|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 Suppor Lazuri wikipedia
- 2 Correction of Religion
- 3 Correction of "Correction of Religion"
- 4 To Kolkhianboy
- 5 Dubious claims
- 6 Readding offending and incomprehensible comments
- 7 Copyvio text
- 8 Copyright problem removed
- 9 Copy "Scientific" Texts But; Why ?
- 10 Dubious claims in the article
- 11 Laz population figures in infobox
- 12 About Laz Population
- 13 Laz people in Georgia
- 14 i am a lazdi
- 15 Canik
- 16 Lazs are Georgians!
- 17 Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page
Suppor Lazuri wikipedia
For supoort new Lazuri Wikipedia in lazuri nena please click this link Requse wiki --Salahana 14:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC) Ou this is cool. Love to see wiki in lazepe nena.... god bless u lazs. Best wishes from Georgia --unsigned 14:57, 21 February 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk)
Correction of Religion
In the page was written Religions Sunni Islam, Georgian Orthodox Christianity, Georgian Catholic Christianity, as the religions of the Laz people. It also gave a link to a book on Georgian people in general. The information is true with regard to all Georgian people, but the Laz people are all Sunni Moslems. Although there were largely Christians in old dyas, there are no Christians among them any more. This is the case with regard to both the large community that lives in Turkey and those few who live in Georgia.
Correction of "Correction of Religion"
This is not true. I am lazian and I am Orthodox christian. Bearing in mind those lazian live in Turkey had once mainly orthodox background. And still there are orthodox lazian left.
- I assume that you are from Georgia. Are you converted to Christianity or is your family been Christian always?
- It is a fact that Georgia since the Russian conquest has tried to wipe out its Moslem Georgian heritage and represent itself as a pure Orthodox Christian country, but Georgian peoples outside Georgia remained Moslem.--Babakexorramdin 07:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Wait a minute. Are Laz people Georgians or not? --126.96.36.199 09:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- Laz are a Kartvelian people, their language is not eorgian proper, but is related to them. they are one of the Kartvelian (=Georgian=South Caucasian)peoples. --Babakexorramdin 15:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Pal, this is becoming very tiresome. Please explain what you actually want. You are persistently removing the info on the relationship of Georgian and Laz languages and replacing Georgians from the related ethnic group infobox with Hamshenis. This is simply ridiculous. Please stop your prejudicial behavior and explain your grievances on talk, ok? --KoberTalk 20:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
This bold and odd statement: "The idea of a shared cultural Colchian heritage with Mingrelians has been popularized and some Laz even consider themselves as a part of a greater Zan (Laz-Mingerelian) ethnos that excludes the Georgians proper" should be supported by references and sources, otherwise it can be deemed as original research as per Wiki guideline on no-OR. Please insert reliable English-language sources to support that bold statement. Iberieli (talk) 17:01, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- If this claim is not supported by sources and references, it will be removed as per Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:No reliable sources, no verifiability, no article. Iberieli (talk) 16:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
There is also one very strong sentence: The family is strongly dominated by the husband, This sentence has no relation so far with the reality, Woman are least equal to Man in a marriage, even has a stronger position. wikipedia needs to proove this information with indicating the source of the researches clearly!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dilaila (talk • contribs) 00:34, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Readding offending and incomprehensible comments
Pocopocopocopoco, could you please explain why you find this post so helpful? According to Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, the comment containing ad hominem attacks and "material not relevant to improving the article" should be removed.--KoberTalk 05:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Because he continues the harassment strategy against long time contributors due to his personal intolerance for people who dont share his POV. Like Russians like to say "doprigaetsya" Iberieli (talk) 18:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Most of the recent additions to the article were directly copied from here. You're welcome to add more info on the Laz culture, but copy-pasting the copyrighted material is unacceptable. --KoberTalk 11:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Copyright problem removed
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from this URL: http://www.kalan.com/scripts/Dergi/Dergi.asp?t=3&yid=9386. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a license compatible with GFDL. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Copy "Scientific" Texts But; Why ?
I dont know English.My English is bad :( I'am study in Marmara University and i am half-ethnolog-filolog :) I know everything about Laz people(and i am a Laz from Batumi Muhajir (Turkey)) but i cant write its.Because my english not enough.Cuz i copy-pasting from http://www.kalan.com/scripts/Dergi/Dergi.asp?t=3&yid=9386.Thats way so sorry but this is "scientific" or RELIABLE" more Kartvelist attacks by Kober and Iberieli TuTasTemre LAZ
- I'm sorry but your biography and education is hardly of any importance here and your self-proclaimed "scientificity" and "reliability" are not convincing at all. The first thing you need to learn is to engage in civil conversation and seek a consensus with other users. Sockpuppetry, edit wars, throwing accusations of fascism and ethnic slurs around are unacceptable. You should rememeber that religious or ethnic prejudices have no room in Wikipedia. Otherwise, you will never be taken seriously.--KoberTalk 17:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- This sock poppet and troll should be ignored, he is well known vandal of this article and other ones too. instead of referencing and co-operating with other users, he continues vandalizes our user pages and articles on Wiki, not to mention trolling and sock puppetry. Iberieli (talk) 18:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Dubious claims in the article
More recently, the perceived reality of a common Colchian heritage with the Mingrelians has been popularized and predominantly Laz even consider as a part of a greater Zan (Laz-Mingerelian) ethnos that excludes the Georgians proper.
The assertion above needs to be sourced using reliable sources. Neither of the websites linked in the text satisfies the reliable source criteria. On the other hand, I'm citing a passage from the scholarly source which says:
The fact that Laz can converse quite fluently with Mingrelian traders does not lead to any sense of shared identity: the primary distinguishing mark of the Mingrelians is the Christian religion, and in this context the Laz identify firmly with the Muslim Turks.
Thomas M. Wilson & Hastings Donnan (1998), Border Identities: Nation and State at International Frontiers, p. 258. Cambridge University Press, ISBN 052158745X.
to delete http://www.engnetbase.com/books/701/cr2127_ref.pdf http://books.google.com/books?id=sQfpNOKzDjcC&pg=PA520&lpg=PA520&dq=The+Exponential+Distribution+Theory+Methods+and+Approximations&source=web&ots=B3OBPAE89c&sig=oHE4IVFaFzwlz-E-4Bya_2t1L5o&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP1,M1 Theoretical statistics[by] D. R. Cox [and] D. V. Hinkley.. Shapiro Science - Book Stacks - 4th floor | QA276 .C86
Pal, Nabendu.: Handbook of exponential and related distributions for engineers and scientists /Nabendu Pal, Chun Jin, Wooi K. Lim.. Shapiro Science - Book Stacks - 4th floor | QA 273.6 .P351 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 21:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Laz population figures in infobox
As an outsider, I am astonished by the information used as the basis for the recent edit war around the population figures in the infobox. With all due respect, it seems to me that the sources offered by anon 184.108.40.206 do not meet the Wikipedia criteria for reliability (WP:RELIABLE) for the purposes of the article under discussion. What we have here is (1) the web site of an advocacy group for minorities (references 1 and 4); (2) a tourist guidebook for Turkey (references 2 and 5), (3) the website of the European Country of Origin Information Network (references 4 and 7); and (4) the website of the Basque Government (reference 8). These sources give numbers for the Laz population, but they do not cite any verifiable references for their numbers. The only source that does cite a reference is the Basque Government web site for the number of Laz in Georgia (32,000), but the citation to ethnologue.com (2000 edition) is simply incorrect (see Ethnologue (2005 edition): 2,000 Laz in Georgia in 1982; more recent numbers are not available).
The one source that looks reliable is listed as “Encyclopedia of the Orient’’ in references 3 and 6 (actually this is LookLex Encyclopedia, identified as an expansion of “Encyclopedia of the Orient” that has allegedly existed since 1996). However, all the numbers in this source (including 500,000 Laz people in Turkey) are accompanied by a caveat: ”All figures above are estimates, due to the lack of independent data. Real figures may differ substantially.” This is not the kind of information that can be used now to replace previously published information.
A small aside on Georgia. An indirect indication that there cannot be 30,000 Laz in Georgia is provided by the 2002 population census for Georgia: Laz are not listed explicitly as an ethnic group in the table reported in the 2007 Statistical Yearbook of Georgia, although the cutoff level in the table seems to be 3,500 people. “Other” ethnic groups (which probably include Laz as well as many other minorities) total 20,600 according to the 2002 census. So there is no way to have 30,000 Laz in Georgia at this point in time.
Based on these considerations, I am reverting the version by anon 220.127.116.11 to the latest version by User:Takabeg (15:09, 25 October 2008). I strongly urge to put an end to this edit warring and to confine future changes to verifiable and reliable sources. In case of need, there is always the talk page for discussion and debate before making bold changes that may be disputed by others.
About Laz Population
Hello everyone, i can't speak very well English.But i must say you somethings.
- Lazs aren't "50,000".Because it was 1970's estimate.freemusefworldmusicfestival.orgww4report.comi-cias.com
- According to a survey in the Milliyet[] newspaper in 2007, there are around 220,000 self-defined Laz in Turkey
- Especially look to this site:Minority Rigths.They says Turkey has 250,000 Lazs.Read carefully:minorityrigths.org
- 50,000 is so funny estimate.Look on Turkish or Georgian vikipedias !!!
- Estimates of the number of Laz in Turkey range from approximately 90,000 (RFE/RL 25 June 1998; Ethnologue 2001) to some 150,000 (The Swedish Institute of International Affairs 2001, section 3.3.2). Of these, some 30,000 speak Laz as their mother tongue (RFE/RL 25 June 1998; Ethnologue 2001).
Ethnologue_Philologue is repeating here the claims he made on my talk page on 10 December 2008. For the benefit of all readers, I reproduce my reply to him (10 December 2008), in which I explain that the sources he is citing are irrelevant for the purpose of demographic estimates:
Reproduced from User talk:Zlerman#About Laz Population
- Dear User:Ethnologue_Philologue: I suggested that you read and study WP:RS which explains what relevant sources are.
- Three of the four sources you give in the fist line above are music-related sites and therefore cannot be used as a reliable source for demographic estimates.
- The fourth source states clearly (and professionally) at the bottom of the table: "All figures above are estimates, due to the lack of independent data. Real figures may differ substantially." So we cannot really use it as a reliable source either.
- Your last source is an advocacy group for minorities. It is therefore not objective and cannot be regarded as reliable in matters relating to the demographics of minorities.
- Finally, you can reproduce reliable sources from Turkish and Georgian Wikipedias (if they appear there), but you cannot cite them as a source for your changes.
- You may not like the numbers in the article, but they are the best we have from reliable sources and must not be changed until better reliable sources are identified. Incidentally, these issues have been previously thrashed out on the Laz people talk page, so there is no need to start the whole cycle again. --Zlerman (talk) 08:00, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
User:Ethnologue_Philologue has now added a new source to his list: Milliyet. This seems to be a Turkish newspaper with which I am not familiar and which I cannot read. Someone else with knowledge of the Turkish language and understanding of the Turkish media will have to judge the reliability of this source. Meanwhile I have to treat it as unreliable on a par with the other five sources cited by User:Ethnologue_Philologue. Based on these considerations, I am once again reverting the changes made to Laz demographic estimates. Perhaps before making further changes User:Ethnologue_Philologue can be persuaded to present his sources for discussion on this talk page. --Zlerman (talk) 14:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
Laz people in Georgia
Please stop entering 32,000 Laz in Georgia based on the Catalan Government website. This number is sourced to Grimes (Ethnologue, 2000) -- see footnote to the Caucasus table on the web site -- but as pointed out in an earlier comment above, the citation to ethnologue.com (2000 edition) is simply incorrect. According to Ethnologue (2005 edition), which supersedes the 2000 edition, there were 2,000 Laz in Georgia in 1982; more recent numbers are not available. So this is the best reliable estimate available to date, and this is what we should use in the article -- even if some of us think that this is an underestimate. --Zlerman (talk) 03:29, 16 January 2009 (UTC) Non sense though!!! Georgian government keeps maybe decreasing the number of Laz's do exist in their country! What about tht?!
i am a lazdi
Hi, When my uncle in the Dodecanese Islands died a few years ago at age 102 I noticed that under his name was written "LAZ". I asked my father why. He said we ARE ALL LADZIDES. I ASKED HIM WHAT IT MEANT. HE EXPLAINED THAT WE ORIGANALLY CAME FROM GEORGIA, WE WERE NOT ALWAYS IN GREECE. THEN, I NOTICED THAT OTHER RELATIVES OF MINE,TOO, WERE CALLED LAZ. I WAS CURIOUS. SINCE THEN, I RESEARCHED AND DISCOVERED ABOUT THE LAZ PEOPLE. I TOLD MY CHILDREN. THEY, TOO, WERE INTERESTED. WE DID MANY RESEARCHES, ORDERED LAZ MUSIC, SEARCHED THE COMPUTER AND READ, ELA NA KALACHEVOUME ROMEIKA. I LOVED IT ALL! I AM PROUD TO BE A LAZ. THE MUSIC IS VERY SIMILAR TO PONDIC MUSIC. WE WATCHED THE DANCES OF THE PONDIC PEOPLE. THEY MARCH IN THE GREEK INDEPENDANCE PARADE EVERY YEAR. THERE ARE NO LAZ PEOPE IN THE PARADE. IN FACT, NO ONE I EVER SPOKE TO ABOUT THE LAZ EVER HEARD OF US. I LEARNED THAT THE LAZ PEOPLE LEFT THE BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY IN GEORGia IN 1863 DUE TO MASSACRES. THEY SETTLED IN THE ISLANDS, TURKEY, NORTH ATHENS AND IN ITALY. 33,000 WERE TRANSPORTED BY SHIPS MY GREAT, GREAT, GREAT GRANDFATHER OWNED. THEN, HE,TOO, CAME TO GREECE WITH HIS FAMILY. I WONDER IF THERE ARE ANY ZOUROUDIS (MY MATERNAL NAME) IN GEORGIA. WE ARE GREEK ORTHODOX BUT NOT VERY RELIGIOUS. WE SPEAK, READ AND WRITE GREEK. I RAISED MY DAUGHTERS GREEK. ONLY TWO GRAND CHILDREN SPEAK GREEK. IT IS HARD IN AMERICA TO STAY ETHNIC. THE AMERICANS DON'T LIKE IT. KIKI18.104.22.168 (talk) 19:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
--- There is one Laz tribe called "Zoraloglu" I get the impression you have something to do with this route!!! Zouroudis!!! Check it on Facebook!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 00:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, my dear you are right. It is hard to maintain your identity in this competitive business, progressive, enlightened, western world.
So I have a small Proposal in the first paragraph:
Instead of this:
|“||The Laz (Lazi (ლაზი) or Lazepe (ლაზეფე) in Laz, Lazlar in Turkish, Lazi (ლაზი) or Č’ani (ჭანი) in Georgian) are an ethnic group who live primarily on the Black Sea coastal regions of Turkey and Georgia. One of the chief tribes of ancient kingdom of Colchis, the Laz were initially Orthodox Christians, most of whom converted to Sunni Islam during Ottoman rule of Caucasus in the 16th century.||”|
I propose this
|“||The Laz (Lazi (ლაზი) or Lazepe (ლაზეფე) in Laz, Lazlar in Turkish, Lazi (ლაზი) or Chani (ჭანი, Č’ani) in Georgian) are an ethnic group who live primarily on the Black Sea coastal regions of Turkey and Georgia. One of the chief tribes of ancient kingdom of Colchis, the Laz were initially Orthodox Christians, most of whom converted to Sunni Islam during Ottoman rule of Caucasus in the 16th century.
Canik Region(Samsun): the name of Samsun region in the past. The name Canik came from The Laz people = Č’ani see Macrones article: Strabo (xii.3.18) remarks, in passing, that the people formerly called Macrones bore in his day the name of Sanni, a claim supported also by Stephen of Byzantium, though Pliny speaks of the Sanni and Macrones as two distinct peoples. By the 6th century they were known as the Tzanni (Ancient Greek: Τζάννοι). / The Greek language has no "ch" sound so they used "s" or "tz" sounds... Laz people = Č’ani = Sanni/Tzanni > the name of Canik Region! But The Beyliks of Canik were Turkish Beyliks! At that time Laz people were not living in Samsun/Canik Region. Böri (talk) 11:11, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- map of Canik Region: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Anadolu_Beylikleri.png Böri (talk) 14:36, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Lazs are Georgians!
Just because Lazs live in nowaydays Turkey it does NOT mean that these people aren't of Georgian origin. I've met here pretty much of a lot of brainwashed and Turkified Lazs who call themselves Turks these days. These people are a real shame who do not know their own roots. They seem to forget that Turks were NOT even on earth as such when Georgians (including Lazs) had their own statehood. I am asking these Turkified Lazs. What are you proud of? Are you happy that you assimilated with Turks? Didn't your parents taught you where do you ORIGINALLY come from? Who you were and who you are. But it's clear to us, all Georgians that you Lazs won't be in 10 years of time. You won't know your roots and will be happy to fly your red funny flag. You were brothers to us, but now you seem that you are abandoning your dignified and proud past you had with us and choose some new nationality. You were one of the ancient people with us but you're now Turks. Speak Turkish and think like an average Turk. You've lost your religion, lost you roots, lost you goal and above all you've lost your future. But fortunately, Lazs living in their homeland in Georgia know their own roots and they won't ever betray them as you did. You have no right to call yourselves Lazs. My grandpa was Laz and many generations of my family as well. We know who we are. But you don't and probably you won't ever get it I guess. You prefer now to sing a Turkish anthem and fly that red tissue and pray in Mosques. By abandoning you past you are doomed to lose your very antiquity you had once when you were with us and were average Georgians. So, my point is that real Lazs live in Georgia. They speak Laz, which is related ONLY to Georgian language, they write in Georgian unique alphabet and not in your Latin as you don't have it yours in Turkey. Real Lazs were Georgians, are Georgians and always will be Georgians. Remember that! --Georgianჯორჯაძე 18:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
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