Talk:Late Bronze Age collapse

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Hyksos?[edit]

I am deleting the reference to Hyksos, who were 400 years earlier. The expulsion of Asiatics by Setnakhte at the end of Dynasty 19 is a better reference.John D. Croft (talk) 19:51, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Robert Drews: Proto-Hoplite What?[edit]

In The End of the Bronze Age Robter Drews specifically states that the Chariotry were defeated (in his theory) by "disorganized masses of running skirmishers," (pg 225) which were subsequently outmatched by close-order infantry (i.e. your "proto-hoplites"). The article as it stands is a gross misrepresentation of his thesis. I am going to correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.177.15.195 (talk) 05:09, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

BCE versus BC[edit]

Both the use of BC or BCE is alowed in Wikipedia. But BC (Before Christ) applies to Christian dates, and while it may be applicable in discussing a non Christian topic with people who are not Christian, it may be offensive to force a usage of BC and AD, as it implies a Christian POV. To remove this bias, personally I prefer a BCE (Before Common Era) dating system, as this certifies a non POV status.

Could the editor who changed the dates from BCE to BC please return them. Otherwise I will do it myself. John D. Croft 15:36, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Iron Versus Bronze[edit]

"Leonard R. Palmer suggested that iron, whilst inferior to bronze weapons" Arent iron weapons superior to bronze one? 62.245.124.84 20:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Palmer showed, that until the production of steel (through the deliberate adding of small amounts of carbon to the production of iron), in fact iron weapons were inferior to bronze. (Ever tried using wrought iron against bronze?) The superiority of iron weapons was in their ease and speed of production, which meant that you could field many more soldiers in the battle, than if you were armed only with (comparatively more expensive) bronze.

"The magic of iron: from 1500 BC

The Hittites are the first people to work iron, in Anatolia from about 1500 BC. In its simple form iron is less hard than bronze, and therefore of less use as a weapon, but it seems to have had an immediate appeal - perhaps as the latest achievement of technology (with the mysterious quality of being changeable, through heating and hammering), or from a certain intrinsic magic (it is the metal in meteorites, which fall from the sky).

Quite how much value is attached to iron can be judged from a famous letter of about 1250 BC, written by a Hittite king to accompany an iron dagger-blade which he is sending to a fellow monarch.

The discovery of steel: 11th century BC

By the 11th century BC it has been discovered that iron can be much improved. If it is reheated in a furnace with charcoal (containing carbon), some of the carbon is transferred to the iron. This process hardens the metal; and the effect is considerably greater if the hot metal is rapidly reduced in temperature, usually achieved by quenching it in water.

The new material is steel. It can be worked (or 'wrought') just like softer iron, and it will keep a finer edge, capable of being honed to sharpness. Gradually, from the 11th century onwards, steel replaces bronze weapons in the Middle East, birthplace of the Iron Age. It becomes essential, from now on, to have a good steel blade rather than a soft and indifferent one.

Cast iron in the east: 513 BC

Thus far in the story iron has been heated and hammered, but never melted. Its melting point (1528°C) is too high for primitive furnaces, which can reach about 1300°C and are adequate for copper (melting at 1083°C). This limitation is overcome when the Chinese develop a furnace hot enough to melt iron, enabling them to produce the world's first cast iron - an event traditionally dated in the Chinese histories to 513 BC."

Hope this helps John D. Croft 02:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm seeing no mention here of the theory that the switch to the iron age was a response to deforestation:

"A third hypothesis to explain the replacement of bronze by iron that has gained some credence is ecological. This hypothesis, proposed by the late Theodore Wertime, suggests that pyrotechnological activites making heavy demands on fuel over a long period, in conjunction with other kinds of human activity such as land clearning and agricultural terracing (Stager 1985:5-9), ultimately led to sever defoestation over much of the Mediterranean. Iron smelting, being significantly more fuel-efficient than copper smelting (Horne 1982:12), became economically more feasible despite technological difficulties and the greater labor intensity involved in producing iron (Wertime 1982, 1983). If it could be shown, therefore, that large parts of the Mediterranean were indeed undergoing heavy deforestation around the end of the Bronze Age and the beginning of the Iron Age, then the gradual switch from bronze to iron across a broad geographical range would be a reasonable response to a pressing ecological challenge." - 'The archaeometallurgy of the Asian old world', Vincent C. Pigott —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shawnphitz (talkcontribs) 09:52, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

This would be a useful addition to the article. I also can remember reading also that there was a shift in morality associated with the end of the Bronze Age. Julian Jaynes thesis suggests that this was the end of the bicameral mind, in which voices previously considered to be "the gods" became seen as an interior conscience, and there was a definite reaction at this period against public nudity in the middle East. In Egypt, servants previously went naked, and it was not uncommon in Mesopotamia either. Only in Greece, and then in the gymnasium, did public nudity survive. John D. Croft (talk) 06:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

An unthought-through opening[edit]

  • The Bronze Age collapse is the name of the Dark Age period of history... No, that's not what the Bronze Age collapse is at all. You have to listen to what you're writing. --Wetman (talk) 01:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Judea or Palestine[edit]

The reference to the area as Judea is anachronistic. Judea did not exist till after the end of the Bronze Age collapse. As this is an archaelogical article it should use the archaeologically accepted name for the region which is Palestine. If chronological accuracy is sought it should be Hatti and Canaan, not Syria and Palestine, although these are the geographic expressions preferred for these regions. John D. Croft (talk) 15:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I thought Palestine came later also? Isn't Canaan the proper name for pre-Dark Age Israel/Palestine? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.177.15.195 (talk) 05:15, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Ironworking[edit]

Not only is much of the section unreferenced (only a sngle source, and that for one of the earliest claims), but the "scientific" additions of 23 Sept 2008 (everything from "On the other hand..." to the end of the section) read like an overwrought personal essay and contradict the earlier (albeit itself uncited) claim about ironworking not appearing until after the collapse. The various claims really need sourcing;in the meantime I'll try to get rid some of the more obviously inappropriate wording. Ergative rlt (talk) 15:12, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Mycenae[edit]

Mycenae is not between Troy and Gaza. Confusing concerning timeline and location

11 May 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.202.20 (talk)  

The name of the article[edit]

It is true that so called Sea peoples devastated all near east in the 13th century BC . But the name of this article is misleading. Because it gives the impression that the collapse was in the bronze age. But it was not; it was in the iron age rather than the bronze age. Hittites who were strucked most severely during the collapse, were already using and even exporting iron . So the the name Early iron age collapse may be more convenient. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 10:42, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The title needs to reflect what this is commonly called. Looking at Google Books: [1] the current title seems commonly used. Dougweller (talk) 12:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, the LBIII Period is known for this collapse. The early Iron Age I is more the dark age or stagnant period (depending on POV). The name is wrong though because it talks about one collapse when there were two in this Age. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 27 Kislev 5774 16:57, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

more archaeological info[edit]

See also the 2010 climate change article by Kaniewski et al published in PDF on leilan.yale.edu. 4.249.48.137 (talk) 16:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Who is: Manuel Robbins?[edit]

I ask for the relevance resp. authority of Manuel Robbins, author of the Book Collapse of the Bronze Age: The Story of Greece, Troy, Israel, Egypt, and the Peoples of the Sea.

Reasons:

  • The book is self-published.
  • The author cannot be found as any professor / PhD at any university. No short biography in the book. No trace at all in the whole internet. Who is he? What did he do to have competence in the field?
  • The author is author *only* of this book. No other books, no scientific papers on the topic. Not even a homepage.
  • No scientific citations can be found, cf. Google Scholar.

I do not reject self-published authors by principle (I myself am one), but an author should show who he is / why he is competent / and after some time there should be some reactions on his book, citations e.g. And maybe a second book on the topic, or a homepage at least? A review?

On Amazon a funny discussion is going on whether Manuel Robbins is Lord Robbins, and whether this name is right or the other.

If the author cannot proof any relevance, we should remove him. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 21:23, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

I add a comment by a reader whom I asked for his opinion: "Regarding Manuel Robbins, I don't know anything about him beyond what can be guessed from the book. An Amazon review suggests he's an independent researcher. -- The book seems basically reliable in that I didn't spot any major factual errors. Interpretations can of course be argued. The lack of footnotes obviously destracts from its value as a secondary source." --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 19:33, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Deletion[edit]

Following the above argument I start to delete Manuel Robbins. Still open for discussion. --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 17:16, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

"Other groups of Indo-European warriors followed into the region, most prominently the Urartians (Armenians), Cimmerians and Scythians. "[edit]

It seems some Armenian nationalists are trying to insert themselves in the page of history through Wikipedia. Urartu, is long thought to be a Caucasian language, probably related to Chechen. I'vent read anywhere that it is Indo-European except for this wiki page. Somebody should take care of this big mistake done in the name of fanatic nationalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.180.50.39 (talk) 17:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Environmental causes[edit]

A recent study, perhaps of some use: Kaniewski, D.; Van Campo, E.; Guiot, J. L.; Le Burel, S.; Otto, T.; Baeteman, C. (2013). Petraglia, Michael D, ed. "Environmental Roots of the Late Bronze Age Crisis". PLoS ONE 8 (8): e71004. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0071004.  edit Andrew Gray (talk) 11:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Need for differentiation between early and late Bronze Age collapses[edit]

This article should be titled the Late Bronze Age collapse. There were two collapses, one at the end of the EB and one at the end of the LB. As a result, the name Bronze Age collapse is not only incorrect, but confusing. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 27 Kislev 5774 16:54, 30 November 2013 (UTC)