Talk:Kwame Nkrumah

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Untitled[edit]

http://www.thenewghanaian.com/viewnews.asp?id=3407&page=news Much of the facts in this alternative view of Nkrumah are identical to the views expressed in this article. The interpretation is quite different. Whilst the views of the article above may have a strong anti-Nkrumah bias, they do serve to highlight criticisms of the man and his leadership which are not really examined in this article. His regime was marred by chronic economic problems (partly due to a drop in Cocoa prices) as well as the human rights abuses. Additionally the article also gives an alternative view on Nkrumah's Pan-Africanism - delusions of a grandeur by a leader failing his own people.

Nkrumah is a complex character widely seen and respected as a strong anti imperialist leader yet his record as a leader is much less impressive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.134.109 (talk) 01:22, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

"While lecturing in political science at Lincoln he was elected president of the African Students Organization of America and Canada." am i missing something, or should that say 'studying in political science'. decided not to change it myself incase he was actually lecturing, but it is contradictory to be a lecturer and head of a student organization..

Hi, I'm Giulia from Italy. I found an error in the link with "panafrican congress": actually the link leads to a panafrican party which has nothing to do with W.E.B Dubois's (and Nkrumah's) Panafrican Congresses.--131.114.116.44 20:26, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sections?[edit]

Nice article! Is it possible to subdivide it a little more for reading ease, though?

Dvyost 04:55, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Erm...[edit]

He was a marxist.

He was a dictator.

He did lead his country to ruin.

He did die in exile.

These are undisputed matters of historical fact. Surely you cannot disagree?

jucifer 06:51, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Please don't mix your POV in with plain fact and then insist I accept all or none of it. Also, please read up on Wikipedia's NPOV policy if you haven't already. Everyking 07:04, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
We don't use dictator, even for more obvious examples, for NPOV reasons. Pitching Marxist in the leading paragraph with your other POV tells me you are not sympathetic to Marxism. The ruin is debateable. die in exile - your implication is that it was in disgrace. It was not. Wizzy 07:09, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

a) 'Marxist' is not pejorative. It is plainly irrelevant how I feel about marxism. Marxism is a philosophy which braodly - he held by, ipso facto, he was a marxist.

Thanks for the clarification. Putting it in the same sentence as your other additions, however, implies something different.

b)Who are "we" that don't use dictator? "I" do! I have read the NPOV guidelines and see nothing there to suggest that someone who subverts democracy, concentrates all power in his own hands and rules by DICTAT is a DICTATor. Indeed: the article mentions that he named himself "life president". Thw wiki article on life president reads "President for Life is a title assumed by some dictators". I even used the phrase politician-cum-dictator to describe his progression. Can you think of a different way to describe him?

"We" is thrashed out on many pages, but best summarised on Talk:List of dictators.

c) When he took over the country from the British it was the wealthiest state in sub saharan africa and had a $1bn surplus and life expectancy of 57. When he left it was deep in forign debt, had gnp per capita of <$300, was one of the poorest countries in SSA and had a life expectancy of less than 40. That is was I call a ruinous rule.

Add the statistics, certainly, further down the page, or on Economy of Ghana, backed up with references. That is was I call.. - leave that bit out.
If you know the details, and feel like some cleanup work, I feel that Economy of Ghana could use headings, and a good cleanup.

d)I don't feel "die in exile" implies disgrace. It is a fact, it is not even a selective fact, but quite a basic one

I NEVER insisted you accept all or none of it, I actually explitily suggested that they be address individually.

Then add the facts, individually, to relevant sections of the page, or Economy of Ghana, so they can be addressed individually.

jucifer 07:41, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

We strive for consensus, and NPOV. Wizzy 07:51, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not sure how to add my own threads/separate responses.

Regardless of the items noted above, there is one section that seems to lack credibility. (Related to the thread below on making the article more academic.) The page reads, "As a leader of this government, Nkrumah faced three serious challenges. First, he needed to learn the art of government. Second, he needed to create a unified nation of Ghana from the four territories of the Gold Coast. Third, he needed to win his nation’s independence. Nkrumah was successful at all three goals."

However, I think whether or not he was successful at the first two goals is debatable-- one could easily argue that the measures he took as "president for life" of Ghana (preventative detention, outlawing other parties, etc.) demonstrate that he did NOT learn the art of government. I don't think it's appropriate for an encyclopedia page to give this kind of description. It should be fact and fact-based direct analysis. Am I wrong? How might this part of the page be edited?

(Also, why is this page not ranked in importance? I think there's a case to be made that Nkrumah was one of the most influential leaders of the past century. Should this article not be marked "high importance"?)

-- Callie (5/5/08) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.36.54.26 (talk) 02:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Africa = Ghana?[edit]

Although I agree it's a good article, I feel there are some ignorant pieces of text here and there especially in respect to Ghana. Although there are minor pieces of text in terms of character count and position, I feel it would only be more scholarly and more logical to edit these pieces of text.

In the Education and Early Life Section..there's a phrase: "In 1935 he left Africa for the USA," and also the Return to "Africa" section

You should already know that Africa as a whole is a big continent made up of many different countries, it would be appreciated if you could be a little bit more specific about what part of Africa you are talking about...specifically a country...specifically Ghana(or the Gold Coast as it was formerly called)

Thank you.

Replied on User talk:Crazyibeaji Wizzy 08:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

List of dictators[edit]

You may wish to edit this entry in List of dictators. Wizzy 08:41, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Checked it out--looks like a fair summary of his actions from what I can tell. --Dvyost 09:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Would you call him a dictator ? Does he belong on the list ? Wizzy 13:37, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Seems reasonable. He seems to have been a dictator in anyones books. President for life and all, one party state. You could possible argue that he was somehow benevolent. But either way, still dictator. Charlotte Hobbs 14:48, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you. Wizzy 14:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Remove POV[edit]

He believed that capitalism's effects were going to stay with Africa for a long time. Gotta change that one around a bit. Capitalism effect presumed to be malign =POV Charlotte Hobbs 14:51, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, I think the idea that the CIA sponsored the Coup is a rumour, not fact. At least my Politics of Development lecturer said so.

Having looked around a bit, I have yet to find a reliable source for the assertion. There are 3 sources listed here, but they are not online, making them more difficult to check at the moment. Does anyone have a link to an original source stating that there was CIA, or any other, active, non-Ghanaian support, for the coup? -- capnvan 14:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
We're allowed to write about what he thought; i.e. his point of view. El_C 15:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
See mention in this article. El_C 15:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The current version of the article does not state that Nkrumah thought the CIA backed the coup. It states that the CIA backed the coup. "It's what he thought" isn't, therefore, an adequate justification for leaving this as-is (in the absence of real substantiation for the claim). 83.103.77.181 (talk) 20:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Most of the CIA-backed coup rumors come from the personal testimony of John Stockwell, former CIA agent, and are not backed up by any other sources. US documents (the declassified CIA and State Department material) on the matter don't show direct involvement either. 41.191.243.91 (talk) 20:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I've added an unreliable source tag to the CIA-backed coup accusation. After reviewing the "Black Power" documentary, I don't think the Stockwell source can be admitted. John Stockwell in the documentary simply states that he believes Nkrumah was overthrown by the CIA and specifically admits there is no "paper trail" to back up his accusations. As for the other two sources, Carl Oglesby is a well-known conspiracy theorist (he's even in the category on WP!), and Kwame Botwe-Asamoah is a well-known Pan-Africanist who has also submitted work to titles such as "Saluting Osagyefo Dr. Kwame Nkrumah". However, it is his PhD dissertation which by WP policy is a reliable source. After reviewing that source as well though, Botwe-Asamoah produces no evidence for his accusation other than the personal testimony of the wife of Jerry Rawlings. 41.191.243.91 (talk) 18:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the tag and amended the text. It is perfectly acceptable to state that it had been "claimed" that the coup was/may have been CIA-backed, as per the references. Nick Cooper (talk) 19:31, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Education[edit]

Can anyone positively confirm that Nkrumah had an earned doctorate from the London School of Economics? I have not been able to find an indisputable source for this. The German-language version of this article says he did, but I did not find a dissertation written by Nkrumah in the LSE library. (So I will alter that in the German version, if I can.) That same article has a photo of Nkrumah receiving an honorary doctorate from Humboldt University in the old communist East Berlin. (So, I will add that to the list in the main, English-language article.)

But still, did Nkrumah have an earned doctorate (i.e. one for which he wrote a dissertation)? One scholar claims that he went by "Dr. Nkrumah" because of his honorary doctorate from Lincoln University. [1]

On a similar note, shouldn't we just dump the whole "honorary degrees" paragraph? I mean, no one in the world cares who you got an HONORARY degree from...--jackbrown

According to his biography on the Convention People's Party website:[2]

In 1945 he studied at the London School of Economics as a PhD candidate in Anthropology, withdrawing after one term and entered the University College, London as a PhD candidate in Philosophy. He also registered as a student of Law at Gray’s Inn in 1946.

So, that's why you can't find his dissertation in LSE: he dropped out. If no one in the world cared about honorary degrees, then honorary degrees would not exist. Academics and intellectuals collect these like military men collect medals.

Biased[edit]

The article is clearly biased to Nkrumah's point of view (see e.g. the POV section above on this discussion page), and seems slightly tendentiously in favour of him. The tone of the section on his dictatorship and allegedly corrupt practices, in particular, does not seem completely objective. Johnleemk | Talk 03:38, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

In Vietnam?[edit]

The article says Nkrumah was in Vietnam at the time of the coup. I read somewhere else that he was in China at the time (the purpose of his visit being to negotiate an end to the Vietnam War). Josh (talk) 04:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Nkrumah did indeed visit both North Vietnam and China at the time. It is not clear where exactly he was at the moment of the coup, however, it is well-known that he did not learn of the coup before he was in China. I will amend the article. Paul kuiper NL (talk) 21:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Birth date[edit]

I would like to propose a different date for the birthday of Kwame Nkrumah. Specifically, I would suggest September 18, 1909, as suggested by his son here: http://www.modernghana.com/blogs/244972/31/my-fathers-legacy-1-sekou-nkrumahs-recollections-o.html

I just learned about the naming culture in Ghana, which boils down to giving newborns a name according to the day of the week. See here: http://www.angelfire.com/me4/joseph/culture.HTML For example, Kofi Annan was born in Ghana, April 8 1938, which is indeed a Friday. (use a day of the week calendar like here: http://scphillips.com/units/dayform.html In the case of Nkrumah, September 21st 1909 (a Tuesday) cannot be right, since his name, Kwame, clearly shows that he was born on a Saturday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Airs747 (talkcontribs) 14:17, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

After visiting Nkrumah's memorial, the tour guide told me the birthdate was a guess. As he was born to a poor village, no one can really be sure the exact day/year he was born. In addition, I saw an earlier edit regarding the spelling of his last name. The tour guide confirmed this story, but I don't remember what he said the actual name was. In any case, this is all unsourced. I'll be looking for stuff to back this up. Nate Berkopec (talk) 02:54, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

The bottom line here is that we can't be sure of the date, but we know for certain that his name was "Kwame", and that, therefore, he was born on a Saturday. We can't confirm that September 18 is right, but September 21 is certainly wrong. I intend to make that change, and cite the Ghanaian Times article that Airs747 provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TypoBoy (talkcontribs) 15:04, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

References[edit]

  1. ^ Mary E. Montgomery, "The Eyes of the World were Watching: Ghana, Great Britain, and the United States" (Ph.D. diss., University of Maryland, 2004), p. 20, n. 10. -- Poldy Bloom 21:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  2. ^ Kwame Nkrumah - Biography

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But wait![edit]

Wasn't he a dicator?--201.81.231.158 (talk) 15:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)