Talk:La Jolla

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject California / Southern California (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject California, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of California on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Southern California task force (marked as Mid-importance).
 
WikiProject San Diego (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject San Diego, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics related to San Diego and San Diego County on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Important Tips Before Editing This Article[edit]

Please review the following to get a better idea of what you should add to this article:

  1. Please follow the Wikipedia USCITY guideline for layout and content.
  2. Please ensure a person meets Wikipedia Notability requirements before adding to the "Notable People" section.

Please review the following before editing:

  1. Please document your source by citing a reference to prove your text is verifiable.
  2. Please add text that has a neutral point of view instead of sounding like an advertisement.
  3. Please read the "Editing, Creating, and Maintaining Articles" chapter from the book Wikipedia : The Missing Manual, ISBN 9780596515164.

SbmeirowTalk • 23:37, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

La Jolla is not a city per se, but a community within a city (San Diego), so not everything on Wikipedia USCITY can/should be applied. Zzyzx11 (talk) 06:49, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes, La Jolla is not a city. Why is this here? --Born2cycle (talk) 08:16, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be silly to call the guideline "US CITY / TOWN / VILLAGE / CDP / UNINCORPORATED COMMUNITY / AND NUMEROUS OTHER NAMES FOR A CITY Guideline"? I think the point of the guideline is that if something looks like a city or community, then the guideline should be used as a basis of how all related articles should look. Depending on the type of city, some articles do need other types of section added, and the guideline isn't hard-in-stone, but section names in all of these types of articles should follow a common order, like "History" first. Please state why you think a specific "city" should not follow this guideline. • SbmeirowTalk • 09:13, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Please state why you think someone else thinks the guideline should not be followed. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:45, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Although there are good elements listed on WP:USCITY, it is just a guideline, and not everything listed can and should be followed. And it even states at the top "there are no requirements to follow it in editing". If you want to follow the recommended sections names and order, that is fine, but it also says that "sections may be moved around to a different order". Furthermore, the essay Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Settlements: Article structure was specifically written to address articles on settlements like La Jolla, that are not cities per se. Zzyzx11 (talk) 01:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
  1. In Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Settlements: Article structure, it says "This guideline is a supplement to specific guidelines on writing about U.K. cities and towns, U.S. cities, Canadian cities and Indian cities. This guideline does not replace those, but amalgamates the information in order to serve as advice for writing about settlements not in those geographic regions.", which appears to target countries othan than UK, US, Canada, India. Since "La Jolla" is still located in US, then WP:USCITY guideline should be the primary guideline for it. • SbmeirowTalk • 05:46, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
  2. The Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Settlements: Article structure, only has 10 edits, hasn't been touched in over 1 year, and lacks content (compared to WP:USCITY). • SbmeirowTalk • 05:46, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
  3. The first edit comment in the history for Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Settlements: Article structure, it says that it is based on WP:USCITY.
  4. In Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/Settlements: Article structure, I'm not sure if the "Notable residents" section is a mistake, since the WP:USCITY article uses the section name "Notable people". Many people have been renaming sections to "Notable people" for well over a year. • SbmeirowTalk • 05:46, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────La Jolla is not a city; it is a community within the city of San Diego. The USCITY guideline gives important advice but because La Jolla is not a city, the whole guideline is not applicable. Binksternet (talk) 18:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

When is La Jolla not La Jolla?[edit]

There are several references in this article to buildings and institutions that are actually located east of I-5, in University City - and thus not in La Jolla by any formal designation - and yet are considered to be part of La Jolla by many people. Examples: La Jolla Country Day School, and the Mormon Temple (whose wikipedia page only says that it is "near" La Jolla).

I know there have been arguments about UCSD (which I believe is clearly in La Jolla - that was even its original name). But how do we deal with things that have a mental or traditional connection to La Jolla, but aren't actually there?

--MelanieN (talk) 02:56, 7 September 2009 (UTC)MelanieN

In the absence of a response, I clarified that La Jolla Country Day is not really in La Jolla (I thought the name made it reasonable to mention it in the article), and I deleted the Mormon Temple. --MelanieN (talk) 23:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)MelanieN
It seems to me that the only area east of I-5 that is part of any definition of La Jolla is north of LJ Village Drive, west of Regents, and south of Genesee, thus including La Jolla Scripps Memorial hospital and the eastern part of UCSD over there, but not LJ Country Day. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
But LJCDS' official address is 9490 Genesee (or Regents now after all that reconstruction) in La Jolla 92037. So even if it's not geographically in La Jolla, it kind of is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.186.133 (talk) 19:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

the section called "Development"[edit]

Would anybody mind if I simply deleted the subsection titled "Development"? It basically says nothing, is completely unsourced, and amounts to community puffery (and the fact that it is mostly true does not change it from being puffery). If someone wants to keep this section, then please provide some citations. --MelanieN (talk) 16:23, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Ugh! Delete. Binksternet (talk) 17:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
I concur with removal. Alanraywiki (talk) 17:15, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Done. --MelanieN (talk) 01:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Protection[edit]

I see that protection was added to this article because of recent edit warring and vandalism. But was it FULLY protected, instead of semi-protected? I think full protection is unwarranted. All of the recent vandalism was done by ISPs, so semi-protection should be enough. Right now it looks as if even regular members like me can't edit it. I think that's excessive. --MelanieN (talk) 01:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

You can request the protection be downgraded at WP:RFPP. --Cybercobra (talk) 02:09, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. I started out by simply asking the editor who put in the protection, on their talk page, why they chose this option. They may have had a reason I don't know about. --MelanieN (talk) 02:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
That was odd. I didn't notice it until now. I wonder why? I asked for semi-protection because of the POV edits.--Jojhutton (talk) 02:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
There, it's fixed. The same editor has now changed it to semi-protection. Apparently that was what they intended all along. --MelanieN (talk) 05:33, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, that was a mistake on my part. I clicked on the wrong part of the protection form. I apologize for the distress this caused. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:18, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

"Wealthy"[edit]

The issue is over the first sentence... "La Jolla is a hilly seaside resort community...". Previously, it was "La Jolla is a wealthy seaside resort community...". Repeated attempts to bring back the adjective "wealthy" in lieu of "hilly" has not been successful. Please advise, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.186.133 (talk) 04:19, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it has always said "hilly". Various attempts to change it to "wealthy" have been repeatedly deleted, since "wealthy" is unsourced and non-neutral (it's "POV," in Wikipedia slang, meaning pushing a particular "point of view" - an opinion rather than encyclopedic factual material). If you can't provide a reliable-source reference to prove that La Jolla is properly referred to as a "wealthy" community, then don't put it in.
A word of warning: Don't let yourself get sucked into "repeated attempts" to change something. That's called an "edit war," and it is very much frowned upon. It can even get you banned from posting if you persist in it. If you find yourself in this kind of situation - where you keep changing something and someone keeps changing it back - then do what you did just now: bring it to the Discussion page to be resolved. --MelanieN (talk) 05:28, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Can we use one or some of the following, in order to add "wealthy" into the sentence? Also what are your thoughts on Rancho Santa Fe's page, specifically the opening paragraphs regarding this same issue.

http://www.housingwire.com/2008/09/09/la-jolla-tops-list-as-most-expensive-housing-market-in-nation

http://www.luxist.com/2009/09/25/la-jolla-is-the-most-expensive-real-estate-market/

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/hpci_data/index.html

http://www.allbusiness.com/company-activities-management/company-structures/10633606-1.html

http://www.accesssandiego.com/san-diego-coastal/la-jolla-real-estate/

http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2009/06/15/beaches-and-freeways-how-coastal-values-have-fallen/?KEYWORDS=la+jolla

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-137020111.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=4jsn3_VEvBsC&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=La+Jolla+wealthy&source=bl&ots=KVW_HXoGt6&sig=pH9SawHAYkbwU3UiAC52QPwmLaU&hl=en&ei=fC2JTNKIDoK8lQfLs8yVDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCUQ6AEwBDhQ#v=onepage&q=La%20Jolla%20wealthy&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.186.133 (talk) 18:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC) 24.59.186.133 (talk) 19:06, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm uninvolved, but I'll say this: Just take care that, when using POV terms cited to a source, that the text you write attributes the POV term to the source in addition to just citing it. You don't want to make it appear that Wikipedia is taking a position on the point of view. ~Amatulić (talk) 20:23, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

"Actually, it has always said 'hilly'".. Melanie, that's not true.

  • February 1, 2004 "an upscale, coastal community"
  • February 15, 2005 "highly upscale, coastal community"
  • April 21, 2005 "coastal community" ("highly upscale" removed by Yours Truly)
  • January 10, 2007 "seaside resort community"
  • April 8, 2008 "wealthy seaside resort community" (wealthy first added... still no hilly)
  • November 16, 2008 "a hilly neighborhood in ..." "is a wealthy seaside resort community" (hilly introduced first time)
  • November 17, 2008 "wealthy and hilly seaside resort" (combined "wealthy" and "hilly", by Yours Truly)
  • November 18, 2008 "is a wealthy and hilly seaside resort community" (combined into one lead sentence by Yours Truly)
  • February 15, 2009 "wealthy and exclusive seaside resort community" (hilly dropped for exclusive)
  • February 15, 2009 "a seaside resort community" ("wealthy and exclusive" dropped)
  • February 15, 2009 "a wealthy and exclusive seaside resort community" ("wealthy and exclusive" restored)
  • March 31, 2009 "wealthy [1] seaside resort community" (note citation)
  • December 7, 2009 "a wealthy[1] seaside resort community" (no change... still wealthy and not hilly)
  • May 11, 2010 "a wealthy[1] seaside resort community" (no change... still wealthy and not hilly)
  • June 12, 2010 "a wealthy[2] and hilly seaside resort community" ("hilly" reintroduced first time since dropped on Feburary 15, 2009)
  • August 26, 2010 "a hilly seaside resort community" ("wealthy" dropped first time since added in 2008)

The idea of describing it as wealthy goes back to 2005 if you accept "upscale" as a synonym for "wealthy", which I suggest is reasonable. In comparison, "hilly", which had a short 4-month stint in 08-09, and then dropped for 15 months until June of this year, is much newer.

Anyway, even as the editor who originally took out the "upscale" reference, I think the sources support the description. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the history. I personally never had a problem with describing it as "wealthy" or "upscale," but since it has become controversial I agree it needs a citation. I don't think ANY of the citations suggested by User:24.59.186.133 qualify as "Reliable Sources" but I will try to find one. And I agree with Amatulic that is isn't enough to provide a list of house prices or something - the source has to actually SAY that La Jolla is a wealthy community. It shouldn't be hard to find such a source, because (let's face it) we all know it is. I'll see what I can do. --MelanieN (talk) 00:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
I suggest comparing this article with those of other "wealthy communities", such as Brookville, New York, Belvedere, California, and Palm Beach, Florida. See Highest-income places in the United States.   Will Beback  talk  00:37, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
OK, I found some solid, Reliable Source references for "upscale," and added them to the opening sentence. Everybody happy now? 0;-D --MelanieN (talk) 00:50, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and just a comment about "exclusive" which I see was in the article earlier: that's a term that should NEVER be used as a synonym for wealthy or upscale in my opinion. Even without knowing any history it makes you wonder, just who is being excluded? And if you DO know a little history you know that the term (when applied to a neighborhood) refers to the exclusion clauses that used to be in some deeds, preventing the sale of the property to "undesirables" such as non-whites or Jews. In a 21st century context the term and the concept really grate, and I look forward to the day when "exclusive" disappears from our vocabulary as meaning a desirable or wealthy neighborhood. OK, I'm off my soapbox now. --MelanieN (talk) 00:55, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
As a compromise, can we just use the term "affluent", as noted in the following, and call it even? The Belvedere (in particular), Woodside, Rancho Santa Fe, and Coto de Caza pages were good examples to base the La Jolla page. Consequently, would it be appropriate to add back the "neighborhoods" section or a new section specifically addressing La Jolla's average median home sale price (or ranking within "highest income communities"). I note that in the above section "highest income places in the United States" and the Rancho Santa Fe page, they all specifically address these points. Thoughts?

http://www.sandiegocoastlife.com/communities/san-diego-coast/communities-la-jolla.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.186.133 (talk) 02:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

As far as "affluent" and that source: Nope. "San Diego Coast Life" is just a travel-guide website - it is not a WP:reliable source. "Affluent" would be a fine word to describe La Jolla, but only if it is properly sourced. A section on home sale prices and such would be fine, down in the article somewhere. --MelanieN (talk) 03:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Anything that says "Wealthy" or "Affluent" is not a WP:NPOV. Even with a source, information that can be looked at subjectively, is POV. As it stands now, the article seems to say that only the wealthy or affluent live in La Jolla, which is just not true. Yet is is objective to say that La Jolla is hilly, because it can be gauged as being so.--Jojhutton (talk) 03:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
There is no question that La Jolla is "upscale"; that doesn't imply that only rich people live there (as for example "exclusive" would). In any case, there are so many sources saying "upscale", including Reliable Sources like news articles, that the word meets Wikipedia's criteria as sourced. If we found similar Reliable Sources saying "affluent", that would be OK as well. (So far none of the sources proposed for "affluent" qualify as Reliable Sources.) --MelanieN (talk) 14:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
So how is it that the Belvedere, CA page gets "Belvedere is an affluent town in Marin County, California, United States", yet with no sources cited. On Coto de Caza, CA's page, it says "...is one of Orange County's oldest and most expensive master planned communities" with no sources cited. Likewise, in neighboring Rancho Santa Fe, CA, the RSF page says "at $245,631, it is one of the highest income communities in the United States with at least 1,000 households " with no sources attached. As a community, we need to address the discrepencies between the La Jolla page and other comparable areas (and their respective pages). Even San Carlos, CA opening paragraph says "...it is an affluent small residential suburb located between Belmont to the north and Redwood City to the south" with no sources attributed at all. Likewise, Montecito CA: "Montecito is among the wealthiest communities in the United States" with no sources. So how do these pages define "affluence" or "wealth" without sources cited? We need to make this right. We need to make this fair. 24.59.186.133 (talk) 17:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
There is no shortage of lack of citations in WP articles. It's a never-ending process to make it better. Are you part of that? --Born2cycle (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I plan to go through each of those pages above and delete their references to "wealthy" or "affluent" entirely. In the meantime, I am going to identify qualified sources that will allow us to define La Jolla as an "affluent" seaside resort community. In addition, I am starting to draft a new section or introductory paragraph that mentions La Jolla as the most-expensive real estate market in the nation... as we have already identified qualified sources for. We will make this right, we will make this fair. 24.59.186.133 (talk) 17:57, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Please don't put that into the introductory paragraph of this article. I think it belongs in this article, assuming proper sourcing - but it should be down in the body of the article, not in the intro. And I would like to see any source that defines La Jolla as THE most expensive real estate market in the nation; I doubt that. Thanks. By the way, why is it so important to you to use the word "affluent" instead of "upscale"? Aren't they pretty much the same? --MelanieN (talk) 18:30, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
My mistake, here it is [1] - and in Business Week which is clearly a Reliable Source. "La Jolla, Calif., the San Diego community perched above the Pacific Ocean, now has America's highest-priced homes, according to Coldwell Banker's 2008 Home Price Comparison Index released on Sept. 9." That's comparing using a standard 4 bedroom house; I think there must be other places that have far more expensive ACTUAL home sale prices, based on indexes which include huge mansions; but still, on this standardized measure La Jolla wins. I'll add it to the article myself when I have time. --MelanieN (talk) 18:42, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
If our sources discuss home prices then perhaps that's what we should refer to, rather than vague terms like "affluent" or "wealthy". There are currently sections on the economics and the demographics. Unusually high home prices could fit nicely next to one of those.   Will Beback  talk  20:38, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
We can do both - discuss the home prices and describe the community as "upscale" - because both are supported by Reliable Sources. --MelanieN (talk) 16:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
If you wanted to see source that defines La Jolla as "the" most expensive real estate market in the nation, you shouldn't doubt that because I already listed above several links supporting that (http://www.housingwire.com/2008/09/09/la-jolla-tops-list-as-most-expensive-housing-market-in-nation). That study was done by Coldwell Banker (which I believe is quite reputable itself) which clearly states that. In addition, there were two other sources (including CNN Money) which back that statement up. And yes, you were correct to include the BusinessWeek article, although it is not as direct in saying that as the other sources were. 24.59.186.133 (talk) 21:04, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
OK, I added the home prices information - in a new Demographics section. --MelanieN (talk) 16:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Move request notice[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion. - GTBacchus(talk) 23:44, 31 December 2010 (UTC)



Maybe not hold The above discussion is on hold while the overall naming convention for U.S. neighborhoods is debated at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names). However, during the original discussion at Talk:Allied Gardens, San Diego, California, a consensus seemed to be developing to rename this one article to La Jolla regardless of the outcome of the overall discussion of San Diego neighborhood names. The feeling was that "La Jolla" is well enough known nationally not to need disambiguation by the addition of "San Diego, California". In so listing it would be comparable to other extremely well-known neighborhoods like Haight-Ashbury (listed without "San Francisco") or Hollywood (listed without "Los Angeles"). Even if the overall consensus is to retain the format Neighborhoodname, City, exceptions are made for very well known neighborhoods, and so it seems like that this article would get renamed regardless of how the overall discussion is concluded. Would it be possible to proceed with this one move even while the overall discussion continues? --MelanieN (talk) 00:37, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

To give an opposing view, I'll say first that this is the English Wikipedia, not the United States Wikipedia. This encyclopedia is an international project with a world-wide audience, much broader than just the United States. Being well known nationally doesn't seem like a good criterion for renaming. Of the other examples mentioned, Haight-Ashbury may well get renamed to Haight-Ashbury, San Francisco, California. Hollywood will likely not get renamed because the quantity and global reach of products continuously emanating from Hollywood cause Hollywood to be known world-wide — a distinction not enjoyed by La Jolla. ~Amatulić (talk) 06:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I'm the nominator of the proposed move in question. The rationale for moving all forty San Diego neighborhoods, including La Jolla, to their "plain name", is explained in detail there, and has nothing to do with any of them being "well-known". Being "well-known" is never a criteria in naming articles in Wikipedia, except relative to other uses of the same name when there are conflicts. The forty selected for this proposal were chosen specifically because there are no conflicts for their names in Wikipedia. Naming policy specifically dictates making titles only as precise as necessary to avoid conflicts.

The point is this. If "La Jolla" was not a name of a San Diego community, but a name of a book, a film, a TV episode name, or any place outside of the U.S., then the title of the article would be La Jolla. So just because it happens to be the name of a San Diego neighborhood the title needs to be the name plus some other information about the topic? Why? --Born2cycle (talk) 16:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

So, Born2cycle, are you supporting or opposing my suggestion that we move this one page to La Jolla immediately, even while the broader discussion is ongoing? --MelanieN (talk) 16:44, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I would support it if there was an official request filed at WP:RM specific to this article. Without that, I'm not sure how you determine there is consensus in support of the move in a way that won't get challenged in the future.(NOTE: Since this is being discussed here at mentioned at the larger discussion, that should be good enough --Born2cycle (talk) 22:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)).

In the mean time, I don't understand why anyone would support this move without supporting the other 39 moves unless they believe being "known nationwide" is somehow a criteria that is relevant here (for which I know of no precedent or basis). --Born2cycle (talk) 17:36, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

  • Support. I searched on Google for possible ambiguities around the world, especially in Spanish-speaking areas, and found a number of hotels, condos, apartments and restaurants with La Jolla as part or all of their name, but I did not find a residential area or any notable contender. I think La Jolla by itself is the right name for this article. Binksternet (talk) 17:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Support This name seems to be an irritant.   Will Beback  talk  22:04, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Support La Jolla, San Diego, CaliforniaLa Jolla. If the larger general proposal is approved, this is moot, as this move will be part of that. If it's not, specific support here should trump general opposition there. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I trust this will not be used as a precedent for any other article titles.   Will Beback  talk  02:21, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this discussion overrides the larger discussion at Talk:Allied Gardens, San Diego, but I will accept it so long as it is not used as a precedent.   Will Beback  talk  02:22, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Allied Gardens, San Diego, California which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 23:16, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

economic engine[edit]

This sentence in the intro is misleading: "The economic engines of La Jolla are tourism, dining, and shopping.[4][10][11]"

It is supported by three citations, but each reference obviously caters to tourists, and so understandably focus only the tourism, dining and shopping aspects. Downtown La Jolla also has a myriad of different types of businesses that are unrelated to tourism. We need a reference for that, but I wanted to bring attention to the problem. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

You could describe the other businesses as "local-serving retail" as has been done in other neighborhoods. Are there other types of business that should be included? Are things like the golf course and the private schools "economic engines"? --MelanieN (talk) 17:51, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I wasn't thinking local retail, but that too. I was thinking medical (both practice and research), bio-engineering, financial, legal and software... off the top of my head. I'm sure those all together contribute much more to the GDP than tourism related stuff. But we need citations for that. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:03, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Hmmm... that's certainly true if we include UCSD (as the definition here does) and the mesa area surrounding UCSD. The university itself is probably the biggest economic engine of all for that larger area. It depends how we define the area covered by this article; I was thinking more in line with the the city's designation: "The City of San Diego defines the community's eastern boundary as Gilman Drive, former Highway US 101, with the exception of some of the University of California, San Diego (UCSD)[13] and the northern boundary as La Jolla Village Drive.[14]" But the article itself defines La Jolla as extending all the way to Del Mar, which is probably the more common understanding. That would include those mesa areas such as Scripps and Torrey Pines - where as you say medical care, research, biotech, etc. are dominant. So you are right, that kind of thing should be added. The current "economic engine" sentence seems to be referring only to La Jolla Village.
By defining itself as reaching all the way to Del Mar, it appears that this article has reached out to include the city-designated neighborhood of Torrey Pines, San Diego - in addition to the non-city-jurisdiction areas that include UCSD, Scripps, the VA, etc. which are commonly understood as part of La Jolla. Do you think that is justified, or should it say the northern boundary is the Torrey Pines neighborhood, or should it define Torrey Pines as a kind of part of Greater La Jolla? This should probably be clarified somehow in the article. --MelanieN (talk) 15:01, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I wasn't thinking about UCSD at all, though wouldn't necessarily exclude the companies and research facilities up there by the golf course (regardless of whether the city includes that as part of the "La Jolla" or "University" neighborhoods, these entities certainly consider themselves part of La Jolla, and so does UCSD). Anyway, I was primarily thinking about "downtown" La Jolla, which has a lot of all of that too, including, for example, The La Jolla Bioengineering Institute down on Coast Blvd and Net Sapiens, a VoIP system developer/provider, on Kline. In other words, all the traffic going into downtown La Jolla in the morning and leaving at 5pm every weekday is not primarily comprised of retail sales clerks, waiters and hotel maids. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Hey, go for it! You might find some objective information in the La Jolla Community Plan which is here. Meanwhile I'll give some thought to how to clarify the questions about the borders or extent of the community. --MelanieN (talk) 02:39, 14 January 2011 (UTC)


Timeline[edit]

The format of the timeline is inconsistent. Sometimes there are complete sentences, sometimes not. Sometimes the facts begin with capitals, sometimes not (i.e. "The Bishop's School). Does anyone know the Wikipedia standard for creating such a timeline? If so, I would be willing to edit, if not, I think the timeline should be deleted. Some of it is interesting, but some of it isn't really that unique information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdbulldog (talkcontribs) 03:58, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Keep timeline. I agree it should be consistent in style. I don't think there are standards regarding this, but that's no reason for this article to not have one. I like it - because it gives the reader an at-a-glance historical overview. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:41, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Suggest renaming to La Jolla, California[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. It is in San Diego and California but most of the editors commenting were not convinced that either of these facts needed to be in the article title. DrKiernan (talk) 18:08, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


La JollaLa Jolla, California – procedural tagging of a discussion which has already been open for 11 days, without being listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:04, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

This neighborhood, unlike, say Hollywood, is referred to in reliable secondary sources outside San Diego as "La Jolla, San Diego," or as "La Jolla, California."

  • NY Times: La Jolla search. Here, for example: "Mitt Romney's home in La Jolla, an enclave of San Diego"
  • Merriam Webster calls it, simply: "an NW section of San Diego, California (entry link)
  • USA Today calls its "La Jolla, California" except where the reference to San Diego is already set: USA Today search
  • Science magazine calls it La Jolla, California, except where context of San Diego/SoCal is already set. ScienceMag search
  • Scientific American calls it La Jolla, California. See Scientific American search
  • Nature call it La Jolla, California. For my search I went to nature.com, searched for "La Jolla" and filtered by marking the checkbox on "Journals : Nature" to the left.
  • The BBC calls it La Jolla, California. See BBC search
  • The London time calls it mostly "La Jolla, California" and, at times, "La Jolla, San Diego." Times search
  • Wikipedia's own links largely use either "La Jolla, California" or "suburb of San Diego" unless context makes it clear the article is talking of California.

The reason I focus on science magazines is because the place has quite a few science-related institutions: UC, Scripps, Salks. La Jolla, California seems to be the internationally used name (Nature, BBC, London) and also widespread outside of California itself. Churn and change (talk) 16:45, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose. "La Jolla, California" implies that La Jolla is a city; that is how American cities are styled at Wikipedia, per WP:USPLACE. But La Jolla is not a city; it is a neighborhood of the city of San Diego. All other neighborhoods of the city are styled as [[Neighborhood, San Diego]] (for example Point Loma, San Diego; Hillcrest, San Diego; etc.); accordingly, this article used to be titled "La Jolla, San Diego". Per the above Move Request Notice, a consensus was reached in December 2010 to drop "San Diego" from the article title and leave it as simply "La Jolla", on the grounds that La Jolla is sufficiently well known not to need the modifier - similar to "Hollywood". The fact that some sources incorrectly style it "La Jolla, California" is not a reason to give it a misleading title; I'm sure you can find plenty of sources for "Hollywood, California" too. La Jolla, California already exists as a redirect to this page, but that is all it should be. The article title should stay "La Jolla" as per the December 2010 consensus. It should definitely NOT be given an inaccurate title suggesting that it is a city in California. --MelanieN (talk) 16:57, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
These are not "some" sources. These are strong, reliable, secondary soruces. Where is the data to support the statement: "La Jolla is sufficiently well known not to need the modifier"? I have produced the data to the opposite effect. The fundamental guideline is to use place names consistent with how secondary sources report them. If "Nature" and "Science" and "BBC" and "NY Times" do not think "La Jolla, California" is misleading, why do we? Churn and change (talk) 17:32, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Also try a Google Scholar search on La Jolla. It is almost invariably, "La Jolla, California." As to the 2010 consensus, 3 people supported the change, one person opposed it, and the central argument in support was the "well-known by this name" one. Churn and change (talk) 17:41, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Have you looked at WP:USPLACE? How do you justify your suggestion to name this neighborhood as if it was a city, when it is not? I doubt if there is a single instance on Wikipedia of a neighborhood being named in this fashion. Either the city name is appended to the neighborhood, or nothing is appended. Certainly not the state. --MelanieN (talk) 17:54, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I think the whole point is that La Jolla is an exception to WP:USPLACE. The question then is what is the nature of that exception. All secondary sources I can find indicate the exception is of the nature "community name, state name" with some instances of "community name, city name." The claim that just the community name alone is what secondary sources typically use to refer to La Jolla is not tenable. Churn and change (talk) 18:02, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately, many of the examples you cited do NOT support your proposal. For example the New York Times article you cited does not use the phrase "La Jolla, California" anywhere, and neither do any of the other hits on your New York Times search for La Jolla, that I could find. The USA Today search uses "La Jolla, California" rarely - just in a couple of sports articles. Merriam Webster does not support this usage. These Reliable Sources, which YOU cited, follow the AP style guide, as does Wikipedia. The AP style guide prescribes the usage "Name, State" for cities. Not for neighborhoods. --MelanieN (talk) 18:06, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Where NY Times does not use La Jolla, California, it mentions San Diego. How many uses are there of La Jolla standalone, without San Diego or California in context, unlike, say, mentions to Hollywood? If you are arguing this should be La Jolla, San Diego, California, well, I am ok with that. What is the support for saying "La Jolla" standalone is how RSes refer to this? NY Times, MWM use La Jolla in San Diego; the science mags and the international sources use largely La Jolla, California and, at times, La Jolla, San Diego. Churn and change (talk) 18:23, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
OIC! So you are not so much arguing for La Jolla, California, but rather arguing against La Jolla as a standalone name? I would have no problem with a return to the title La Jolla, San Diego (the word "California" has been dropped from "San Diego" per USPLACE). I am neutral on a proposed move to La Jolla, San Diego, while I remain strongly opposed to La Jolla, California. OK, now that we have made our positions clear (I think), let's see what others say. --MelanieN (talk) 19:15, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
To clarify: I prefer no move (IOW, to keep the name as La Jolla) but will go along with La Jolla, San Diego if that is the consensus here. I strongly oppose La Jolla, California which was the original proposal here. Probably not an issue as I haven't yet seen anyone else support that name. --MelanieN (talk) 02:40, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There is no city or independent place named La Jolla, only a district or neighborhood of San Diego. Doesn't matter how many wrong sources can be dredged up to support the position; we all know that they are wrong, and we should not perpetuate the error. Binksternet (talk) 22:19, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
So you are not opposed to moving back to La Jolla, San Diego? Which, administratively, is what does exist. My main issue is no RSes uses La Jolla standalone outside of California. There is a qualification of either San Diego, or California or, at times, Southern California. The analogy to Hollywood and Haight-Ashbury are false, since they are often used with no further qualification outside California too. Churn and change (talk) 23:39, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
I prefer to see it stay at simply "La Jolla" unless and until a very good competitor for that title comes along in English usage. Binksternet (talk) 01:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Move to La Jolla, San Diego this is the standard form for non-city subdivisions of large cities.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:52, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Agree A notability-based exception for La Jolla doesn't seem to be warranted; at least nobody has produced any evidence for that (standalone usage in reliable sources outside California). Churn and change (talk) 01:57, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Apologies, but I am striking out your bolded word "agree", so that it can't be misread as a second !vote for the move. As proposer here, your "agreement" with the move is already on the record.--MelanieN (talk) 02:40, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I see no reason to argue about this all over again. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:09, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Support per long standing naming convention for neighborhoods and the excellent case established by the nom. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:51, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Question for clarity: Are you supporting a move to La Jolla, California as proposed by nom? Or a move to La Jolla, San Diego as per the rest of San Diego's neighborhoods? --MelanieN (talk) 01:14, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose move to either "La Jolla, California" and especially to the contrived "La Jolla, San Diego", primarily because either would be unnecessary disambiguation. The WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for La Jolla is undisputably this community (even if it's moved, La Jolla will continue to redirect here), and the most common name used to refer to this topic is "La Jolla". Yes, "La Jolla, California" is common too, but in WP using that form implies that La Jolla is a city in California, which would be misleading. "La Jolla, San Diego" is an abomination which is not commonly used in any context. If disambiguation was required, then it could be defended, but that's not the case (and yes, other San Diego communities with unique names should be titled without disambiguation as well). In short, no good reason to move. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:17, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Support move to "La Jolla, San Diego" (assuming this is the format used by other large cities), even more important is the naming for all neighborhoods within a specific large city should ALL use the same naming format, which La Jolla article is NOT the same naming format as other neighborhoods within San Diego. More important to me is wikipedia should determine a specific naming format for neighborhoods within USA cities, then ALL neighborhood articles stick to that format, no exceptions. • SbmeirowTalk • 05:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
Regarding current usage at Wikipedia, that was discussed here: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names)/Archives/2010/November#Neighborhoods of U.S. cities. See the subsection "Current practice". I surveyed 10 of the largest cities in the U.S. and found eight of them use "Neighborhoodname, Cityname" (adding the statename when required by USPLACE). New York uses "Neighborhoodname, Boroughname". Atlanta uses parentheses: "Neighborhoodname (Atlanta)". Honolulu uses mostly just "Neighborhoodname" without the city. Most of the cities that do add the cityname have a few exceptions (like La Jolla) where the neighborhoodname alone is the title. Will Beback posted a far more comprehensive survey of neighborhood names here: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names)/US neighborhood survey. --MelanieN (talk) 14:39, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
For most topics we disambiguate only when necessary. For example, any film, TV series or person with a unique name has an article title with that name only. Only if the name conflicts with other uses, and is not deemed to be the primary use of that name, is it disambiguated (with "(film)", "(occupation)", etc.) Even most city articles are disambiguated only when necessary... unless they happen to be in the United States (and even then at least cities on the AP list, like San Francisco, are not disambiguated). Why should U.S. cities (and neighborhoods) get this exceptional treatment? Why is some obscure city in Hungary like Esztergom fine to not be clarified with location information, but Sacramento, California must be despite the equal uniqueness of "Sacramento"? It makes no sense. Why is adding location info to "La Jolla" justified because it's not known worldwide as just "La Jolla", but "Esztergom" is fine? That's not consistency, that's insanity.

I reject the argument for unnecessary disambiguation of US cities, and, by extension, for neighborhoods. --Born2cycle (talk) 15:13, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Your feelings on this subject are well known, but this is not the place to rewrite USPLACE. The question here is whether to retain the name "La Jolla" or to add the city or state. You prefer to retain the name "La Jolla", for reasons you have explained. My analysis indicated that the name "La Jolla" is acceptable per current Wikipedia usage, i.e., that there is some precedent for having a neighborhood name as a standalone title. In other words, on this subject, we agree. Let's leave it at that. --MelanieN (talk) 15:28, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose See above closed move. No reason to move it back. There are still not any conflicting "La Jolla's" anywhere. If it was a county, city, or town that would be another matter, but it is not. Note to User:BrownHairedGirl - the above was just chit chat and did not need to be listed at WP:RM. Apteva (talk) 07:09, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose The current title is unambiguous. There is no other valid reason to lengthen the name more than what it actually is. 71.21.81.61 (talk) 05:26, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. No need for "California"; the "La Jolla" is unambiguous. As well, the community known as La Jolla is within the of San Diego, making it more La Jolla, San Diego than La Jolla, California. Binksternet (talk) 15:43, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
  • You already listed an oppose above. DrKiernan (talk) 18:08, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Antisemitism[edit]

Undue Weight?

Over half of the History section of this article is devoted to Antisemitism which seems excessive. This Antisemitism section appears to put undue weight on a single historical issue while all other historical issues, events, people, locations, architecture, time periods, etc. are either quickly mentioned or ignored in the article. This is in violation of Wikipedia's "undue weight" policy. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:UNDUE#Due_and_undue_weight )

The Antisemitism section states that these types of "'restrictive covenants' were once fairly common throughout the United States." Other history of La Jolla should be greatly expanded or the Antisemitism section should be edited down to the size of other similarly significant sub-sections.

Exceptional Claims Require Exceptional Sources

Wikipedia policy states that "exceptional claims require exceptional sources". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:REDFLAG#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources

This Antisemitism section and its cited sources make exceptional claims of a long term and widespread secret conspiracy. Personally I believe that antisemitism occurred in La Jolla because someone I trusted told me so. But the sources cited have apparent conflict of interests such as religious journals and legal opinions which are less than the multiple unbiased high-quality mainstream sources required by Wikipedia standards for exceptional claims.

This American Jewish Historical Society booklet has been the only original source for all of the sources cited (Jewish Journal article, La Jolla Historical Society exhibit and the La Jolla Light articles) in this Antisemitism sub-section. This whole section seems to be relying on one original source that could be considered to have a conflict of interest since it is reported religious discrimination published by a religious organization (American Jewish Historical Society). I really do hope that there are more original sources or this whole antisemitism sub-section may need major editing. I still believe that there was antisemitism in La Jolla but other than this potentially biased American Jewish Historical Society source we need to find some extraordinary sources to substantiate this extraordinary claim of widespread long term antisemitism in La Jolla. Harpervi (talk) 08:14, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Possible Edits

This paragraph about the world-renown mathematician Jacob Bronowski, while very interesting, should be removed because it does nothing to prove that longterm and widespread antisemitism occured in La Jolla which is the point of the section.Harpervi (talk) 10:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC) In fact, it is a common practice even today for clubs and organizations to require Letters of Recommendation from prospective members. The San Diego Yacht Club is a local example of such Letter of Recommendation requrement. http://www.sdyc.org/about/membership_process Maybe the contributor of this story can cite reliable sources proving that non-Jewish usually did not have to provide Letters of Recommendations. The source provided for this story about Jacob Bronowski states at the end of the article that its research came from the booklet by Mary Ellen Stratthaus titled "Flaw in the Jewel: Housing Discrimination against Jews in La Jolla" published by American Jewish Historical Society. Maybe this original source has more facts to prove this was actually a case of antisemitism. http://www.webcitation.org/5quH6gLRG Harpervi (talk) 08:14, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

In the La Jolla Light article (page B1) dated April 4, 2013, the La Jolla Historical Society Executive Director, Heath Fox, is quoted extensively about the additions and changes he made to the current La Jolla Historical Society exhibit, Home of your Dreams: La Jolla from 1887 through the 1920s. In March 2013, La Jolla Historical Society Executive Director Heath Fox discussed the hushed anti-semitism directed at Jews in La Jolla for over 75 years, both by residents and real estate agents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wightmanschool (talkcontribs) 03:32, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I think I found the La Jolla Light article mentioned above... http://www.lajollalight.com/2013/04/07/addendum-to-la-jollas-early-history-exhibit-at-historical-society-explains-the-towns-once-exclusionary-housing-policies/

The article only has one quality source, a booklet by Mary Ellen Stratthaus titled "Flaw in the Jewel: Housing Discrimination against Jews in La Jolla" http://www.webcitation.org/5quH6gLRG (Maybe some of the sources in this booklet can be verified further.)

Below are some quotes from another article in the La Jolla Light questioning if the secret conspiracy of antisemitism was as widespread as reported by only a few...

The La Jolla Light, Thursday, April 07, 2005 By Will Carless http://www.webcitation.org/5quGq3ONG

"...Nobody can say for certain whether La Jolla was a community that was largely anti-Semitic or racist well into the 1960s, or if those feelings were shared only by a few. The memories of those who lived here at the time are all too easily tainted by the rose-tinted lens of nostalgia or the torque of their personal politics...

...Many historians, commentators and journalists have dipped their brushes into the increasingly scant pools of memory and archives to reveal their version of what the discrimination and stereotypes of the time looked like. Unfortunately, such accounts all too often reveal the preconceptions of their authors. While they abound with sweeping statements about the anti-Semitic nature of La Jolla in days past, they often come up short in terms of evidence that it was a widely held prejudice..."Harpervi (talk) 09:05, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I discovered one article from that does have a conflict of interest being published by the Southwestern Jewish Press dated February 6, 1953 by Alice Craig Greene but if her original interviews with La Jolla real estate agents are accurate then this would be earlier historic evidence that antisemitism in La Jolla was widespread. http://www.sandiegojewishworld.com/2008-SDJW/20080330-jewish-sunday77.html#fromarchives High-quality mainstream sources still need to be cited. If anyone has photos of the "gentile only" signs or brochures from La Jolla, please share links to them. If these can be verified through high-quality mainstream sources then maybe a wikipedia page for this topic can be created to present the historic details.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Harpervi (talkcontribs)

Harpervi, please don't assume bias on the part of other editors. This antisemitism section has been in the article for far longer than it has been cited in the Cross controversy (it's news to me that it is even considered relevant in that case). The importance of antisemitism in La Jolla related to the establishment of UCSD there, and it was made an issue by the first chancellor. I do agree that some of the excessive detail (porch lights, really?) could be trimmed. --MelanieN (talk) 00:17, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Point well taken. I have edited my posts to not assume bias from any editor. Thanks for pointing that out. If the subsection could be trimmed down with high-quality mainstream sources added then I think it would be fine. Harpervi (talk) 08:04, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll work on that entire History section as I have time over the next few days. The "timeline" format is less than ideal, it should be converted into prose. There should be a paragraph or subsection devoted to UCSD; perhaps the "antisemitism" material could be incorporated into that since it was relevant at the time. There should be a paragraph about the Cross, or at least a reference. Quite possibly a subsection about the contributions made by Ellen Browning Scripps. What else do we need to make a proper history section? --MelanieN (talk) 14:57, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
As for the importance (or not) of antisemitism in La Jolla, I searched the archives of the San Diego Historical Society and I did find a few references to the practice, but all of them cite the same source: the 1996 "Flaw in the Jewel" article. That source was also cited by the La Jolla Light, as you mentioned. So apparently historians and journalists do take that article seriously as a Reliable Source, but it seems to be the only such source, and so IMO it should not hold such a dominant role in this article. --MelanieN (talk) 15:26, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm working on a complete rewrite of the section. Give me a few days. (Under construction at User:MelanieN/sandbox). --MelanieN (talk) 00:39, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

There! I just posted a complete rewrite of the History section. Phew! Additions, corrections and copy editing are welcome. --MelanieN (talk) 18:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Great job! --B2C 19:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for all the hard work. Harpervi (talk) 06:34, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I started the "Antisemitism" section a few years ago, and am responsible for most of its content (edited under an ip). I lived very close to La Jolla and heard from a friend about the antisemitic housing practices that previously existed in La Jolla, including a far-fetched story of a "pink wall" on one side of which Jews could not live. I was inspired to do research to find out if there was any truth to these claims, and ended up adding my findings to the La Jolla Wiki page, as they were not enough to justify their own article.

I was new to Wikipedia at the time, so my sources may not have been flawless, but I promise my only intention was to inform. However, it is clear from the sources that you found acceptable that housing discrimination did take place, so I would hardly call it an exceptional claim, much less one that's part of a conspiracy to mislead or misinform. If it's generally agreed upon that the truncations improve the article, then so be it. —Strachkvas (talk) 23:24, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I thank you for adding this section initially, and I think we have retained the "meat" of it. The main problem was that it was almost the ONLY thing in the La Jolla History section (not your fault; other people's fault for not contributing more history). As a result, the history section overemphasized antisemitism and did not provide any context. La Jolla has a long and interesting history, of which antisemitism forms a part; I hope we have it in proportion now. And I hope you will continue to contribute material to the article as you see fit. --MelanieN (talk) 04:19, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
Let me add my thanks to Strachkvas for starting mention of antisemitism in La Jolla. I added some to this section before it was edited out. I think what I can do is re-add some as part of a citation, to keep this article in balance. I think this for two reasons. First I edit the article on Minneapolis which was featured for years before anybody bothered to add antisemitism (and there is a very good source as there is for La Jolla). Second I'm old enough to have been a television viewer of Jacob Bronowski's The Ascent of Man. Pardon me for saying that he and his show are just as significant and encyclopedic as this whole article about La Jolla. He was that good. Thanks. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:47, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

"Cross" or "Christian cross"?[edit]

Question about how to describe the Mount Soledad Cross. A user recently changed the word "cross" to "Christian cross" in two places, saying Copy editing for clarity. I changed it back to [[Christian cross|cross]] (so that it reads as "cross" but links to the Wikipedia article "Christian cross"); my edit summary was no need to emphasize "Christian" cross, which in fact is a legally debated issue; "cross" with a wikilink is a sufficient description. An IP then reverted my changed and restored the words "Christian cross", saying The object in question is described by Wikipedia, is a "Christian cross". The Wikipedia page for "Cross" is not this item. Reverted for consistency.

I'm bringing the question here for discussion. Should it read "Christian cross", or should it read "cross" with a wikilink to "Christian cross? --MelanieN (talk) 01:04, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

My two cents: let's call it a Latin cross. More descriptive than "cross" as to its form, and less frought than "Christian cross". Thoughts? Dohn joe (talk) 02:46, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Apologies for the anonymous revert, I didn't realize I had not logged in until after I'd committed it. The cross was known, up until its ex post facto renaming and building upon as a memorial, as the "Mount Soledad Easter Cross". It is clearly Christian, the legal issue of whether the cross is Christian has been resolved with the most recent court ruling. People in everyday life, and on Wikipedia, acknowledge that shape universally as a Christian symbol, dodging the word "Christian" feels like an attempt to reinforce the legally failed argument that it's somehow secular. KILNA (talk) 06:25, 14 December 2013 (UTC)