itself.
  • No images directly under L3 headings – the software doesn't like it when images are placed directly under a L3 heading.
  • End punctuation in captions – remember, per WP:CAPTION, if the caption is a sentence fragment, then no end punctuation is to be used. If it is a complete sentence, then end punctuation must be used.
  • Non-breaking spaces in separable figures – per WP:MOSNUM, you need non-breaking spaces between the number and the measurement, such as "2.5 million"
  • Non-breaking spaces with rulers – also per MOSNUM, you need non-breaking spaces between the last name of a ruler and the Roman numeral.
  • lead/led – You're using both words for the same thing. I believe it's "led" when used as "... which led to ..."
  • No forced resizing in thumbnails – per WP:MOSIMAGE, unless there is a specific reason to resize an image, don't do it. This disallows default resizing of thumbs under "my preferences", limiting usability.
Conclusions

On hold pending further improvements noted above (except the "other things to remember" obviously; that is only for future reference). MuZemike 23:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Fixed prose, mos, and verifiability issues. Hopefully John Kenney will be online in order to resolve the issue about the confuse the current lead may create according to his concerns. --Alarichus (talk) 16:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Good article Passed MuZemike 21:54, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Some confusion[edit]

I don't think this article does enough to make clear that, from 1282 to 1816, there were in fact two kingdoms known officially as the "Kingdom of Sicily." This article needs to explicitly justify why it is only talking about the island kingdom - arguably, Kingdom of Sicily should be a disambiguation page, with links to an article on the Kingdom before 1282, to an article on the island kingdom from 1282 to 1816, on the "Kingdom of Naples", and on the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies after 1816. At any rate, the current intro is quite confusing. john k (talk) 00:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, let's clarify this issue. From 1130 to 1282 there is the Kingdom of Sicily whose parts are both Sicily and Naples, without any judicial, military or religious distinction. In 1282 the Kingdom of Naples was formed. It was a state which had no relation to the Kingdom of Sicily. It's official name was Kingdom of Naples. In 1816 the Kingdom of Sicily and the Kingdom of Naples were unified as the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. However, they were two separate entities, each one with its own parliament, judicial system, and clergy, and official state name. The monarch of the Two Sicilies maintained the titles of both Kingdoms(Sicily and Naples).--Alarichus (talk) 08:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I read carefully your concerns John, and they originate from a mistake you're making. The official name of Naples was Kingdom of Naples, and that is the official name used by modern historians, not Kingdom of Sicily. --Alarichus (talk) 17:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I changed part of the lead:
  • It was sometimes called the regnum Apuliae et Siciliae until 1282. In 1282 a revolt against the Angevin rule, known as the Sicilian Vespers dethroned Charles of Anjou. The Angevin managed to maintain control in the mainland areas of the kingdom, and formed the Kingdom of Naples.

I believe this is clarifying. What do you think?--Alarichus (talk) 17:47, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not making a mistake. The official name of the kingdom informally known as the "Kingdom of Naples" was, in fact, "Kingdom of Sicily." Thus, when that kingdom was merged with the kingdom which constituted the island, you had the "Kingdom of Two Sicilies." The Angevins did not "form the Kingdom of Naples." The Angevins continued to rule the mainland (and claim the island) under the title of "King of Sicily," just as they had done previously. The kingdom became known as the Kingdom of Naples so as people wouldn't be confused about what was meant, but that was never its official name. Note that the Kings always called themselves "King of Sicily" (as see here). It is true that the Kingdom of Naples is normally called such by modern historians, and was normally called such by contemoraries. But the fact that it was officially the "Kingdom of Sicily" needs to at least be acknowledged here. And we certainly shouldn't say that Charles of Anjou formed a new kingdom on the mainland. john k (talk) 19:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Modern historians refer to it officially as Kingdom of Naples. It was called Kingdom of Naples, by every other state except Kingdom of Naples itself. You made additions to the part of the lead I changed, and I believe that they contain no issues. Collaboration succeeded, review may continue. --Alarichus (talk) 21:20, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Modern historians don't get to decide for convenience that a state has a different official name from the one that it actually used for itself. "Kingdom of Sicily" certainly isn't the common name for the Kingdom of Naples, but it was the official name. In terms of the good article review, my feeling is that there is very little information on anything after 1266 - and that including the Habsburg and Bourbon periods under the heading "Angevin and Aragonese kingdoms" is problematic. john k (talk) 22:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
The dispute about the Kingdom of Naples was resolved. My goal regarding this article was to get it to GA status for the moment. If you want to expand the article, expand it. --Alarichus (talk) 23:19, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
A good article ought to be comprehensive. This article is not comprehensive - its history of the period after 1282 is minimal. There are eleven paragraphs on the first 150 years of the kingdom and five paragraphs on the next 600 years. It is also misleading in describing the Habsburg and Bourbon periods under a heading called "Angevin and Aragonese kingdoms". I don't think it qualifies as a good article at the moment. john k (talk) 23:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
The society, economy, religion, coinage, demographics are largely about the period after 1282 and the section about malta and the unification refer to the period after 1282, so I would say that you are wrong. Be bold though. If you want to improve the article, improve it. Create a subsection about the Bourbon and Habsbourg period or anything else you regard as improving. --Alarichus (talk) 23:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I think its more than "clarifications" that are needed here. This article says that "In 1816 the Kingdom of Sicily merged with Kingdom of Naples into the newly created Kingdom of the Two Sicilies" when the article on the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies claims that "the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies resulted from the reunification of the Kingdom of Sicily with the Kingdom of Naples (called the kingdom of peninsular Sicily), by King Alfonso V of Aragon in 1442". One of the articles is definitely wrong and I suspect it's this one. --Demdem (talk) 06:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal[edit]

See Talk:Kingdom of Sicily, Jerusalem and Cyprus. —Srnec (talk) 21:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Kingdom of Sicily[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Kingdom of Sicily's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "stan":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT 11:04, 3 September 2011 (UTC)