Talk:Le Corbusier

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Image[edit]

Are there no appropriate images of Corbusier for this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.28.180.30 (talk) 00:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Quote[edit]

We should include one of his most famous quotations, about a house being a machine for living in. -- Tarquin 17:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Look at the Wikipedia article Modernism. The section called "Modernism's reception and controversy" already has a reference to Le Corbusier's idea about houses being "machines for living in". Christopher Crossley 10:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Right, but it is an important thing that was said that is attributed to Le Corbusier. The saying's relationship to Modernism comes from Le Corbusier. Markmtl 09:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Paris plan[edit]

I'm suprised not to see any images of Le Corbusier's plan for Paris. To me it's one of his most shocking and notable (if brutal) plans. [1] --Quasipalm 19:52, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

One for WikiQuotes[edit]

"Nothing is contradictory any more. Everything is in its place, properly arranged in order and hierarchy." I read it from "Introducing Modernism" by Chris Rodrigues and Chris Garratt. But I don't know where it was that Le Corbusier first said it.LionKimbro

World of Biography[edit]

I would like to add external link of his biography available at World of Biography It includes his life, quotations, chronology, list of publication and few sketches. --Kbi911 13:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I have added the link --Kbi911 09:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

United Nations headquarters[edit]

Is there a reason why there is no mention that Le Corbusier was one of the designers of the UN HQ in New York? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.117.1.149 (talkcontribs) .

Yes, I'll add this now. The board of design consultants for the building, on which Le Corbusier served, selected one of his designs. jareha (comments) 07:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Death[edit]

I was surprised to see that this category existed: Category:Architects who committed suicide. It is possible to speculate that he walked into the waters knowingly (as the article says "against his doctor's orders") and therefore comitted suicide... what do you think? Include the category? --Blahm 01:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:No original research, we are not to speculate. jareha (comments) 07:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

World of Biography[edit]

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry (Le Corbusier Biography), probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections? 17 Apr 2006 Raghuvir.

No objections from me. jareha (comments) 07:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

He didn't design National Mosque, Malaysia[edit]

Somebody's claiming he designed Masjid Negara (National Mosque) in Kuala Lumpur. I highly doubt it. The Badan Warisan Malaysia lists the designers as from the Public Works Department: Howard Ashley (lead), Hisham Albakri, and Baharuddin Kassim. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Straits-mongrel (talkcontribs) .

Intro format[edit]

Is there any reason why the image is aligned on the left, and the table of contents on the right? In my opinion it looks very cock-eyed at 1280x1024, and only marginally less so at 800x600. Most other biographical articles on Wikipedia do it the other way round, for good reasons I think. --RobertGtalk 09:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

This has now been accounted for by recent changes: the image presumably on this page when you made the above comment since been deleted and I've moved the table of contents back to the left. jareha (comments) 06:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

An observation[edit]

I would like to say one word about something I've been thinking about lately. In an architecture and design forum, one participant claimed that Le Corbusier erred in his urban visions, and other times, in other places, he is blamed for buildings and urban works, built by others, which don't work or were even demolished as failures. Someone else pointed out to me, on the internet, an article about the Cabrini-Green neighborhood in Chicago, its malfunctionings and faults, implying Le Corbusier's (and maybe also Mies Van der Rohe's) ideas were to be held responsible. The Corviale building in Rome seems to have been inspired by Le Corbusier's theories, so his name gets brought up about that, and his ideas are often pointed at as failing. These are false and unjust accusations. Unfortunately, few of his many urban plans were actually constructed, such as the Pessac residential neighborhood, the Capitol in Chandigarh, and Firminy Vert. I was in Firminy, and I am glad that they finally completed St. Peter's church, because along with the stadium, the Unité d'Habitation, and the Cultural and Youth Center it forms a system of spaces and places that is harmonious, useful and beautiful. I wish that more of his plans of "urbanism" had been built, and I believe it would have been good for the inhabitants. If someone else has attempted to do that, whose intentions or capabilities were maybe not so elevated, it is another matter. Le Corbusier was battling (to no good use) when the Unité d'habitation in Berlin was being built with modifications to his drawings, and he reproached (as F. L. Wright did) also some epigons, when all they would do was take an element from his works formally and litterally witout interpreting the spirit and the sense. The Corviale building (to get back to the initilal examples, but there may be others), never was completed, had a very lacking management if not a lack of it, and then lived through particular adventures, with the several occupations that took place. If the Cabrini-Green complex has metallic grates enclosing the corridors that look quite uncomfortable, if an elevator breaks down and it doesn't get fixed for months or years, and if the trash accumulates and nobody takes care of it, Le Corbusier, Mies Van der Rohe, or modern architecture have nothing to do with that.

His Name/the status thereof[edit]

Can anybody confirm what the name we all know him by, "Le Corbusier", actually is; is it a nickname, a pen-name, or what? Certainly some of his books are attributed to "the crow" as being the author, rather than to "C-E Jeanneret". Does it have any official status (name change by deed poll equivalent etc?). Since wikipedia is frequently referred to by those writing essays/etc, this might be a useful topic to have clarification of. Like how 'Bucky' (R B Fuller) always gets mistakenly surnamed as Buckminster-Fuller. Graldensblud 14:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Incomplete sentence in the third paragraph[edit]

There seems to be a mal-formed sentence in the third paragraph of "Early life and education, 1887-1913": "He designed his earliest houses, such as the Villa Fallet, the In his early years he frequently would escape the somewhat provincial atmosphere... "

Genius[edit]

This article stresses technical criticisms of Le Corbusier's legacy, especially in the field of urban planning; what is missing is an assessment of his artistic achievement. Le Corbusier was a true polymath: he was a fount of original ideas in the cerebral spheres of construction and planning, as well as a tremendously creative sculptor of form. LC's early work was a pillar of early modernism, but his later works, like Beethoven's later quartets, transcend any stylistic categorisation. It is true that he erred, but it would have been surprising if otherwise, given the magnitude of his contributions. Any criticism of his ideas must bear in mind his fecundity and influence - in thought and in art. Tkeu 21:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The article places far too much importance on urban planning, which is certainly a significant part of Le Corbusier's legacy, but not all of it. And it has been Le Corbusier's artistic side that has proved most enduring, even as his urban planning has been refuted. Demflan (talk) 02:24, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

As someone who has visited many of his buildings, I also agree that the article stresses urban design too much. Corbu changed design forever, being one of the pioneers who made Modernism, and thus our post-Classical World. Gerrit Rietveld and Frank Lloyd Wright are also part of this group of great artists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cagedcalcium (talkcontribs) 02:44, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Genius?? If I was send to the past and given the choice to assassinate either Hitler or Corbussier, I would choose the latter. His designs and his school is a shore in the eye, a howl against good taste, an afrent against art... Le Corbussier's designs could only be improved with High Explosives. --80.31.59.250 (talk) 10:50, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Politics and Late Works[edit]

This article does not begun to do justice to the range and breadth of Le Corbusier's work. In particular, something needs to be said about his later period, especially the Unite in Marseilles, the Ronchamp cathedral, and La Tourette monastery. It would also be useful to note his use of "beton brut" concrete and influence on Brutalism. There is also almost no mention of his work on Chandigarh, a project that occupied much of his postwar work and marked his most notable foray into monumentality. Finally, how does this article fail to mention the International Style even once?

On a different note, something should be said about Le Corbusier's politics in the 1930s. His involvement with the far right is well-documented. Demflan (talk) 02:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Amen!Cagedcalcium (talk) 02:48, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Documentation[edit]

The above editor brings up an excellent point: The documentation in this article is extremely lacking. Whole sections make claims without footnotes, and "Forays into urbanism" has been marked as needing more citations since January 2007 -- well over a year. Surely enough has been written, in print and online, about an architect as prominent as Le Corbusier that the statements in this article can be backed up with verifiable, reliable sources. --69.22.254.108 (talk) 10:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Influence[edit]

The influence section is little more than a single sustained attack, much of which focuses on the more general deleterious effects of suburban sprawl (of which he was hardly a proponent) rather than anything directly related to his work. It's also almost entirely unsourced, composed largely of original research, and repeatedly presents often subjective criticism of his work as hard fact; while notable examples of criticism (I think immediately of Jane Jacobs and Alison and Peter Smithson) ought to be noted, they must be presented as opinion, and their origin fully ascribed. As it stands, the section is an embarrassment to this encyclopaedia. It's a good job he's dead, because it would be a wholescale breach of WP:BLP86.0.203.120 (talk) 15:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree. I agree with many of the points made, but they are still inappropriate in this setting. It's highly subjective and does sound like a personal attack rather than a critique. Citations would improve this, as would more from the opposing POV. PurpleChez (talk) 20:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Mononymity[edit]

Sorry I can't put this on the reverter's user talk page which is semiprotected, but... please educate me, what's wrong with this edit? 95.222.120.117 (talk) 13:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

First time I see this word, but I'd venture to guess "mononymous" describes a person with one name, in the sense that they go only by one name, such as: Madonna, Prince, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.58.147.83 (talk) 10:10, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
That's what the article says, yes. So how is "Le Corbusier" not like "Prince" or "Voltaire"? 95.222.120.117 (talk) 17:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure about the technicalities, but I would guess that the reverter counted "Le" as a word.Drew Smith What I've done 05:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The crow?[edit]

Quote: Some architectural historians claim that this pseudonym translates as "the crow-like one." ... with one reference given.

Like, what? Le Corbusier bears some semblance to French "le corbeau" = "the raven". So what? This just seems to be some author's individual theory. Maikel (talk) 12:59, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Merge discussion[edit]

I'm recommending that page Fondation Le Corbusier be merged into this page due to a few concerns:

The Fondation article reads more like an article about the museum, indicating that the museum should be the article
The Fondation may not be independently notable
I would support an article on the museum, but a quick perusal of this article seems to not even mention the museum, which would indicate that perhaps a section on the museum, with mentions to the fondation, should be written here first, then spun off if deemed appropriate.

Vulture19 (talk) 13:40, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Fine. I'll do it now since no one objects. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 12:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Villa Ternisien[edit]

The article states that a "Block of apartments built over the house [sic]", but it was not, or at least not as "built over the house" would normally imply. Villa Ternisien 1926 by Corbu (also known as "Maison Ternisien", "Maison des Artistes", or "Maison d'artiste") was mostly destroyed (only 3 exterior walls remained). In 1936, Architect Georges-Henri Pingusson's addition and re-construction of the structure was completed, which included a large apartment block on top, and an entirely new look on the previously darkly-coloured structure (Pingusson chose white).

  • If anyone would like to write an article on the structure itself, I have a 58-page pdf of plans, sections, elevations, paralines, models, photographs, and other information, which might or might not be useful.
  • The American Wikipedia doesn't have an entry for Pingusson, but the French Wikipedia does, so more information on the architect is available there. Note that fr.wikipedia suggests that his iteration of Ternisien was from 1934; I believe that (based upon the sources below, and other research I've done), this is incorrect, and that it was finished in 1936, and rather that it was begun in 1934. Dating structures in architecture is an uncertain science, however, so many dates might all be the "correct" dates. Eg, Ternisien was begun in 1923, but the final design and construction was not until 1925-1926.



Sources to check out:

"The Le Corbusier Guide" by Deborah Gans (Available on google's preview - Ternisien is on pp 69 of the document),

"The Villas of Le Corbusier and Pierre Jeanneret 1920-1930" by Tim Benton (Revised and Expanded Edition) (pp. 97-105)

"Birkhäuser architectural guide france 20th century" (My apologies for the lack of authorship - try this ISBN: 3-7643-6222-7. This one describes Pingusson's work)

ArchInform has some images, and a little bit of information (http://eng.archinform.net/projekte/1950.htm for Corbu's entry, and http://eng.archinform.net/projekte/9460.htm for Pingusson's) My Pillow of Wind (talk) 08:58, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Can people not delete things they don't like? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 01:47, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

works page for architects[edit]

The frank gehry page has a separate page containing a list of his works in grid format. Is this something that should extend to other famous architects just like a discography page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donald.smith2060 (talkcontribs) 23:26, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

an orphan wants you to help him[edit]

Dear authors of the "Le Corbusier" Wikipedia entry: Concerning your article, may I cordially suggest you to read the text “The TK Theory of Visual Proportions” and, if necessary, link or cross-reference the latter article with the former. Please contact me in case you have any doubts or questions. Yours, espaisNT.

Work(s) in South America[edit]

This article states in the opening paragraph that Le Corbusier worked on "several buildings in South America". But, the Curutchet House is identified in its article as the only work in that subcontinent. Which is correct? --Polymeris (talk) 21:57, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

--EspaisNT (talk) 10:05, 9 September 2011 (UTC) --EspaisNT (talk) 10:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Not the work of Le Corbusier[edit]

One of the works listed: Las Nubes, house of Uruguayan novelist Enrique Amorim (Salto, Uruguay)

is not the work of Le Corbusier. Here is a link to a newspaper article (in Spanish) which clearly states that the house was designed by its owner, Enrique Amorim, not by Le Corbusier.

http://ladiaria.com/articulo/2010/11/por-las-nubes/

it should be removed from the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.64.64.115 (talk) 00:36, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Removed. --ELEKHHT 07:36, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Translation of Vers une architecture[edit]

Small point but "Towards a New Architecture" is not a 'mistranslation,' it's a free translation, something different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.48.166.110 (talk) 11:35, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

  • The correct translation is "Towards an Architecture". Le Corbusier never makes reference to a new architecture in the title. I think this is important because the term "new" underlines the necessity to create something that did not exist before. Le Corbusier was modern but not the first modern. The term "new" could suggest otherwise. --Christophe Krief (talk) 11:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. I will fix this. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 03:02, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Golden Mean/Leonardo Myth[edit]

"Leonardo's suggestion of the golden ratio in human proportions" -- this is based on a misconception. In 1509 Luca Pacioli published a three-volume discourse on the golden mean entitled De Divina Proportione. The book was illustrated by Leonardo da Vinci. But I don't recall seeing any evidence that Leonardo da Vinci based human proportion on the golden ratio. Aknicholas (talk) 02:01, 29 November 2011 (UTC) What's the connection? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 17:43, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Ronchamp 005.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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File:La Tourette 72C.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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Nationality[edit]

Le Corbusier was a Swiss architect, born in Switzerland. He took French citizenship later in his life, hence I see no reason not to describe him as "Swiss architect". mgeo talk 11:20, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

  • I have replaced "Swiss architect" by "Swiss / French architect" because your assertion that he was only Swiss is false. However, his nationality his well documented in the article and I do not see the point to add further information on this subject. The history of his nationality is described a few lines later. Why are you insisting to add it in this phrase, and most of all why are you ignoring that he was also a French architect as well as a Swiss architect? He was born in Switzerland but lived and worked in France for much longer. I think that your insistence is displaced. You are not contributing to make this article reliable and encyclopaedic. If you like Le Corbusier, respect his memory and forget your national pride as he was able to do. --Christophe Krief (talk) 11:37, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Agree with Christophe Krief, and I removed that repetition and undue emphasis on nationalities/citizenships. I think the sentence "He was born in Switzerland and became a French citizen in 1930" is neutral and precise enough. --ELEKHHT 13:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I restored the stable version since someone removed his nationality from the introduction, which I find unacceptable. I you read the introduction you will that it mentions the fact that he was naturalized French so I don't see the problem with that. If Le Corbusier became famous after he acquired French nationality then he may be described as a Swiss-French architect according to wikipedia policies. But he took French citizenship after he was 40 so apparently this is not the case, although I don't really mind Swiss-French. "Swiss born" maybe a better description (see Albert Einstein for a similar case), but I'm not sure. mgeo talk 13:56, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
    • The claim of a "stable version" is baseless. If you check the history, you'll see that since 2001 there hasn't been a "stable version" but a constantly changing lead including: "was an architect", "French Swiss-born architect", "Swiss-born architect", "Swiss-French architect", with the "Swiss"-only POV pushed by you since 1 September 2010, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. The undue weight given to the nationality of birth which has limited relevance to Corbu's notability is damaging the anyway very poor quality of the article. To my knowledge, his notability is due to his international influence, his architecture of international (non-national) style, his books in French, and his most notable projects in France and India. As previously, it is fair for the lead to state that "was born in Switzerland" once. No need to state it twice. --ELEKHHT 14:40, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
      • The changes you mentioned are very recent, and, as I said above "Swiss-French" looks acceptable to me. Having an international influence doesn't make him less "Swiss", it just makes him more notable, and being born in Switzerland is not the same as being Swiss. mgeo talk 15:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
      • I hope that you will accept this latest revision and agree that it would be "heavy" to state that he was a Swiss citizen born in Switzerland. I think that Lecorbusier's nationality at birth is already very obvious in the introduction. Note that if Le Corbusier had an interest to be considered as a Swiss architect, he would not have accepted French citizenship. I think that any attempt to continue calling him a Swiss architect in this article should be viewed as vandalism because it is not an accurate definition for Le Corbusier.--Christophe Krief (talk) 13:19, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
For international people like this it may seem forced to implement a nationality in the very first line anyway. Why not put this in a second paragraph where there is a modicum of space to explain the matter? No need to shoehorn, is what I'm saying. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 00:53, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Precisely. He's notable for his architecture, urban projects and writings. That he was born in Switzerland or lived in France is of secondary importance. Is wrong to reverse priorities. --ELEKHHT 03:27, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Well... you omit to say that there was an edit war with mgeo who insisted to describe Lecorbu as a Swiss architect. I was only trying to solve this conflict as mgeo's argument was that Lecorbu' Swiss nationality was not well indicated in the article. It seems that mgeo was happy with my revision when bringing the subject of nationality to the first line. I think that the conflictual issue is now solved. If you believe that the article can be improved without generating further conflicts, I have no problem with that. Let see what mgeo has to say on your proposed revision.--Christophe Krief (talk) 11:54, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I appreciate that you wish to satisfy MadGeographer, but note that Wikipedia is not the right place for displaying national pride, and the article should focus on providing a good encyclopaedic description, not satisfy individual editors. The description "Swiss architect" has been reverted many times by a number of editors, and does continue to have no consensus. I think the current introductory paragraph is fair and accurate. --ELEKHHT 21:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

The current lead seems perfectly acceptable: "Charles-Édouard Jeanneret, better known as Le Corbusier (French pronunciation: [lə kɔʁbyzje]; October 6, 1887 – August 27, 1965), was an architect, designer, urbanist and writer, famous for being one of the pioneers of what is now called modern architecture. He was born in Switzerland and became a French citizen in 1930. His career spanned five decades, with his buildings constructed throughout central Europe, India, Russia, one in North and several in South America." The Sound and the Fury (talk) 20:08, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe could be more compact towards the end, and simply state "Europe, India and America", given that Moscow is in the European part of Russia, and having less projects in America is no good reason to increase emphasis by a more lengthy description. -ELEKHHT 21:42, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Go for it. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 16:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Collaborators[edit]

I think this section was actually somewhat helpful [2] because it shows us who his peers and co-workers were. What's the real problem with inclusion here? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 16:50, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Alleged COI in external link?[edit]

User Billinghurst removed the following external link alleging there may be a CoI in it. Would you care to explain where this alleged CoI would come from?

Thanks, warshy¥¥ 15:25, 30 April 2013 (UTC)