Talk:Languages of Belgium

Has only 50% of the population in Brussels French as primary language? I really doubt that figure is correct. Aaker 22:50, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

The key word here is 'primary'. If you read the pdf-report linked in the third footnote, it makes more sense. Specifically, see the section entitled 'Brussels is no longer Belgium', indicating that only 44% of Brussels' residents are of Belgian descent. While well over 90% can speak French well or very well, for many it is only a secondary language. The exact figures are in the report.--Undyne (talk) 18:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Images

Belgium's official languages are those of its larger, historically more powerful neighbors, France, the Netherlands, and Germany.

I have removed this image, because I think the one now at the top shows the language situation better. But I think we should add it back in if a "Linguistic history of Belgium" section gets added to this article. It would also be nice to have images of street signs in French and German for those sections. Lesgles (talk) 15:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If and when it gets added back, I would request that the phrase historically more powerful be omitted. There are many reasons for the Language diversity in Belgium. However, the power of its neighbors is NOT one of them.--Buster7 (talk) 16:08, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, that is nonsense.--Hooiwind (talk) 10:09, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

suggesting a change

Currently the Lead is as follows:

Close to 60% of the country's population speaks Dutch as the primary (Belgian) language. It is the official language of the Flemish Community and the Flemish Region (merged to Flanders) and, along with French, an official language of the Brussels-Capital Region. Though the Dutch language officially spoken in Belgium is identical with the one spoken in the Netherlands, it is often colloquially called Flemish. The main Dutch dialects spoken in Belgium are Brabantian, West Flemish, East Flemish and Limburgish. Many of the sub-dialects, while they may resemble standard Dutch, eminate from history and daily life and can be quite distant from the standard language. Words which are unique to Belgian Dutch are called belgicisms. The original Brabantian dialect of Brussels has been very heavily influenced by French, and in most cases replaced by it during the Frenchification of Brussels.

In order to better describe the Language situation in Belgium, I suggest the following changes;

Of the inhabitants of Belgium, roughly 59% belong to the Flemish-speaking Community, 40% to the French-speaking Community and 1% to the German-speaking Community. Though the Dutch language version officially spoken in Belgium is almost identical with the one spoken in the Netherlands, it is often colloquially called Flemish. Dutch is the official language of the Flemish Community and the Flemish Region (merged to Flanders) and, along with French, an official language of the Brussels-Capital Region. The main Flemish dialects spoken in Belgium are Brabantian, West Flemish, East Flemish and Limburgish. Many of the sub-dialects, while they may resemble standard Dutch, eminate from Belgian history and daily life and can be quite distant from the standard Dutch language. Words which are unique to Belgian Dutch are called belgicisms. The original Brabantian dialect of Brussels has been very heavily influenced by French, and in most cases replaced by it during the Frenchification of Brussels........--Buster7 (talk) 14:19, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Dear Buster, seriously. The only Flemish dialects are East Flemish and West Flemish (including French Flemish), related dialects spoken in the former County of Flanders, much smaller than today's Flanders. Other Dutch dialects (of the Dutch language) spoken in Belgium are Brabantian and Limburgish —spoken by a few million more in the Netherlands— so they do not "eminate from Belgian history". Also, there is no such thing as a Flemish-speaking Community, since there is no Flemish language (not even a variant common for all of Belgium), no matter what you may believe. You either say the Flemish Community (capital C), the Flemish people or the Dutch-speaking community (small c). So please —and this is not the first time— stop mixing up the terms Flemish and Dutch when talking about linguistics or languages. I really don't feel like having to keep a constant eye on you and User:SPQRobin, who seems to suffer from the same POV. Kind regards, --Hooiwind (talk) 10:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a distinction that is negated when Flemish people are called Dutch...History calls us Flemish, not Dutch. Your vigil is appreciated, as is your point of view. Neither User:SPQRobin nor I are doing the mixing. Our attempt is to seperate the ingredients for the readers education. Regards.--Buster7 (talk) 13:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I utterly agree Flemish people (in the modern sense of the word) are by no means Dutch people. In linguistic matters, however, Dutch is not a demomym proper to the Netherlands (in the modern sense of the word). Cheers, --Hooiwind (talk) 14:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok. My opinion is that Flemish is a separate language. There's however a (political...) consensus that it's not. Though, as far as I know, there is a consensus that "Flemish dialects" refer to "dialects of [whole] Flanders". And btw, I don't like neither current and proposed text :-) Let's stop discussing endlessly about those things again and again... SPQRobin (talk) 16:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

As long as you realise your opinion is what you want to believe and not how it is, you can believe what you wish. "Flemish dialects" could mean "all dialects spoken in Flanders" but would be interpreted by many as "dialects of the Flemish language" (quod non). "Dutch dialects spoken in Flanders" is therefore less deliberately vague. We do speak different than the Dutch —thank God—, as do people in the Caribbean or Suriname, just like the Americans speak different than the English, but that does not mean we speak a different language (or that they speak a different language). Afrikaans in se may not be very different either but is considered a seperate language, simply because it is considered a seperate language. "Flemish" is not. This discussion will sadly only stop when attempts to spread this idea —be it explicitly or implicitly by writing things like "Flemish pronoun", "Flemish dialect", "in Flemish", "speak Flemish"— will have come to a halt. Regards, --Hooiwind (talk) 11:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Add dialects in the German speaking region?

Should the dialects of the "German speaking Community" be added here? People living there speak Limburgish and Luxembourgish - quite strange, only Luxembourgish can be classified as a dialect of German.Johnny2323 (talk) 02:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)