Talk:Legal instrument
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Is a Contract of Employment or a Collective Bargaining Agreement a Legal Instrument - like a Will or Act ot Parliament or Deed?
Yes. Though the sense of the phrase doesn't usually include Statutes, I suppose it can. In developed countries unions often negotiate employment contracts with employers, which may be later taken to court for enforcement in case of disputes. ww 18:32, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Type
User:Flibjib8 has twice added this passage:
- Based on their formality, authority, and degree of authenticity, legal instruments can be classified into four categories:
-
- Instruments under hand - validated by signature of author[1]
- simple contract, affidavit, promissory note
- Instruments under seal - validated by seal (and often signature) of author[2]
- covenants, corporate contracts, certificates, letters of authentication, lawyer's writings
- Instruments in solemn form or deeds - validated by signature of author and attesting witnesses
- bonds, wills, conveyances, mortgages, diplomas, powers of attorney, patents, contracts by deed
- Public instruments - validated by signature of author and attesting witnesses and recorded with a public office or employee and bears their seal
- notarial acts, court orders, legislative acts, statutory instruments, vital records
- Instruments under hand - validated by signature of author[1]
The first time, it had no sources. When a {{fact}} tag did not elicit any sources I deleted it. Now it is back, with a self-published source from someone named Kevin Boone, who describes himself as a "scientist, engineer, and educator". This source does not come close to meeting the requirements at Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources.
In addition, I dispute the correctness of the passage. First, these are not good categories because many of them overlap. Second, the claim that deeds are validated by attesting witnesses is false for many states in the U.S. --Jc3s5h (talk) 18:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] References
- ^ "Law Glossary", op. cit., s.v. "instrument under hand", retrieved on 20 May 2009: [1].
- ^ "Law Glossary", op. cit., s.v. "instrument under hand", retrieved on 20 May 2009: [2].
[edit] instrument types
First, let me begin by saying you left me very little time to provide you with sources. Three days might have been nice. I was in the middle of adding sources, of course, when you deleted the section for a second time.
Second, it is important that you realize that a deed has several meanings, one of the oldest referring to a general category of legal instrument, as opposed to its most modern and somewhat more restricted meaning of "title transfer or conveyance", which was originally only one type of deed. U.S. state laws are immaterial (not to mention parochial - remember: this is not an Americans-only encyclopedia) since they only apply to deeds in the title transfer sense of the word. You might like to research the topic yourself; you can begin here: [3] and [4], among others.
Third, I am not sure where you see overlap, but I will say that all require signatures, the last three originally required seals, the last two witnesses, and the last a competent public authority, and in this way, each category builds from the previous one by adding a requirement for validity in order to give the instrument increasing "authenticity", that is, greater evidentiary status at court. Is this your overlap? Or perhaps you mean things appear to be in several categories, like a contract; keep in mind that a contract can be executed in simple or solemn form, that is, as an instrument under hand or a deed (instrument in solemn form), hence the expressions "contract under hand", "contract under seal" (a.k.a. "specialty"), and "contract by deed". This means that some document types do not neatly fit into any one category.
You may have misgivings because the US does not appear to explicitly use these categories or terminology, though the law clearly makes these distinctions.
A good example is a will. Wills have to undergo probate for the sole purpose of guaging their validity which is solely based on how the document was executed. Wills can be in common form (e.g., holographic will - that is, under hand), they can be in solemn form (i.e., they are under hand and witnessed), or they can be in public form (i.e., a notarial will - under hand, witnessed, and attested by public authority (cf. Louisiana, British Columbia, London, South Africa, civil-law jurisdictions)), each one being more authentic in the eyes of the law than the previous one.
Lastly, as far as Kevin Boone's qualifications go, he states quite clearly that he has an LLB [5]; I would therefore consider him a reasonable expert on the subject of law.
Based on all this, would you kindly restore my section.
Flibjib8 (talk) 20:15, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- First, do you know how to create a sandbox? Extensive passages are best created in a sandbox, rather than making large numbers of edits to the article. You can also point people to your sandbox from the talk page to discuss whether the new material is in adequate form to add to the article.
- Second, Kevin Boone does not say he earned an LLB (unless I missed it), he says he "was studying" for his LLB. Whether he actually received the degree is unclear. Furthermore, this statement is on a personal web site and is not verified; We know of no reliable source (like a newspaper or national registry of solicitors) saying he earned one. Even if he did, the standard for using self published sources is that they be "produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" (Wikipedia: Reliable sources). I am not aware that Kevin Boone has published on the topic of law in a reliable third-party publication. I also noticed that his definitions don't have any sources; while I am not a lawyer, the legal publications I've seen usually have extensive citations. This makes me think that while the work may be adequate as Mr. Boone's private notes, it doesn't seem like a reliable legal publication.
- As you say, Wikipedia is an international publication. Sweeping statements should not be made that don't apply everywhere (especially statements that don't apply to large areas of the English-speaking world). If statements only apply in certain jurisdictions, the statements should be so qualified.
