Talk:Lhoka (Shannan) Prefecture

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Lhoka/Shannan prefecture?[edit]

This page was moved by 虞海 from Shannon to Lhoka, with not discussion here, the edit summary noted Wikisource:Zh:少数民族语地名汉语拼音字母音译转写法 and Wikisource:Zh:中华人民共和国民族区域自治法. Unfortunetly my knowlage of the Chinese language is limited to reading menus. The article was not changed, or maybe only partly changed to reflect the change in name of the article. I have no idea if this is a valid change, but I do think it deserves more of an explanation. --Keithonearth (talk) 06:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry not to have gotten any response, but as such I don't see any option but to move the page back to Shannan Prefecture from Lhoka Prefecture. Especially as no content that I have seen has been updated to reflect the name change, and without an English explanation for the name change. If I'm mistaken in doing this, please feel free to explain here why the name should be changed, and we can do a proper job of making the change. It doesn't seem apropreate to move the page without leaving some sort of explanation here though. Thanks! --Keithonearth (talk) 07:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
user:虞海, has again moved the page to "Lhoka". As such it looks like it was not done as vandalism, but I am still very confused as to the reason. What am I missing? The edit summery says "only in edit summery in Chinese"? Didn't you see "According to the Chinese laws, using official Tibetan transcription. Using Tibetan transcription, not Chinese transcri..."? My issues with this move is that the need for the change is not being communicated here (on this talk page), and that none of the content of this page, or any other page has been updated to account for this change. A reader would be confused why the article on Lhoka was talking about Shannan. user:虞海 please give us more info. --Keithonearth (talk) 04:21, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry I replied so late. The name of Lhoka/Shannan seems to be not clear after a more careful reading of Wikisource:Zh:少数民族语地名汉语拼音字母音译转写法, when I wanted to translate part of it into English.
  • It says that if part of Chinese translation is transcription and part of the Chinese translation is translation-by-meaning, the translation-by-meaning part should be written in Hanyu Pinyin in English and the transcription should be written in that way (少数民族语地名汉语拼音字母音译转写法, Tibetan Pinyin, UPNY/ULY, etc.). However, if the entire Chinese translation is translation-by-meaning, it didn't mention what we should do.
  • it also says "circumstances alter cases". --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 05:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move at this time (revisit after discussion on Tibetan Naming conventions). --RegentsPark (talk) 12:11, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Lhoka (Shannan) PrefectureShannan Prefecture — Relist Vegaswikian (talk) 21:06, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

The name of the prefecture is, according to the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, in the English language Shannan. See on their geonames server. Matthiasb (talk) 04:36, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Oppose It's Chinese prefecture. In Wikipedia we should use the official name of Tibet Autonomous Reigon, i.e. Lhoka (Shannan) Prefecture or Shannan (Lhoka) Prefecture. There's no reason to use National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency's name: it US's name is acceptable, should we use a UK name? --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 08:29, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
According to this article by Nicolas Tournadre, even Tibetan people usually refer to the prefecture as "Shannan". It appears to be the common English name as well as the common native name. Why not use that?—Greg Pandatshang (talk) 01:52, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
  1. What you mentioned mighted be overseas Tibetan. According to Chinese law, overseas Chinese (incl. overseas Tibetan)'s habit is now protected.
  2. Common name might not be official name.
--虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 09:05, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
What the Naming conventions for Chinese actually says is, "Mainland China place names should be in Hanyu Pinyin. Place names in Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, and overseas (such as Singapore) should be romanized in whatever way is commonly used for those places. Same goes for non-Han Chinese place names. So use Hohhot, Kashgar, and Shigatse, not Huhehaote, Kashi and Rikaze. (呼和浩特、喀什、日喀则)". It's said this for a long time. There's also a disputed tag on it.—Greg Pandatshang (talk) 04:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
What the official guideline of naming of PRC says is, "其他特殊情况具体斟酌处理", i.e. guide nothing for this case. However, in an official encyclopedia of Chinese geography, "(Lhoka) Shannan Diqu" is the official name. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) (talk) 09:05, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Yes, but the question is do we romanise from the Manadrin Chinese name, or from the Tibetan name? If the Tibetan name, do we use Tibetan Pinyin or Wylie? The naming convention is unclear. The reference you pointed to is even more unclear: we are told to use Shigatse, which does not appear to fit any of the transliteration systems from either Tibetan or Mandarin Chinese. The confusion has left us with Shigatse, but Xigazê Prefecture, using different transliteration systems for the city and prefecture of the same name. The whole question of Tibetan, Uyghur, Mongolian and other local language names really needs sorting out, with clear guidelines. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:34, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
We simply don't have an accepted naming convention for any of those other languages. It's not clear to me that we need one, when we can simply fall back on common names. "Shigatse" is a good example. No systematic romanisation would produce that spelling, and yet it is a very well-established conventional spelling that is by far the most likely to be familiar to readers of English. I believe the logic that produces Xigazê Prefecture is that the conventional spelling is conventional vis a vis the town, but the prefecture is something else, and it's a modern Chinese creation, so a different spelling might be predominant. A guideline would be useful for more obscure names, I suppose. So far, obscure locations in the PRC and PRC government units are usually transcribed in Tibetan Pinyin (e.g. "Xigazê").—Greg Pandatshang (talk) 04:34, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

New proposal for Tibetan naming conventions[edit]

Partly in response to discussions on this page, I put up a new proposal for Tibetan naming conventions. Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Tibetan) and Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Tibetan)#New naming convention proposal. This could affect the title that is eventually decided for this article. Your comments and feedback are requested.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 23:34, 25 April 2010 (UTC)