Talk:Lawyer

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Headline text[edit]

Lawyers described as the devils advocate but its not true. They do a good to society defending on the rights of the mischevious and the good persons.

Lawyers[edit]

Lawyers is the basic personality of court & I want to know abt some court law. Thanks. Lawyers —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldenglobas (talkcontribs) 09:18, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

All The Respected Lawyers Of World Are ardently requested to raise their voice against injustiness of Higher .....................Italic text —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.3.206 (talk) 17:48, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

um...theirs are the voices of injustice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.232.250.111 (talk) 02:27, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Cleaning up this article today[edit]

I came back from a vacation in Las Vegas and noticed that the vandals and inexperienced editors had run amok in the article again. IS ANYONE WATCHING THE VANDALS?!

For example, the Hazard quote about bad lawyers got totally mangled, so I restored it to the original version.

I also removed the following good faith incompetent edits as far too specific to the United States and in violation of Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. (Remember, my top-to-bottom revision of this article in 2005 was designed specifically to comply with the countering systemic bias project by carefully balancing information about lawyers in all major jurisdictions.) The following edits should have been inserted in Attorneys in the United States because they apply largely to that jurisdiction and/or Canada:

"The most basic specialization is between civil law (i.e. private law) and criminal law. As used in the United States, a "litigator" is a term used for a lawyer whose practice is based on civil and/or criminal litigation. [1] Criminal law specialists are almost all litigators. [2] Civil law (private law) practitioners often specialize by becoming either civil litigators or corporate attorneys.[3] In addition civil lawyers specialize topically, becoming, for example, labor attorneys,[4] patent (intellectual property) attorneys,[5] municipal finance attorneys,[6] or divorce (domestic relations) attorneys.[7] Lastly, lawyers specialize by tribunal, becoming, for example, appellate attorneys,[8] workers' compensation attorneys,[9] and even SEC[10] and NLRB attorneys.[11]"

"Attorneys in the United States who are employed by companies can assume not only various titles denoting their legal responsibilities (for ex., General Counsel, Assistant General Counsel or Director of Governmental Affairs) but also officer or other business titles (for ex., Vice President or Secretary). [12]"

The following were removed as cites to unreliable sources or original research (first publication of first-stage synthesis) in violation of WP:RS and WP:NOR:

E.g. Portugal: Alves Periera Teixeira de Sousa. Accessed February 16, 2009; Italy Studio Misuraca, Franceschin and Associates. Accessed February 16, 2009.

Peru: Hernandez & Cia. Accessed February 16, 2009; Brazil: Abdo & Diniz. Accessed February 16, 2009 (see Spanish or Portuguese profile pages); Argentina: Lareo & Paz. Accessed February 16, 2009.

Macau: Macau Lawyers Association. Accessed February 16, 2009.

E.g. University of Montana School of Business Administration. Profile of Dr. Michael Harrington. University of Montana, 2006. See also Distance Learning Discussion Forums. New wrinkle in the "Is the JD a doctorate?" debate. Distance Learning Discussion Forums, 2003-2005.

E.g. Peru: Hernandez & Cia. Accessed February 16, 2009; Brazil: Abdo & Diniz. Accessed February 16, 2009 (see Spanish or Portuguese profile pages); Macau: Macau Lawyers Association. Accessed February 16, 2009; Portugal: Alves Periera Teixeira de Sousa. Accessed February 16, 2009; Argentina: Lareo & Paz. Accessed February 16, 2009; and Italy Studio Misuraca, Franceschin and Associates. Accessed February 16, 2009.

E.g. Dr. Ronald Charles Wolf. Accessed February 16, 2009.

See the "Esquire" article in the English Wikipedia, particularly the "United States" section in that article.

Also see The Morrison & Foerster law firm website, one of the largest law firms in Asia and the United States, for an example of usage.

That's it for now.--Coolcaesar (talk) 02:57, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate what you do, even if I somehow missed all this. I don't know how. Francis Davey (talk) 18:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Image for infobox[edit]

Is more appropriate for a horror movie. I think the genre has its own page. Its unclear, sarcastic and deviant.--Aleksd (talk) 23:38, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

The problem is your replacement is of a particular living person who is identifiable through image data. She can say: "Look everybody, my picture is in Wikipedia!" Thus it becomes advertising. Let's find an image of a dead lawyer. – S. Rich (talk) 02:38, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Seeking to find an image of a dead lawyer for the infobox, I found one and posted it. Since then the image has been changed twice. Well, I've restored the one I found. At the same time, I'd like to open a discussion as to what image we should post so that consensus can develop and decide. (I've just changed the caption for this section to open up the discussion for more comment.) So:
  • I submit that a non-living person image be posted so that living lawyers won't be able to claim that their picture is on Wikipedia.
  • I submit that a woman is appropriate for the infobox. Women are an increasing presence in the profession. Indeed, I believe that 50% plus of new law students in the US are women. The article has several images of male lawyers. The image in the infobox is the only woman.
  • If we get agreement that a non-living woman image be used in the infobox, I have no particular stake in keeping the present image. Another woman would suit me fine. – S. Rich (talk) 05:04, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
  • I am completely fine with the image portraying a female lawyer. Just please not the current one. It's grotesque and if I didn't know what a lawyer was, I would have thought it was a synonym for monster (or guy with makeup). Also in regards to a lawyer advertising herself, can't the picture just be a photo of a female dressed as a lawyer? – W. David (talk) 10:52, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Reply: Yes, there are other images. Please suggest one. You will need to look in the Wikipedia Commons, or you can load another image. If you do so, you must comply with copyright restrictions. – S. Rich (talk) 03:54, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Lawyer ≠ attorney[edit]

Rewrite the lead. It is not just common law centered, it is US-only. Don't take my word for it, look in the OED: One versed in the law; a member of the legal profession, one whose business it is to conduct suits in the courts, or to advise clients, in the widest sense embracing every branch of the profession, though in colloquial use often limited to attorneys and solicitors. Let's make it clear in the lead that the usage {lawyer = attorney} is only in the US. Littledogboy (talk) 17:27, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

You are right, there are different usages of the word. But where was the OED published? Perhaps in some other Oxford? – S. Rich (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Disagree with Littledogboy. What he proposes makes zero sense because to state that point in the lead is itself far too specific to the United States for an article that I mostly drafted with the specific intent of describing the legal profession in a global context. The OED definition is poorly written, logically incoherent, and unduly specific to the unusually broad definition of lawyer used only in the United Kingdom. --Coolcaesar (talk) 01:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm merely pointing out that two sets of words are equal in different contexts:

  1. lawyer or attorney (USA, Australia) = advocate (most of common law jurisdictions, India)just scroll over the interwikis = {barrister+solicitor} (England and others) = (in many countries lawyer is colloquially used as in the US)
  2. generally a law graduate practising law {lawyer, judge, notary public...} = jurist (US, some common law countries) = lawyer (some common law countries, possibly England, Scotland)

So while the article is about the concept described in set#1, many people will come here looking for #2. Therefore, Mr Coolcaesar, remove from the lead the (redundant) definition of what law is, and replace with a sentence explaining how the terms jurist and advocate (and probably barrister and solicitor) fit in. A side not: I wonder whether some of the interesting stuff you've written (eg Career structure) wouldn't belong within the scope of the more general article, jurist. Littledogboy (talk) 12:17, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with the lengthy history of this article over the past five years before making such suggestions. The entire Terminology section was originally the first part of the article. It had to be separated out and broken up into sections because it was becoming too complex and unreadable for laypersons (for whom Wikipedia is written). There is no need to reincorporate all that complexity back into the article lead. --Coolcaesar (talk) 08:05, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
What is the more general term in US English, then? Jurist? But that's often used for theoreticians of law, isn't it? Legal profession? What do you use, Coolcaesar? Littledogboy (talk) 22:44, 16 June 2013 (UTC)