Talk:Lent

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Christianity / Catholicism / Eastern / Anglicanism / Methodism (Rated Start-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Catholicism (marked as High-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Eastern Orthodoxy (marked as Low-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Anglicanism (marked as Mid-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by Methodism work group.
 
WikiProject Holidays (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Holidays, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Holidays on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

External Links[edit]

May I suggest www.pathwaysofprayer.org.uk - a Lent prayer guide from Churches Together in Britain and Ireland, in partnership with BBC Radio 4 and BBC Local Radio? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Church2008 (talkcontribs) 14:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't look appropriate to me. It's not really about Lent as a topic of discussion/analysis, it's just prayers for use during Lent. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 16:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
If you look at the other external links, this is exactly what some of them are - resources relating to Lent. My suggestion would seem to fit with what has been previously accepted. Thanks.

link # 6 "The Restored Church of God: The True Meaning of Lent" is inappropriate. It is a marginal argument from www.thercg.org which appears to be some kind of church in South Africa. Under the page "Who are we" it states:

"The Restored Church of God, led by Pastor General David C. Pack, does teach all the true doctrines of God without compromise, as they were taught to Christ’s Church by the first-century apostles. We are the successors of the original Worldwide Church of God (WCG), which was established in the early 20th century—and we trace our roots to the first-century Church."

Please remove this or allow links to be edited. Starfish 15:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


—Preceding unsigned comment added by Starfish warrior (talkcontribs) 15:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


Unlock[edit]

Unlock this article, please. There is much information missing, and the content is horribly written. 209.55.80.148 (talk) 01:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

If you have specific changes you would like made, you can use the {{editprotected}} template to request them. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 11:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Isn't it possible to just change the opening line to "in some Christian traditions" or "many Christian traditions"? Lent is not universally observed, nor is it a part of all major Christian denominations and practices. Sweeping generalizations like that detract from the accuracy and utility of Wikipedia.74.201.136.2 (talk) 15:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I concur --Andy Howard (talk) 02:47, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Fasting and abstinence[edit]

Virtually certain Lenten fast/abstinence ends Holy Saturday, and not after attendance at Easter Mass, contrary to what article says.--173.22.171.37 (talk) 01:33, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

"When observing fasting or abstinence during Lent, regard must be paid to the fact that Sundays are Feast Days, so the fast or abstinence may be broken."

I've heard this many times, but the only evidence given is that Lent is 40 days without the Sundays, so the Sundays don't count. Isn't this a case of "citation needed"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.184.181.127 (talk) 07:14, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's sort of cited to [1], but I agree a better citation could and should probably be found. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 07:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Unlock ALL of your dumb wikipedia entries. We users should be able to put in the right things, (and our opinions at the LEAST!), freely as we please. That was a dumb change. UNLOCK UNLOCK!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.175.189.234 (talk) 22:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Please fix. This needs to be fixed before next Thursday!

"Lent runs from Ash Wednesday until the Mass of the Lord's Supper, exclusive" (General Norms 28). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.210.49.205 (talk) 06:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Is the phrase "followed by a big fry with no eggs" meaningful to a common reader? It's meaningless to this one... 71.166.14.98 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC).

I was squinting at that phrase too. It seems out of place enough that it might even be previously-undetected vandalism. And, why would they eat this "big fry" right after a smaller meal... doesn't add up in context. Citation needed for sure.Rep07 (talk) 20:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Please could someone look at the line which states that Holofernes asked the Syrian Christians to fast for him to help repel the pagan Persians. The link on "Holofernes" refers the reader to the Biblical Holofernes (a character in the book of Judith), but this is pre-Christian so he couldn't have done! Either the writer said Christians when s/he meant Jews, or it's a different Holofernes (although I can't say I've ever heard of any) and someone needs either to explain who he was, or amend the link. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.70.181.1 (talk) 18:15, 14 February 2011 (UTC)


"On days of fasting, one eats only one full meal, but may eat two smaller meals as necessary to keep up one's strength. The two small meals together must sum to less than the one full meal." At least one site I've seen phrases this a little differently - "Catholics, as a group, are required to fast on only two days of the year - Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. On these days, fasting means something very specific and limited. It means that one eats only one full meal in a day, with no food in-between meals. It is understood that two other meals, if one eats three meals a day, should not total one full meal." Is the rule that the two other meals should be less than one full meal in general, or less than the one full meal eaten on that specific day? This Wikipedia article suggests the latter, while this site seems to suggest the former - http://onlineministries.creighton.edu/CollaborativeMinistry/Lent/fast-abstinence.html

Non-observance of other Christian denominations[edit]

The fact that other Christians denominations don't participate in a Lenten season seems a bit superfluous. Of course, there are Christian denominations which don't practice a Lenten observance, just as there are Christian denominations who don't have Watchnight services, but an entry on Watchnight services doesn't need a line about how other denominations don't have Watchnight services.

Also, is it really considered a reliable source to cite a polemic piece which uses as its reference work, "The Two Babylons?"

That may not be a reliable source, but I do think it's informative to mention which denominations do and do not observe Lent. Readers who know nothing about Christianity may not realize that while Easter and Christmas, for example, are observed by virtually all Christians, a pretty substantial subset of Christians don't observe Lent. —Angr 20:17, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
It is true that 'a pretty substantial subset of Christians don't observe Lent' but nontheless it is misleading to say that Lent is in some Christian denominations the forty day long liturgical season of fasting and prayer before Easter. Lent is a liturgical season in practically all denominations of Christianity whether or not the members of those denominations observe it in practice. It would be useful if the person who wishes to include this phrase in the first sentence would inform the community which Christian traditions do not have Lent in their liturgical calendar. If such traditions are in a minority it is incorrect to retain the phrase in some Christian denominations. 81.109.10.218 (talk) 23:33, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
"Practically" being the operative word. The following Christian sects usually do observe Lent: Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox Catholics, Coptic Christians. Most other Protestant denominations (do you honestly want us to list every single one?) like the Baptists do not even acknowledge it as an official holiday; they (or their predecessors) discarded it (and most other Catholic holy days) in the early days of the Reformation because they felt there were no biblical grounds for its observance. Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate it because it is not found in the Bible; the Amish and most Mennonite sects do not celebrate it for similar reasons; members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (aka: "Mormons") don't observe it and don't even *have* a liturgical calendar; etc. etc. It isn't a part of their Christian observances, not a part of their practices, not a part of their cultures, and to pretend that somehow they're just "ignoring" it is to be either inaccurate or intellectually disingenuous. Here's an interesting excerpt from one of many articles ( http://www.cumberlink.com/articles/2009/02/13/news/religion/doc49946ddaae82b184047224.txt ) about who does and does not celebrate Lent: "However, the vast majority of evangelical denominations, such as Southern Baptists, Evangelical Free and non-denomination churches, do not recognize Lent at all, instead focusing attention on celebrating Easter. Interestingly, these denominations generally refrain from participating in Lent because they do not follow the Christian calendar, a schedule meant to direct sermons and events in the church that correspond to Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Holy Week, Easter, Pentecost and Kingdomtide. Evangelicals traditionally view the calendar as too rigid, and believe God can guide a pastor to preach on subjects unrelated to the calendar during the year, according to the Evangelical Theological Society." Here's a link to another article about non-observance of Lent, this one written by a Lent-observing Protestant: http://www.kencollins.com/question-41.htm
74.201.136.2 (talk) 15:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
There are Baptists who observe Lent, though. The Baptist church closest to my parents' house, for example, is offering Lenten services this year. —Angr 16:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I also found several articles about Protestant sects re-adopting Lent, so that itself might be an interesting sub-section of the article. But as-is, the article seems to assume that all Christians observe Lent and, for the most part, that "Christianity" = "Catholocism".
It would also be interesting to include a history of the creation of Lent as a festival observance too; I study Second Temple Judaism and Early Christianity in a professional, academic capacity and it certainly wasn't celebrated for the first few centuries of Christianity's existence. A substantial subsection within the main article about the historical evolution and adoption of Lent as a festival within the tradition (as well as the subsequent Protestant and post-Protestant rejections of Lent) might help make this article more neutral and a little less...catechistic. Post-Constantine Christian history isn't my area of specialty however, so I wouldn't feel comfortable adding that information myself.74.201.136.2 (talk) 16:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I would like to point out that the above list of observing denominations is rather US-centric - I know from personal experience that the Lutheran Norwegian State Church does not generally observe Lent. Hazlzz (talk) 23:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Last Day of Lent[edit]

In the Roman Catholic Church, Lent technically ends at the beginning of the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper, not at midnight on Holy Saturday.


EXACTLY! "Lent runs from Ash Wednesday until the Mass of the Lord's Supper, exclusive" (General Norms 28).

But the fasting and abstinence associated with Lent still apply through the end of Holy Saturday, right? —Angr 06:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

From what I've read through, in the Catholic church the Lent period officially ends at the beginning of the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper (see http://www.catholicenquiry.com/faq/when-does-lent-finish.html, http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=39082). The period of Lent then makes way for the Easter Triduum. This is correctly listed on the Easter Triduum wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Triduum), so I really think this Lent page should be updated with the correct end date. Apparently the Roman Catholic Church adjusted the dates during the Second Vatican Council (so it says on the Easter Triduum wikipedia page). In terms of the fasting and adstinence, Good Friday is a day of fast but I don't believe Holy Saturday is (however, it is recommended we fast on this day I think). In terms of the giving up of something for Lent, this can be officially finished with Lent on Holy Thursday or it can continue until Easter Sunday (the giving up of something for Lent is more of a voluntary thing from my understanding). However, the continuance of the giving up of something isn't a continuance of the Lent period, it is to celebrate the Resurrection (http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=227598). I've also read that "the Second Vatican Council reminded us to keep the paschal fast throughout Lent until the Easter Vigil, the first Mass of Easter. Nevertheless, we must also celebrate the Triduum really as one saving event which allows us to live in the everpresent reality of our Lord’s last supper, passion, death and resurrection. The Triduum is an even more intensive time of preparation for Easter and brings Lent to its climax." So overall, I think the period of Lent in the Catholic church officially ends at the beginning of the Holy Thursday Mass of the Lord's Supper. The Easter Triduum period then begins which does still involve fasting... etc. Hope that helps! --Gtcfanatic (talk) 01:59, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Request to add resource citation or change wording to match current resource citation[edit]

{{editsemiprotected}} This article speaks of Jesus going into the "desert" for 40 days, when the cited Bible resources say specifically the "wilderness". Where did the word "desert" come from? Either there should be a source cited that uses this terminology, or this wording should be changed to match what the existing resources state.

Here's a quote of the passages:

- Under the Lent heading:

The forty days represent the time that, according to the Bible, Jesus spent in the desert before the beginning of his public ministry, where he endured temptation by Satan.[1].

- Under the Origins heading:

Jesus retreated into the desert, where he fasted for forty days, and was tempted by the devil (Matthew 4:1-2, Mark 1:12-13, Luke 4:1-2).


198.103.184.76 (talk) 13:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC) Jon (I'm not a registered user)

The Greek word ἔρημος is translated "wilderness" in some versions (e.g. King James) but "desert" in others (e.g. NIV). (See [2].) It doesn't make a lot of difference; in that part of the world the wilderness is quite arid anyway. He certainly wasn't in a rainforest! —Angr 14:22, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Changed, as requested. Also I will request that the semi-protected status is revoked ASAP.  Chzz  ►  19:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
I set the semi-protection to expire after Easter Sunday. Once Lent is over, the page will be less susceptible to schoolboy vandalism. —Angr 20:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Origin[edit]

I have removed the speculation in the article that Lent had something to do with spring food shortages. This isn't supported by sources. --macrakis (talk) 23:44, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Request: What are the origins of the practice of Lent in the Christian religions? When was it first officially instituted and by whom? If, as indicated, it was observed in pre-Christian times, was it associated with any feasts or observances? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Techineer (talkcontribs) 05:28, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Reason for Spanish?[edit]

Hi. Is there a specific reason why the article includes a mention to the Spanish term? I can understand including Hebrew, as the custom already existed long before the Christian era. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 17:29, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Apparently it's gotten added back in a couple of times. I took it back out. Hope that's OK. Note to whoever added it: Feel free to revert my deletion if you have evidence that "Cuaresma" is a common name for Lent in English. I won't be offended. 206.208.105.129 (talk) 19:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Removed it again. I already found it suspect, but this comment removed any doubts :). Note that I also removed the supposed Dutch translation, which was even added before the Latin, and incorrect at that (which is easily checkable by following the link to the Dutch Wikipedia). Jalwikip (talk) 07:48, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Counting of the Omer[edit]

Has anyone thought of possible links between Lent and the Jewish Counting of the Omer? Lent is forty days, running up to Easter. The Omer is forty-nine days, and runs from Passover to Shavuot. But there might be more to the picture than just length and time of occurrence. 198.151.130.69 (talk) 01:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know whether or not there is a link between the two, but keep in mind that '40' comes up a lot in biblical stuff. I seem to remember learning that 40 was somehow symbolic of "very many." In the story of Noah, it rained for 40 days, Moses and the people of Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years, Jesus went into the dessert for 40 days. Even though I spent a number of years in a Jewish household I didn't remember that the Omer was 40 days.PurpleChez (talk) 17:23, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Does the concept of abstaining from some foods have any connection to the fact that Jews don't eat leaven on Passover? Pedantrician (talk) 22:32, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

End of Lent[edit]

I thought the end of Lent was understood to end on Holy Thursday? Any thoughts? The article says on Holy Saturday or Easter morning. I am looking for sources now... Pax85 (talk) 00:26, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Lead[edit]

I removed "Lent is a time a sacrifice for Jesus" from the lead paragraph. It sounds devotional, not encyclopedic. Also, the Lead should say "Lent in the Western Christian tradition, is the period of the liturgical year from Ash Wednesday to Easter," as some of the Eastern traditions reckon the dates differently, and there's even a disambiguation link "For Lent in Orthodox Christianity, see Great Lent" that touches on this, and it is also mentioned elsewhere in the text. Just a thought. PurpleChez (talk) 00:10, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Need for reference to Ember Days[edit]

This article has a section entitled "Other related fasting periods", but this does not mention the Ember Days of the Christian year. It would be good if it did that - after all, some of them fall during Lent. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:28, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

As I recall reading, 2 of the 4 sets of Ember Days fall in the weeks which start with 1st Sunday of Lent and with Pentecost. The other 2 fall in September and December. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 18:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

rewording of section about "Gloria in Excelsis Deo"?[edit]

At this writing, there is:

>In the Roman Catholic Mass, Lutheran Divine Service, and Anglican Eucharist, the Gloria in Excelsis Deo is not sung during the Lenten season, disappearing on Ash Wednesday and not returning until the moment of the Resurrection during the Easter Vigil. On major feast days, the Gloria in Excelsis Deo is recited, but this in no way diminishes the penitential character of the season; it simply reflects the joyful character of the Mass of the day in question. It is also used in the Mass of the Lord's Supper.

Is there some difference between singing (the Gloria in Excelsis Deo) and reciting? Assuming not, how about contracting to something like this?

In the Roman Catholic Mass, Lutheran Divine Service, and Anglican Eucharist, the Gloria in Excelsis Deo is not used during the Lenten season (except on major feast days and on Holy Thursday), and does not otherwise return until the moment of the Resurrection during the Easter Vigil. Use of the Gloria in Excelsis Deo on major feast days in Lent in no way diminishes the penitential character of the season; it simply reflects the joyful character of the Mass of the day in question.

This suggested rewrite also allows for the pre-Lent season (pre-1970 Catholic missal), where Gloria in Excelsis Deo is not used except on feasts (thus the removal of "disappearing on Ash Wednesday"), and also I recall it IS used (at least in the pre-1970 Catholic missal) in Holy Thursday Mass of the Chrism, which is a different Mass from that of the Lord's Supper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 18:47, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

lent[edit]

Lent is the period of 40 days which comes before Easter in the Christian calendar. Beginning on Ash Wednesday, Lent is a season of reflection and preparation before the celebrations of Easter. By observing the 40 days of Lent, Christians replicate Jesus Christ's sacrifice and withdrawal into the desert for 40 days. Lent is marked by fasting, both from food and festivities.Whereas Easter celebrates the resurrection of Jesus after his death on the cross, Lent recalls the events leading up to and including Jesus' crucifixion by Rome. This is believed to have taken place in Roman occupied Jerusalem.

The Christian churches that observe Lent in the 21st century (and not all do significantly) use it as a time for prayer and penance. Only a small number of people today fast for the whole of Lent, although some maintain the practice on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. It is more common these days for believers to surrender a particular vice such as favourite foods or smoking. Whatever the sacrifice it is a reflection of Jesus' deprivation in the wilderness and a test of self-discipline.

Why 40 days? 40 is a significant number in Jewish-Christian scripture:

•In Genesis, the flood which destroyed the earth was brought about by 40 days and nights of rain. •Moses fasted for 40 days before receiving the ten commandments on Mount Sinai. •Jesus spent 40 days fasting in the wilderness in preparation for his ministry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.255.190.70 (talk) 10:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Observed by other Christian denominations[edit]

Is Lent not observed by other Christian denominations to the ones listed, such as Baptists or Congregationalists?ACEOREVIVED (talk) 14:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

incomplete[edit]

This article needs quotations and citations to the oldest references to Lent and its basic observances. The discussion of interpretations of the number 40 don't apply to this since they have nothing to do with actual Lent, just to Christian scriptural use of the number 40. 71.163.114.49 (talk) 13:26, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Recent addition to lead about atheists and Lent[edit]

I just removed the following sentence from the lead: "Today, some atheists who find value in the Christian tradition, also observe Lent." I did this because I felt it placed undue weight on atheists observing Lent when there aren't sources that indicate this is a widespread practice - the way it was placed after a sentence about the denominations of Christianity that observe Lent made it seem like it was on equal footing. Also, that the lead is supposed to be a summary of the most important aspects of the article according to WP:LEAD, and this information isn't mentioned in the body of the article. Maybe mention of atheists observing Lent could be put in the body of the article somewhere, although I think undue weight is still a concern - as I said, the cited source doesn't claim this is a widespread practice, so it might just not be notable enough to include. Any other thoughts on this? Cheers, Dawn Bard (talk) 15:35, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Totally agree with you - good job. HammerFilmFan (talk) 10:17, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Editors come in to highjack this article by making sure their religious tradition is included, which is OK but completely dispels the brevity and readability of the article. By general rule, Lent customs are derived from the Catholic Church. Orthodox begins theirs a week earlier, but is generally the same. 2606:6000:80C1:6900:84B:49D8:1AD1:157E (talk) 00:20, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

What's wrong with this material, eh?[edit]

Regarding this:

In the modern era, some Christians in the [[Anabaptist]] and [[Reformed churches|Reformed]] traditions, as well as some [[evangelical]] Christians, have also incorporated Lent into their tradition as well, joining Anglicans, Catholics, and Lutherans in the celebration of this liturgical season.<ref name="Mennonite">{{Cite book|url = http://www.thirdway.com/menno/glossary.asp?ID=121 | title = Mennonite Stew - A Glossary: Lent|publisher=Third Way Café|quote=Traditionally, Lent was not observed by the Mennonite church, and only recently have more modern Mennonite churches started to focus on the six week season preceding Easter.|accessdate =24 February 2012}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|last=Brumley|first=Jeff|title=Lent not just for Catholics, but also for some Baptists and other evangelicals|url=http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-03-12/story/lent-not-just-catholics-also-some-baptists-and-other-evangelicals|publisher=The Florida Times Union|accessdate=03/03/14}}</ref><ref name=Meeks>[http://books.google.com/books?id=--Wv5kiq-RoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Season of Ash and Fire: Prayers and Liturgies for Lent and Easter BLAIR MEEKS] December 01, 2013 | ''In recent years Christians from the Reformed branch of the Protestant tradition have begun to recover a practice that dates in the Western church at least to the tenth century. That is to begin Lent on the Wednesday before the First Sunday in Lent with a service of repentance and commitment, including the imposition of ashes. The Lutheran and Anglican traditions, of course, never lapsed in this observance.''</ref>

It looks OK to me; what's the problem with it, then?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 04:18, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Not forty days[edit]

On the talk page of another article, someone asked where the forty days comes from. Nowhere in this article does it say forty days from Ash Wednesday to Easter does not include Sundays, though it does say 38 days (Sundays not included) for Catholics who end Lent on Maundy Thursday.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:20, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Vchimpanzee, I've tried to incorporate your point in the article. I hope this helps! If not, feel free to modify the edit as needed. Happy Easter, AnupamTalk 21:19, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. I think that works.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 15:26, 21 April 2014 (UTC)