Talk:LGBT parenting

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Allen/Rosenfeld.[edit]

Why do we include Rosenfeld's study but not Allen's, and how can I get consensus to either include or exclude both? An IP has tried to add Allen, and its hard for me to not edit war sense I know there is no good distinction between the two papers. Yet I'll be reverted if I add Allen and I'll be reverted if I'll remove Rosenfeld. jj (talk) 20:02, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

It seems more or less like some people use this article for something it is not made for, wikipedia is suposed to give people information. Not the information some people like. It is no dubt that Allens work should be here to, something else would not be very in the spirit of an enciclopedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Olehal09 (talkcontribs) 16:33, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
If you look through the most recent archive, I think there has been a fair amount of support for removing all individual studies from the article and focusing on reviews. I think we can come to consensus to remove both.--Trystan (talk) 17:12, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
We need to represent existing research in proportion to its prominence in secondary and tertiary sources. The outliers may not get a place at the table as WP:DUE and WP:FRINGE would apply. Also, consensus can exist without everyone agreeing. Consensus =/= unanimity. - MrX 17:53, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
I agree. Rivertorch (talk) 17:58, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
If we are relying on secondary and tertiary sources, I agree that it may make sense for us to mention the specific studies they canvass. At the moment, the Rosenfeld study is simply cited as a primary source.--Trystan (talk) 18:29, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
It wouldn't be very honest to say that the study made made Rosenfeld are more prominent than the reserch made by Allen. It is no dubt that Allen has taken his time and used a good population sample in his study. That much of the reserch quoted in the article haven't and still are beeing left alone. It is extremly unprofessional work you have done here, and something has to be done, it can't be this unbalanced and still be in an encyclipedia. --OleHal09 (talk) 22:25, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. To Mr. X's concern. WP:FRINGE isn't applicable where we have credible studies on both sides. "Hypotheses which have a substantial following but which critics describe as pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect; however it should not be described as unambiguously pseudoscientific while a reasonable amount of academic debate still exists on this point." We thus must not call one side "misrepresentation jj (talk) 21:43, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Further, the adding of one sentence describing a peer-reviewed and not discredited paper (Allen) while continuing to point out the societies that support the majority of papers does not violate WP:DUE; the key example given is that of a "flat earth"-- which is not supported by any peer-reviewed study, unlike the studies here that should be included As WP:DUE says, "[o]ther minority views may require much more extensive description of the majority view to avoid misleading the reader. " We should add one sentence (or maybe two) about Allen right after Rosenfeld. jj (talk) 21:43, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

What do we think, is Allen's paper a fringe paper? Those who suggested it was haven't responded to JasonJack or OleHal. That seems to be the only remaining justification for keeping Rosenfeld and omitting Allen. Otherwise we'd have a consensus to leave out both papers and focus on secondary sources. I don't think it's fringe, based on the guidelines in WP:FRINGE. Let's settle this and get on to more important things. I realize that some of us are more content to keep the status quo and revert any changes, but let's be fair here. TheArmadillo (talk) 03:03, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't necessarily think it's fringe. I cited the guideline because it helps clarify WP:DUE. I think that both Rosenfeld and Allen should be omitted unless we can find reliable (secondary) sources that cite their papers. - MrX 13:01, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
That's fair, thanks for your response. The feeling I get is that everyone except Roscelese is comfortable with leaving out both Allen and Rosenfeld for the time being. To me, this is good enough for a consensus. I'm going to remove Rosenfeld. If someone wants to add Rosenfeld, I think they should justify the decision here on the talk page first. TheArmadillo (talk) 19:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't believe I ever expressed any opposition to removing Rosenfeld, only to your (votre) repeated tendentious attempts to add Allen for the sake of "balance" after clearly failing to gain consensus to do so. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 02:30, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
My apologies. You never voted on the proposition to remove it, and you later said that we didn't have a consensus, when no one had actually opposed the idea. So I assumed you were the one who didn't support it. 184.151.222.120 (talk) 02:25, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Synthesis paper on Australian LGBT parenting[edit]

Has this synthesis paper been put into use in the article yet? It's a review of the prior Australian, and some international, studies done on the subject of LGBT parenting. This is the kind of top-level synthesis of other papers article that we look for, right? SilverserenC 23:28, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Children's outcomes sections[edit]

The first two paragraphs on children's outcomes in LGBT families is largely a discussion about legal difficulties that trans parents have. Although I understand this is an important component of a discussion of LGBT parenting, I'm confused as to why this is in the introduction to the section on children's outcomes. I thought that "children's outcomes" referred to how children do (how well they develop, their psychological health, etc) when raised by LGBT parents. Is it possible to move the text about legal difficulties of trans parents to the "Legal issues" section? I'm new to this Wikipedia editing business, so my apologies if I misunderstand. Biscotta99 (talk) 01:01, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

The stuff on trans parenting was added super recently in a huge edit and it's probably that no one has had the time or the energy to comb through the whole thing yet. Doesn't mean you're wrong. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 05:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Rv - Description of Regnerus study[edit]

"Discredited" is indeed an appropriate term for a study so generally rejected, including by its author's own institution and the journal which published it. Additionally, the study does purport to show the effects of same-sex parenting ("young adults raised by same-sex parents", from the study web site). A large part of the problem is that it makes these claims without the data to support it. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 05:02, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Have you read the article being linked to? The text supports "widely criticized" by citing a number of criticisms, but it does not directly support "discredited". I don't see how this is even arguable. Furthermore, did you read the Regnerus paper? It doesn't claim to say something about "same-sex households", it makes a claim about kids whose parents had had a same-sex relationship. The sentence as you left it is incorrect as an interpretation of the paper. As to your other edits, did you read what was being cited from the Allen paper? It's not the findings about graduation rates as before, it's a completely unrelated and entirely unobjectionable summary of all the studies. Also, did you read the paragraph I deleted? It has nothing to do with methodology, so it's inappropriate to include it in the section called "Methodology". Maybe there's somewhere else it would fit in the article, but that's not immediately apparent. I feel compelled to undo your revert, because all of your criticisms seem to be based on an incomplete review of the material.TheArmadillo (talk) 04:03, 3 August 2014 (UTC) Edit: As far as the Regnerus, the UT website does say "same-sex parenting" but the study itself is very clear, in both the title and the abstract. I'm just trying to go directly from the sources and not tell a narrative. TheArmadillo (talk) 04:14, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
My mistake re: the different Allen paper; I'll have to look at the newly added one separately. As for Regnerus - as I pointed out above, his data concerned parents who had had a same-sex relationship at any point (versus opposite-sex parents married throughout the whole childhood), but he refers constantly in the paper to "GLB families" etc. I think it's fair that you're saying the UT website description isn't technically part of the study, but I don't think it's fair to say that Regnerus himself didn't try to draw conclusions that were broader than his extremely poor dataset merited. That's actually one of the main reasons his study was discredited - UT's sociology department, ie. Regnerus's own department, called it fundamentally flawed and the Social Science Research audit, ie. from the journal in which it was published, found that it never should have made it through. And re: the Hicks paragraph - how about if we move it under "Sexual orientation and gender role adherence of children," which is the studies that it's about? –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 04:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
The Allen summary of the literature is in the same paper, but it's unconnected to his analysis of graduation rates. It just happens to be the most recent survey of LGBT parenting literature. I think it's uncontroversial, and very topical in the methodology section. As far as Regnerus, his claims were very clear for anyone who read the whole paper. He did not hide the fact that his data concerned kids whose parents had been in same-sex relationships, not just kids whose parents were gay. Out of thousands of families across the dataset, there were only two families where two gay parents stayed with a child for the eighteen years of their childhood. I don't know if it's fair for our only reference to his paper to refer to a characterization that was made more by his opponents than by him. Also, "purported" just feels a little loaded. It might be worth adding an extra sentence just to give clarity and in order both not to mischaracterize the paper and to explain the flaws. I still don't think we have any sources that support "discredited", at least in light of a number of researchers who said his methods were no worse than standard social science research. "Refuted by most researchers" would be accurate, I think. I'm fine if the Hicks paragraph is moved to the other section. TheArmadillo (talk) 06:41, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Should polyamorous parenting be mentioned?[edit]

Polyamory has been in the news with more frequency lately. The famous 'married' lesbian throuple from Massachusetts is expecting a child, from what I understand. There are at least 500,000 poly families in the US, according to certain surveys, many of whom have kids. There's no article on polyamorous parenting yet, so should we mention it briefly here? Especially since around a third of poly people identify as LGBT as well. TheArmadillo (talk) 00:32, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

No. Polyamory and the topic of this article are not related. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 03:15, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
The trouble is that groups like the lesbian throuple I mentioned *are* LGBT, as well as polyamorous. There's quite a bit of overlap. Not to mention the fact that LGBT is more and more being seen as an outdated term, because of the many sexual minorities that aren't included. If poly parenting definitely does fall out of the scope of this article, is there an article where it would fit? TheArmadillo (talk) 00:30, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
TheArmadillo did you see Polyamory#Parenting? Zad68 04:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
No, I missed that! Thanks. TheArmadillo (talk) 15:34, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Face-smile.svg No problem! Zad68 15:59, 10 August 2014 (UTC)