Talk:Liao dynasty/Archive 3

Downgraded to "Start" class

I have downgraded the rating of this article to Start, as it is almost entirely unsourced. When I have time, I will begin to remedy this issue. Sven Manguard Wha? 06:01, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Overhaul

Reorganization proposal

Implemented. Sven Manguard Wha? 00:50, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Greetings other 46 people watching this page. This article is a mess, and I'd like to... well... fix that. I'd like to start by reorganizing the article, so that its sections look more like those of the other Dynasty articles. Below is the outline I generated. If no one objects, I'm going to make this change in 48 hours. If someone does object, we can work out a revised org tree of course. A look at the edit history of the article, though, indicates to me that this will be the most attention that the article will have seen in years, so I'd be surprised if anyone responds to this at all. (Not that I'd mind bringing making the improvement of this article a group effort. Revised tree 1. History 1.1 Khitans before Abaoji 1.2 Rise of the Liao (incl. Succession issues) 1.3 Delcine (incl. Emigration) 2. Government 2.1 Law and administration (incl. Chinese acculturation) 2.2 Foreign relations 3. Society and culture 3.1 Religion 3.2 Role of women 3.3 Literacy 4. Science and technology 4.1 Architecture Everything that's in the article now will be preserved, just moved around. Architecture is a new addition. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:34, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Old sources

• Jacques Gernet (1972). "A History Of Chinese Civilization". Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-24130-8
• Mote, F.W. (1999). Imperial China (900-1800). Harvard University Press. pp. 31–91.
• Wittfogel K.A., Feng Chia-Sheng History of Chinese Society. Liao (907-1125). Philadelphia, 1949 (Transactions of the American Philosophical Society, new series, 36)
• David Curtis Wright (2005). From War to Diplomatic Parity in Eleventh-Century China: Sung's Foreign Relations With Kitan Liao. Brill Academic Publishers. p. 290. ISBN 978-9004144569. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |langue= (help)
• Wang Gungwu, "The Rhetoric of a Lesser Empire: Early Sung Relations with Its Neighbors" in Rossabi, Morris, ed. China Among Equals: The Middle Kingdom and its Neighbors, 10th-14th Centuries. University of California Press, 1983, pp. 47–65.

Hyatad

It probably should be mentioned somewhere that the name Khyatan (Khitan) became the basis for the name Khyatad, which is the name for China in Mongolian. --chinneeb-talk 20:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm rewriting this piece by piece, based on the sources that I have available. This probably could be worked into the 'Khitans before Abaoji' section, which coincidentally, I've yet to rewrite (I have to rewrite everything from scratch because there were no in-text citations before I started). If you can find a source for this, feel free to either add it in yourself, or if it's an online source, link me to it and I'll build it in. Thanks, and feel free to help with the rewrite if you have time. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:02, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Population

At its height: 750,000 khitans ruling over 2-3 million Chinese.

• Ebrey, Patricia Buckley (1996). The Cambridge Illustrated History of China (1st pbk. ed.). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 166. ISBN 9780521669917.

 Done Sven Manguard Wha? 21:59, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Eight weeks under construction?

How much longer is this article going to be under construction? If you read Template talk:Under construction and -THESE- -THREE- -TFD- discussions you'll see that while the consensus still exists to have such a template available for editors, its use can give the appearance of raising WP:OWN policy issues. This is particularly the case if the uc template is left in place for more than a week, which it has in this case. According to the article history, Sven Manguard (talk · contribs) added {{Under construction}} on February 1, 4465 days ago. I welcome Sven's contributions but I am hoping Sven's changes can be split into batches, introduced piecemeal, and only rarely accompanied by "under construction" notices. Thanks. 72.244.206.138 (talk) 12:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I can't work on it every day, but there very much needs to be a notice on the top of the page stating what my comment states. I can open up my copy of Imperial China: 900–1800 and see, section by section, where the previous author copied the text in the article from. The article really should have been deleted and rewritten from scratch, but that's not a viable option. Sven Manguard Wha? 13:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Put the same notice in a custom Imbox. Does this solve the issue? Sven Manguard Wha? 13:52, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I see..I was distracted by your use of template. It was right for you to remove the uc template then, since its your discovery of the close paraphrasing that identifies the important issue. The WP:PARAPHRASE essay offers advice about what to do in this situation. You should take a look at that essay if you haven't already done so, and come to a judgment as to whether or the close paraphrasing rises to the level of copyright infringement; if you still conclude it doesn't, just continue correcting the problem at your own pace. Meanwhile, I'm putting {{Close paraphrasing}} at the top of the article; that template refers readers and editors to the talk page for more details; it looks to me like #Reorganization proposal and this section already provide those details. Thanks 72.244.206.160 (talk) (aka 72.244.206.138) 23:06, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Copyvio situation

• This article has been listed at Copyright problems since June 16th. Can anyone confirm if this is still a problem? If there still remain significant chunks copied verbatim or very closely paraphrased from Imperial China: 900–1800, they must be removed immediately and re-written later. Voceditenore (talk) 15:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, it's still a problem. However I spoke with Maggie Dennis and we agreed that it wasn't bad enough to fall into nuke-the-text territory. I'll get around to fixing it eventually. Sven Manguard Wha? 16:12, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, yes, and please don't touch it right now irregardless, I'm editing it. Sven Manguard Wha? 16:21, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for letting me know. I'll leave a note at the Copyright problems entry to let other clerks know about the situation. Voceditenore (talk) 16:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)